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Ideas for gold sinks and IG credit prices

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  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think you're entirely wrong, Jhui. There might be other factors, but as someone who checks cfs constantly... the supply just isn't there in comparison to the demand. Plus there are some big time credit hoarders out there (I know some). The credits MIGHT be out there, but they're not exactly being put up a whole lot. Then you take into account the massive demand for arties, multiclass, tradeskills, etc... those types of purchases that don't put the credits back into the market. 7k per credit might become our new "normal" for a while.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aerek said:
    Credit prices are more a function of gold generation than of gold circulation, and when the actual gold supply is infinite via bashing, you can't really create scarcity with new gold sinks unless they're mandatory gold sinks that everyone must pay into on a regular basis, since that actually hits folks' rate of wealth accumulation. Problem is, that just ends up hurting the same folks you're trying to help; the new and the poor.

    I agree that ethereal shrouds should be purchasable with gold, but that has nothing to do with the credit market.

    Totally spot on. More precisely its the high-end gold generation that is a problem. Very high level dragons (Im talking about you Penwize and Seragorn) can generate so much gold it's obscene.  That's even before gold drop multipliers like the Golden Braid and ahmetite started appearing.  Or the endurance and willpower recovery items that essentially let you bash forever, or the balance and eq recovery items that make you bash twice as fast.  Not to mention all the artefacts to make you better at tanking and give you massive damage (which is then multiplied by crits!)  The net effect of all these stacking effects is that certain heavily artied, high level, efficient bashers can generate about 500k per hour. Compare that to myself - who is mildly artied, relatively high level (~105) and a lazy basher and I can get about 50k per hour.


    So if you want to get cfs under control that's really what you have to look at (Sorry Seragorn - don't hurt me!)

    Blujixapug
  • MatiasMatias Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2016
    If someone can get 500k an hour, or even anywhere near I would be shocked.
    Atalkez
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not seeing how you can do 500k an hour, unless there's somewhere with drops 3 or 4 times better than Annwyn out there.
    AtalkezExelethril
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,799 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    yea, even going Gold Braid + Ahmetite in UW/Annwyn with luckbinder, war veil, + rare minerals to maximize efficiency, the most I've made in an hour is about 250k
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    With ahmetite I can get 130k an hour. With golden braid and ahmetite, 160-170.

    I don't think anyone is popping 200-250k an hour unless you're using rageblade. 

    Jhui is absolutely right, though. The number of people selling credits versus the number of people buying credits is substantially lower. If it was higher, we would have lower prices. It's simple economics on that point.

    It's the same as minerals. When 1 person is making them, the price is dictated by them. When 100 people are making them, the price is crowdsourced and it drops due to competitors. It's the same with credits. As less people sell them, and more people look to buy, the value/cost is going to go up. 


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Dochitha
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Colour me crazy, but what if a flat gold to lesson conversion was added into the game? The exorbitant lesson cost of multiclass loans itself well to a rapid, mostly high-end depletion of gold from the game's economy without affecting low-level players too much. It also provides a direct, tangible means for character progression within the game at a base level without the involvement of credits, which would largely be relegated for artefact purchases.

    It'd be a pretty big paradigm shift, though.
    AereidhnaArador
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Colour me crazy, but what if a flat gold to lesson conversion was added into the game? The exorbitant lesson cost of multiclass loans itself well to a rapid, mostly high-end depletion of gold from the game's economy without affecting low-level players too much. It also provides a direct, tangible means for character progression within the game at a base level without the involvement of credits, which would largely be relegated for artefact purchases.

    It'd be a pretty big paradigm shift, though.
    Sarapis has vetoed anything that would staple down the gold/credit conversion rate. If there was an established gold/lesson conversion, and credits convert to lessons 6:1, then the gold value of credits will have been set just the same. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the big guy has already said no.
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    You could remove the credit>lesson conversion, swap it to gold-only and let your CFS go to work for you.

    If you want to trans your third class, and buy the 2000 credits or whatever to do it, you then need to liquidate those credits for the gold for the conversion rate. This would drive down credit prices everytime someone is doing this, since the amount of lessons required are so high.
    They'd end up changing the bound credits you get through leveling to lessons, which will piss people off down the road when they hit 100 and are omnitrans and want their thirty-some bound credits instead. Then again, I'm 100% in favor of having a few extra lessons for lower credit prices, therefore 100% behind this idea.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1000 gold for a lesson, problem solved.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    10 million gold for your third class? Seems a little cheap, to be honest.

