Ideas for gold sinks and IG credit prices

Grandue

I seriously think making lessons purchasable by gold and removing the ability to convert credits to lessons will solve a huge part of the current situation. Right now credits are used for artifacts and multi-classing. Two things people will likely continue to purchase until they stop playing. There is very little that gold is used for comparatively. Ships, curatives, weapons, clothes, food, commodities for housing, but I can tell you from my own experience as one of the wealthier Achaeans that for every 1 gold I spend on curatives or weapons or clothes I spend a thousand gold on credits for artifacts/lessons. 

Gold sinks are good but ultimately they don't really last and people go back to purchasing credits for artifacts/lessons. They tend to be bandaid fixes, not long-term fixes. Allowing you to both buy lessons with credits and gold wouldn't work, it would essentially be the same as putting a ceiling on credit prices which is a terrible idea, but ONLY allowing you to buy lessons with gold wouldn't have the same effect. The credit market would still rise and fall as people purchase credits for artifacts and customizations, novices would have a standard price for purchasing lessons and they wouldn't be influenced by the seasoned veterans who buy up all the credits.

Anaria

Newbies trying to learn their third class skill should not be in direct competition with level 100's trying to earn their third class. Gold for lessons does seem to be the answer.

Sarapis

Penwize said:

  Mining was a good attempt, but the numbers are very imbalanced and don't wind up producing the effect they should

I've heard you say this twice, but you're either fundamentally misunderstanding how mining works, or fundamentally misunderstanding how faucet and sink economies work. 

100% of mining is a gold sink. 

Penwize

Sarapis said:

Penwize said:

  Mining was a good attempt, but the numbers are very imbalanced and don't wind up producing the effect they should

I've heard you say this twice, but you're either fundamentally misunderstanding how mining works, or fundamentally misunderstanding how faucet and sink economies work. 

100% of mining is a gold sink. 

Yes, mining is a gold sink, and I've never disputed that.  I've used it several times as an example of what gold sinks are and can be.  However, due to how it's balanced currently, it is not as effective a gold sink as it could be.  The commodity market is flooded, which has driven supply of commodities way beyond the demand for them.  As a result, people aren't mining as much as they would be if there was a market for the commodities that mining produces.

Sarapis

Josoul said:

 Bashing gold is next on the list of nerfs now, brought to you by the uninformed legions!

They're not uninformed at all. There's no question that the gold earning ability of the people at the top causes gold to be worth less for everyone. It's a small economy, and therefore it's fairly easy for a tiny group of people to have a far outsized effect on the value of gold.  

PS: CFS spike also affected by the recent promos focused on non-credit purchases (three months in a row even, stockings, lessons, tokens), the main reason in my eyes since such promos while they still bring revenue dont add credits in the game. 

Yep. I'd completely agree with this statement. It's a pretty simple equation. Less immediate credit supply = credits cost more when denominated in gold. Similarly, more gold generation = credits cost more when denominated in gold.

Jhui

mining also replaced a gold sink right (gold sank into denizen commshops)?  Wasn't just a brand new gold sink.  Just a better one?

Sarapis

Penwize said:

Sarapis said:

Penwize said:

  Mining was a good attempt, but the numbers are very imbalanced and don't wind up producing the effect they should

I've heard you say this twice, but you're either fundamentally misunderstanding how mining works, or fundamentally misunderstanding how faucet and sink economies work. 

100% of mining is a gold sink. 

Yes, mining is a gold sink, and I've never disputed that.  I've used it several times as an example of what gold sinks are and can be.  However, due to how it's balanced currently, it is not as effective a gold sink as it could be.  The commodity market is flooded, which has driven supply of commodities way beyond the demand for them.  As a result, people aren't mining as much as they would be if there was a market for the commodities that mining produces.

You have it backwards. The fact that people are mining commodities way beyond the demand for them is exactly why it's a better gold sink than the comm shops were. That excess represents the increased gold drain over simply producing what the market wants ala comm shops. Increasing demands for comms would, of course, increase that gold sink, but that's irrelevant to mining - that would be the case whether they were sold in denizen shops, gotten by tossing a lucky coin into a well, or mined for.

Sarapis

Jhui said:

mining also replaced a gold sink right (gold sank into denizen commshops)?  Wasn't just a brand new gold sink.  Just a better one?

Correct, yep. It replaced it, though it's better as a gold sink than commshops were.

Frederich

I mean.  I'd be happy if I could buy lessons with gold and credits couldn't be turned into lessons directly.  (Though binding them to turn them bound would still provide lessons, right?)

So.  I'd love to see being able to buy lessons at a good rate because then you have two types of commodities.  Credits can provide minimal lessons (2.5 lessons up to 1000, then no more).  Gold provides lessons (7-8 per average market cost of a credit?).  However, Credits can be converted into gold by the market, etc.  It'd be nice..

The market does seem to be sorta fine, as is though.

Penwize

Sarapis said:

You have it backwards. The fact that people are mining commodities way beyond the demand for them is exactly why it's a better gold sink than the comm shops were. That excess represents the increased gold drain over simply producing what the market wants ala comm shops. Increasing demands for comms would, of course, increase that gold sink, but that's irrelevant to mining - that would be the case whether they were sold in denizen shops, gotten by tossing a lucky coin into a well, or mined for.

