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Comments
It makes no real difference to us what the credit price is in gold. We do care about managing the sinks and faucets in the gold economy, and part of the price of credits in gold is reflective of that, but the actual exchange rate itself doesn't really matter to us. That's you guys collectively deciding what your time vs. your money is worth, denominated in gold. After all, you don't have to buy credits with gold. There's another currency you can buy credits with - US Dollars - and in that currency credits have gotten cheaper every single year since Achaea opened.
The in-game economy would have to be well and truly screwed for that kind of intervention to occur, however. Probably one of the best ways to deal with the kind of inflation we're seeing is to make more gold sinks, as has been stated in the thread numerous times.
Skye does have a strong point though about new player retention. If the gold price of credits is allowed to get out of control, new players will be left with a simple choice... pay money to play a game they are not yet invested in, or go elsewhere.
I realize there is a degree of selfishness here. We are all screaming "Won't someone please think of the children!" while we also want the market to be reasonable so that we can advance more easily. I don't deny it. But I can say that I came to Achaea with a very large group from another MUD about two years ago during the good old days when the price of credits was around 6.1k. Even back then, most of my compatriots deemed Achaea to be too monumental a grind. They failed to connect with the game because the time-investment to reach a point where they could DO something fun was simply too insurmountable for them. Many of us did in fact purchase no-brainer lesson packages, but transing a few class skills still leaves you pretty lost in a world as demanding as this and there are very few plateau's between the base of the mountain and its peek.
It seems from what I'm reading that the price of credits is not being dictated by how much time we as players are willing to invest but rather by how certain gold generating methods (that could be called exploits) are being used to scoop up the available pool of credits and are accessible only to the highest levels. Most of us don't stand a chance against an artificial curve like that and some newbie trying to earn 500 gold by helping out auntie Maim certainly doesn't. Try telling that newbie they need to compete with people earning 100k+ an hour...
And while players who do not buy credits with money are understandably not as valuable as players who do, the size of Achaea's playerbase is in fact one of its most attractive features. Very few muds in 2016 can boast the number of players that Achaea can. Those who do wish to buy creds with US dollars will surely be more likely to do so on a thriving game where they feel they can gain an edge on us grinders. It isn't as if the Minia experience by itself does much of anything to capture the imagination of a new comer, who does not even get to see what a masterpiece of coding and design Achaea really is (apart from its current economy) until they are MUCH further along.
I know I'm not saying anything to you that you don't already know but it is exactly because I AM invested in the game that I feel the need to present a case for some kind of intervention on some level.
Like, if we assume that people who will pay for their tri-trans skills(assuming tri-trans being the basic thing we want to make accessible for all players), will almost always choose to acquire them with dollars as opposed to grinding hours, then it becomes possible to have a solution specifically targeted for the people who are unable to pay.
Matias's solution above seems really good as it has a ceiling of 5000 lessons (about tri trans). The cost of the lessons are not affected by rising CFS prices. Beyond the 5000 lessons, no more price protection.
A couple of things, instead of 1000 gold per lesson, which calculates to 8500 gold per credit including the 2.5 bonus lessons, maybe cut that to half, to 500 gold per lesson. Also, treat them as special lessons that cannot be acquired wholesale but limited to a certain amount per year(maybe 500), so those who wants to make use of those lessons have to be a little patient. Those who can't wait, can just pay with dollars or use regular CFS. Lastly these special lessons should only be good for class skills / maybe survival if they are to be catered only for initial accessibility.
Possible consideration:
- People who do not pay right now, may pay later in the future when their real life situation transitions. So retaining them now might pay off.
- If the game is made more accessible, it can generate good feelings, which may in turn encourage people to support the game more.
- Each player adds to game in all kind of ways, even those who do not pay, and this indirectly helps the company garner more revenue.
If we consider more on indirect or future revenue as opposed to direct revenue, then maybe subsidies aren't so bad?
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Of course I am assuming alot of things. Maybe it has all been considered and found wanting. Still gonna post this though, just in case.
I only sell credits on CFS. Not sure if I have ever purchased credits from CFS. I ... threw away all of my money when I was younger and sunk it into Achaea. Thousands of dollars. So now Goryllin lives on that largesse while I personally can't really afford that kind of investment any more (especially into a text based game that I Suck at).
But I hate bashing and I hate walking around and I am pretty terrible at all aspects of the game. So I still pk, because that's the character type I play, but I have to support that by selling credits purchased off the website.
(Also, I like saying screw you to the credit market and selling abnormally low). God, this just makes me realize how terrible I am at everything, including min/maxing or making a profit.
New gold sink ideas are welcome, but definitely not any movement that penalizes hard work.
If only people cared this much about inequalities in real life.
I agree with the step to lower the inequities by removing braid at the very least.
Granted there are exceptions, those who hunt places they can't easily survive, or those that manually bash everything, but still. Bashing is far from "hard work". It's just time-consuming.
That said, I am a little shocked at how many people think reducing high level grinding would be a good thing. That's a little absurd, and would severely reduce the incentive to even develop higher level techniques for it. Although perhaps with the insane numbers people are boasting here I can understand, so maybe I should clarify.
Outside of relics and ahmetite use, I am extremely skeptical that anyone is regularly generating more than 150k/hour with any sort of consistency. I've timed it, and from what I can tell, the highest gold yield zone I can farm, I farm marginally faster than anyone else does. If I could somehow farm it non-stop, which I can't because it takes an hour to respawn and only 8 minutes to clear, I could make around 150k/hour. But I can't, because it's not available that often and it's the highest yield place I frequent.
Now, if UW/Annwyn produce more than that, I am actually okay with that because of the high risk associated with those areas, although I am skeptical that they do. I have not timed them since the changes though, maybe it's time I do.