    Edit: Actually doing the math at a 6000 gold per credit conversion, the ~10,000 lessons required is still 10 million gold using the current credit conversion method. 1cr = 6 lessons. 10,000/6 = 1666.67 - 1666.67*6000 = 10,000,000


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    10 million gold for your third class? Seems a little cheap, to be honest.
    Looking at CFS right now it would only cost you 11 or 12.
    Huh. Neat.
  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aegoth said:
    yea, even going Gold Braid + Ahmetite in UW/Annwyn with luckbinder, war veil, + rare minerals to maximize efficiency, the most I've made in an hour is about 250k

    My numbers are likely outdated - as it's anecdotal - but even 250k an hour is still a pretty good clip. Nevertheless my point stands- it's not the intersection of just the supply of gold versus the supply of credits that sets price. It's the summation of the intersection of everyone's gold supply versus everyone's credit supply at the margin.  This might seem like hair splitting - but its at the heart of what's causing cfs to go up.  Let me explain (warning economics ahead) - Posit two market participants - Skarash the dopey dragon, and Seragorn the Bashing Machine. Both the Dopey Dragon and the Bashing Machine want credits.  The dopey dragon looks at his purse and says hmm I believe a fair price for credits is 6k - I will buy any and all credits available to me on the market at that price no problem.  The Bashing Machine agrees with the Dopey Dragon - he also wants credits at 6k. The Dopey Dragon and the Bashing Machine are now in market competition and assume they split the market evenly.  The Bashing Machine goes hmm, I am making 250k gold an hour that's a much higher rate then that Dopey Dragon, and I want more credits. Bashing Machine decides that he will now buy credits at 6500. Bashing Machine has now shifted the supply/demand curve at the margin from 6k to 6,5k.  At this point the Dopey Dragon must decide whether he wishes to shift his buy price to 6500 and continue price inflation or to allow Bashing Machine to get a relatively bigger supply of the market.  But at some point, x because Bashing Machine is earning gold faster then Dopey Dragon, BM will reach a point where he can buy and DD can not!  Does this mean that DD is locked out of the market? Actually no- Dopey Dragon can and still does buy any credits presented to him at what he considers fair value. It's just that at the Dopey Dragon pricepoint of 6k he is competing not only with Bashing Machine, but everyone else who feels that 6k is fair value. It's this price competition (gold) for limited resources (credits) that is the mechanism driving average cfs up - and it's a competition that will be won by those with the ability to generate gold the fastest.
    Atalkez
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Skarash said:
    Aegoth said:
    yea, even going Gold Braid + Ahmetite in UW/Annwyn with luckbinder, war veil, + rare minerals to maximize efficiency, the most I've made in an hour is about 250k

    My numbers are likely outdated - as it's anecdotal - but even 250k an hour is still a pretty good clip.
    You are right about your post, but I will say that this isn't anywhere close to a normal hour of bashing.

    100-120k is more normal for a Dragon, depending on crit (10 WSC vs 7 over the hour, etc). You don't get into the 150-200 range until you're popping all the rare minerals and you're using Relics - which open you up to being attacked and can very easily destroy your GpH when you get ganked by three dudes 10 minutes into your hour session.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Skarash said:
    Aegoth said:
    yea, even going Gold Braid + Ahmetite in UW/Annwyn with luckbinder, war veil, + rare minerals to maximize efficiency, the most I've made in an hour is about 250k

    My numbers are likely outdated - as it's anecdotal - but even 250k an hour is still a pretty good clip.
    You are right about your post, but I will say that this isn't anywhere close to a normal hour of bashing.

    100-120k is more normal for a Dragon, depending on crit (10 WSC vs 7 over the hour, etc). You don't get into the 150-200 range until you're popping all the rare minerals and you're using Relics - which open you up to being attacked and can very easily destroy your GpH when you get ganked by three dudes 10 minutes into your hour session.

    Just to be clear I'm not saying it's normal - in fact it's extreme - but it's the extreme edges or the marginal rate that you have to look at.  See my Bashing Machine vs Dopey Dragon example above.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Skarash said:
    Atalkez said:
    Skarash said:
    Aegoth said:
    yea, even going Gold Braid + Ahmetite in UW/Annwyn with luckbinder, war veil, + rare minerals to maximize efficiency, the most I've made in an hour is about 250k

    My numbers are likely outdated - as it's anecdotal - but even 250k an hour is still a pretty good clip.
    You are right about your post, but I will say that this isn't anywhere close to a normal hour of bashing.

    100-120k is more normal for a Dragon, depending on crit (10 WSC vs 7 over the hour, etc). You don't get into the 150-200 range until you're popping all the rare minerals and you're using Relics - which open you up to being attacked and can very easily destroy your GpH when you get ganked by three dudes 10 minutes into your hour session.

    Just to be clear I'm not saying it's normal - in fact it's extreme - but it's the extreme edges or the marginal rate that you have to look at.  See my Bashing Machine vs Dopey Dragon example above.
    No, I get that. Like I said, you were absolutely right in the post in regards to how the situation plays out.

    Was just pointing out that, that gold generated per house isn't accurate, for the sake of anyone else who stumbled across the thread and thinks "wow I'm only getting 10k per hour, fuck this game".


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ValkynValkyn Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If you're consuming rare minerals in the quantities you'll get to see 200k p/hr at, you're going to be spending quite a bit of gold or losing the sale value of those minerals. Sure if you spend 200k on rare minerals and you have the golden braid you might be able to make 200k in an hour.. but.. why would you do that?

    Arador
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Skarash, you're mostly right about the competition for credits, but there's an entire other side of the equation that is where the solution probably lies.  Gold has an inherent value in what it's capable of purchasing, and as that inherent value increases, the propensity for gold generators to spend their gold on non-credit purchases increases.  Likewise, the propensity for credit holders to want to sell their credits to make gold purchases also increases, as the value of gold increases.  Our problem right now, by a very wide margin, is that gold does not have enough value to have a bigger sway on this market.

    You can see it in action in a lot of other games that have direct premium-to-regular currency markets, like Guild Wars, Warframe, etc.  As the items that are only available via the in-game currency increase in perceived value, the in-game currency also increases in value and it pushes the premium currency's value down to equilibrium.  This happens regardless of power players' in-game currency production rates (and let me tell you, in games like that there are some people who produce at a level that would make Seragorn or myself look like kindergartners.)

    How do I think that should be approached?  Well, I do currently agree that more gold purchases are necessary.  I think that some of the SoW items (shrouds, elixirs, heron feathers) should be all be available at a gold premium instead of crowns, and that there should be more of these sorts of things.  Yes, I acknowledge that one change will not affect the credit market in a large way, but there will be no single shift that will solve it (except ones @Sarapis and @Tecton have already stated they do not want to explore, such as a gold->lesson conversion or a gold->bound credit conversion).  I think mining had a lot of potential to be a gold sink, but it produces WAY too many commodities to be a venture worth engaging in for the majority of the population, because the commodity market has essentially crashed and supply so vastly outstrips demand.  Either commodity demand has to be significantly increased, or mine production needs to be significantly reduced.  I think any new in-game systems that are added should all look at how they can create gold sinks as well, and I do not agree that only a mandatory credit drain will have an effect on the economy.  There's a high demand on luxury purchases in the game as they're added, and they're a great avenue for generating gold demand.

    Now, all that said, I do still think there is room for improvement on the gold-generating end.  I do not agree with simply hard nerfing the gold production capacities of anyone, that will either discourage them from playing or affect everyone in a manner that will wind up netting no overall effect.  I think alternative rewards with similar perceived value are a good place to start.  Talismans had a huge amount of potential, and if they replaced gold in a lot of places they could have had the ability to drastically alter the gold and credit markets.  However, that wasn't the direction the admin decided to go with them, and that's something I really disagree with but that's their call.  I think features like talismans (or more talismans) that are useful to the players while costing gold to generate (even via bashing), rather than generating gold, are a good solution to limiting the production of gold.