Still, 100k to 150k per hour at the highest level in the game, with a clearly sizable time investment to get to that point, is not that unreasonable is it?
I've been thinking about a way to decrease gold supply on the high end, while increasing gold supply on the low end that won't drastically alter how people generate gold. Obviously, bashing is going to be the "bread winner" in terms of gold generation, but we can't unilaterally decrease or increase gold drops in areas. Increasing gold drops in Manara (typically a lower level hunting ground), will only increase the number of higher level people that hunt there, as the gold per hour is higher than another area that is harder to hunt. At the same time, if you gut the production of somewhere like Annwyn, then it makes the area much less attractive to hunters and thus you increase the crowds at other places.
Someone mentioned a scaling based on level, and I think that actually could work.
For instance:
Level 1: 150% gold generation per mob (mob drops 100 gold, level 1s get 150 gold instead)
Level 10: 145% gold generation
Level 20: 140% gold generation
Level 30: 135% gold generation
Level 40: 130% gold generation
Level 50: 125% gold generation
Level 60: 120% gold generation
Level 70: 110% gold generation
Level 80: 100% gold generation -- level 80 has always been the "baseline" for things in Achaea
Level 90: 90% gold generation
Level 100: 80% gold generation
This model would accomplish several things at the same time:
Decreased gold generation on the high end by a fairly small margin of 20%
Increase gold generation at all points under level 80, increasing the buying power of non-dragons
Decreases the invisible "wall" of the grind for lower people, as they can actually hunt up fairly decent gold per hour.
This would be balanced considering anyone over level 90 can hunt for longer, and more areas, to still generate a decent amount of gold, while still being slightly less than before.
In regards to the high-end options re: ahmetite, golden braid -- they have their own limitations inherent to themselves. I think reducing the gold generated on the base level will bring both of them in line as well.
This scaling effect would only affect the buying power of the high end negatively, while positively impact the buying power of all other levels, from what I can see.
Also, another issue quite simply is the "power creep" that Achaea has currently. A lot of people have been playing for a long time, and amassed tons of credits and/or gold troves. Retirement helped alleviate this slightly, as anyone who retired (I assume) lost their gold in doing so. However, I would have to also assume that most of them gutted CFS with their gold prior to finalizing retirement to begin with.
I would suggest a one-time per player ability to purchase bound credits directly from the game with gold. Literally a one-time thing where if you have 20,000,000 gold and nothing to do with it - you can purchase bound credits from the game at the current average credit price on the market. I think this could help alleviate the vast wealth that long-established players currently have. While many people grind specifically to purchase credits from the market, some people don't need the credits and have these amazingly high sums of gold lying around. When something shiny or nice comes out, they gut the credit market with their gold, and purchase whatever it is they are looking for. Adding a way to burn your gold, and still get the credits without burning the credit market directly, seems to be something that needs to be added.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
- Golden Braid and Ahmetite bonuses are going to be scaled back.
- Many of the old "give <x> to <y> for <z> gold" quests (especially in higher-level areas) are going to get reworked to be less loopable (stopping double-dipping of gold from drops and quest rewards).
Naturally, we're going to continue working on new ideas for things to spend gold on as well!Step 2: Buy up all the stock.
Step 3: Everyone forgets how broken it was and it's readjusted, making the value skyrocket and making me rich.
Step 4: Spend all that gold on the new gold sinks and cry that I'm no better off.
I, personally, don't feel there is a need to step in and do anything at all. Let the game evolve in this area, and players will adapt. Everyone always wants everything cheaper. It's human nature. There will be complaining, but that's better than penalizing players who advance.
Credits can, and probably should, be bought more OOCly anyways. That helps fund the game, while keeping the price per hour for each credit at a more reasonable rate. I'd much rather give from $0.27 to $0.49 per credit anyways.
Most people here are calling for additional gold sinks. More things to spend money on, be they luxury items, interesting features of the game, or new goals to achieve.
How can you honestly come to the conclusion that just nerfing the higher level players is a good idea? Shouldn't you be aiming to incentivize your players instead?
If high level stuff is scaled back and low level stuff is kept where it is, newer plays can generate a larger amount of gold relative to older players, reducing the pretty massive divide that exists between anything pre-90 and anything post-90.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
If the regular high-end hunting is 120k per hour on average, dropping that to 90-100k instead isn't a drastic change.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
If someone spends a lot of time ironing out minute inefficiencies and driving their clear times down, why shouldn't they be rewarded for that?
It's a fair critique to say that not everyone is represented here, absolutely. I personally can average 100-120k an hour pretty easily. While I'm not necessarily indicative of the norm, potentially, I'm also not in the "highest of the high" end, either. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that Dragons are averaging anywhere from 80-120k an hour. One run of Annwyn alone is ~85k if you do the quests (not saying people hunt there regularly, since they don't).
For the most part, people are just spitballing ideas and seeing what sticks. It's totally acceptable to speak out against them and have logical discourse in regards to what should or should not be done. However, being realistic and honest is required as well.
In regards to competitiveness, that's actually not true. Battlerage changes have reduced competition for areas, as areas take longer to clear. It's also not harder to hunt that it used to be, it takes more than just typing gut 20,000 times though.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
As someone who had over a million gold in his bank account from questing by level 70 it wasn't too hard to make gold as a new person. If you take the time to explore, find the quests, and plan things out you can be immensely profitable. If you want to put in the base level of effort and grind Manara or your org hunting lists and wonder why you cannot get exceptional returns then that's probably why.
If you want to make 20K gold a hour as a newer player it is entirely possible, and a great introductory sum of gold, but you need to do a little bit of legwork. The admin have built a huge expansive world with a ton of hidden nooks and crannies, but a lot of people in my experience have no idea about it because they have never explored outside a small set list of areas that others have provided for them.