    I might try to brainstorm some solutions, but I'm not really sure that would be worth the effort if the game's developers aren't interested in investing the time needed to implement additional features that will right the market.  Do they even perceive this as a problem that could use some addressing?
    AtalkezExelethril
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The problem with mining as far as I can tell is that when it didn't produce a ridiculous excess the forums were constant crying about how there's not enough and this system sucks etc.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    Valkyn said:
    If you're consuming rare minerals in the quantities you'll get to see 200k p/hr at, you're going to be spending quite a bit of gold or losing the sale value of those minerals. Sure if you spend 200k on rare minerals and you have the golden braid you might be able to make 200k in an hour.. but.. why would you do that?
    Well, you wouldn't do it that way.

    You buy the ahmetite for 25-30k. Buy the willpower and/or endurance regen for 25-30k. Total investment: 50-60k or 75-90k depending on what you bought.

    You get Golden Braid (somehow, assuming no one in Ashtan is alive to hound you for it) - you go to wherever you're hunting (preferably something that takes you about an hour to clear to get full effect of the ahmetite - time between areas is killer when using these) and you eat the +gold to start: Gross bashing -25k at 0 minutes.

    Assuming it was an area that normally provides roughly 80,000 gold (Annwyn, for reference) then in that hour you're looking at an income of roughly 150,000 gold. Slightly less than double. Subtract your expenses (25k), and you're still up nearly 40% from before.

    Rinse and repeat, add an extra 25k expense when you need to regen your wp or endurance.

    You don't get into the really broken gold generation until you're using Rageblade and clearing all of Annwyn, Underworld, Tir and Moghedu in an hour.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The solution, clearly, is to delete relics (and maybe ahmetite)
    Blujixapug
  • ValkynValkyn Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Yeah, but my point stands, I will give it was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not as broken as people are implying as these things are expensive.

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    40% bonus to net gain is pretty broken, not sure why you're claiming otherwise.
  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Penwize said:
    @Skarash, you're mostly right about the competition for credits, but there's an entire other side of the equation that is where the solution probably lies.  Gold has an inherent value in what it's capable of purchasing, and as that inherent value increases, the propensity for gold generators to spend their gold on non-credit purchases increases.  Likewise, the propensity for credit holders to want to sell their credits to make gold purchases also increases, as the value of gold increases.  Our problem right now, by a very wide margin, is that gold does not have enough value to have a bigger sway on this market.

    Oh I happen to agree with you - I was just illustrating the mechanism which drives cfs inflation is not simply gold supply (of which there's still a lot but has been going down). But yes you are right - gold does not have value - aside from buying credits - there are not enough other realistic uses for gold. 
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Actually, to the ahmetite problem, there's a decent solution to that I think.  Give it an IG month cooldown on eating another ahmetite, so that its effects are more spread out.  That might also help it gain a sort of "daily quest" feeling, which does help motivate some people to take advantage, while also limiting those who use it constantly.

    I'd actually say that could apply to all the rare minerals: each rare mineral can only be eaten once per IG month.


    As for the golden braid, that thing needs additional owner-changing conditions, similar to the life giver, so that people can't quite sit on it for hours on end completely unchecked.

    I'd also like it if relics actually did what they said they do in the help file, and occasionally spend time in the Reliquary.  In all my time playing, I have never seen a relic inaccessible due to it being in the Reliquary.  To limit them, perhaps a relic should be sent to the Reliquary for some time after being on a player for two or three hours.
  • ValkynValkyn Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kiet said:
    40% bonus to net gain is pretty broken, not sure why you're claiming otherwise.
    40% bonus is what you'd get from the braid alone, so I'm not sure why you're saying it's strange that when you include it in your calculations you get a 40% bonus.

  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    One thing I'd like to mention, which contributes to the problem though not nearly as much as what's been mentioned, is (some/most) people's absolute unwillingness to trade things like crated pets, talisman pieces, etc. for gold instead of credits. There are exceptions, and you may be one of them, but I've come across plenty of people who refuse to take gold, even if it's equivalent in value.
    Huh. Neat.
  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Because gold fluctuates and wildly- the real currency is credits.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Skarash said:
    Because gold fluctuates and wildly- the real currency is credits.
    Except we're talking about an economy with only two currencies, and a semi-standard (if ever-increasing) exchange rate. At the current market rate, if I offered someone 350000 gold (7k per credit * 50 credits) for a minipet they were selling for fifty credits, there's virtually no reason that they should decline such a trade.
    Huh. Neat.
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