Well, that's not quite what I'm arguing though.  The people that are mining now even beyond demand would still be mining if they weren't keeping up with demand.  However, if they weren't keeping up with demand, then other people would get into mining who currently aren't because it's not a worthwhile venture for them.  I'm not saying that mining isn't operating as a good gold sink right now, I'm saying it's not operating as well as it could be if there was more demand for what it produced (or conversely, less supply drowning out what little demand there is).

Kiet

Kayeil said:

Many Annwyn hunters do Sidhe, maybe Unsidhe, and leave the rest alone. I see a lot just do Sidhe because they don't like the afflictions on the Unsidhe part. Also, a lot of dragons don't just hunt for hours on end. One that is purely a hunter isn't going to benefit from buying a bunch of classes, nor are they going to benefit from as many artefacts that are available as PKers will. If you're going to penalize dragons, then you need to penalize PKers, because they're the ones eating up CFS more than anybody. Also, if dragons are going to get penalized every single time cfs spikes a little, then there needs to be some new incentive that isn't just another talisman set... something more substantial that makes one want to keep playing and hunting. Nerf after nerf on one group of individuals isn't good for player retention in that group, and doesn't make obtaining that goal all that desirable to begin with.

This is pretty nonsensical tbh. How are you going to 'nerf PKers' as far as gold income goes? PKing generates no gold, the most you can do is nab someone else's gold if they forget to put it in their pack.

This and some of the other replies in the thread are pretty blatant knee-jerk 'DONT TAKE AWAY MY GOLD' reactions, and they're 100% not constructive, tbh. I understand no one wants to get nerfed, obviously, but I mean... all that's been said so far is nerf braid/ahmetite and nerf some of the more loopable quests. That's not going to ruin anyone's bank account. People lived before braid/ahmetite just fine.



I don't believe lessons for gold is a realistic idea. Gold auctions/sow items  for gold are the least IRE-profit-touching ideas I've seen in this thread for gold sinks, but I imagine we should just focus on proposing more ideas rather than arguing about how much hard work goes into bashing.

Kayeil

Kiet said:

Kayeil said:

Many Annwyn hunters do Sidhe, maybe Unsidhe, and leave the rest alone. I see a lot just do Sidhe because they don't like the afflictions on the Unsidhe part. Also, a lot of dragons don't just hunt for hours on end. One that is purely a hunter isn't going to benefit from buying a bunch of classes, nor are they going to benefit from as many artefacts that are available as PKers will. If you're going to penalize dragons, then you need to penalize PKers, because they're the ones eating up CFS more than anybody. Also, if dragons are going to get penalized every single time cfs spikes a little, then there needs to be some new incentive that isn't just another talisman set... something more substantial that makes one want to keep playing and hunting. Nerf after nerf on one group of individuals isn't good for player retention in that group, and doesn't make obtaining that goal all that desirable to begin with.

This is pretty nonsensical tbh. How are you going to 'nerf PKers' as far as gold income goes? PKing generates no gold, the most you can do is nab someone else's gold if they forget to put it in their pack.

This and some of the other replies in the thread are pretty blatant knee-jerk 'DONT TAKE AWAY MY GOLD' reactions, and they're 100% not constructive, tbh. I understand no one wants to get nerfed, obviously, but I mean... all that's been said so far is nerf braid/ahmetite and nerf some of the more loopable quests. That's not going to ruin anyone's bank account. People lived before braid/ahmetite just fine.



I don't believe lessons for gold is a realistic idea. Gold auctions/sow items  for gold are the least IRE-profit-touching ideas I've seen in this thread for gold sinks, but I imagine we should just focus on proposing more ideas rather than arguing about how much hard work goes into bashing.

More levels in between multiclass slots, limit on how many one can have, etc. I'm sure one could come up with a lot of ideas to deter PKers from making cfs skyrocket because they're the ones who are the main part in why it's going up and up and up, yet it's the bashers getting penalized. Not every hunter is a PKer, we don't all need multiclass, or all the artefacts to boost several classes at once. So while the PKers buy up all the credits, the hunters are taking the blame and getting the penalty when no other group is.

Edit: Also, I wasn't really for nerfing hunting OR PK. I was just saying, the hunters -always- take the penalty when something happens. Something like lessons being bought for gold instead of credits would help a LOT and make a nerf not really be neccessary besides maybe ahmetite and relics.

Aegoth

Kayeil said:

Kiet said:

Kayeil said:

Many Annwyn hunters do Sidhe, maybe Unsidhe, and leave the rest alone. I see a lot just do Sidhe because they don't like the afflictions on the Unsidhe part. Also, a lot of dragons don't just hunt for hours on end. One that is purely a hunter isn't going to benefit from buying a bunch of classes, nor are they going to benefit from as many artefacts that are available as PKers will. If you're going to penalize dragons, then you need to penalize PKers, because they're the ones eating up CFS more than anybody. Also, if dragons are going to get penalized every single time cfs spikes a little, then there needs to be some new incentive that isn't just another talisman set... something more substantial that makes one want to keep playing and hunting. Nerf after nerf on one group of individuals isn't good for player retention in that group, and doesn't make obtaining that goal all that desirable to begin with.

This is pretty nonsensical tbh. How are you going to 'nerf PKers' as far as gold income goes? PKing generates no gold, the most you can do is nab someone else's gold if they forget to put it in their pack.

This and some of the other replies in the thread are pretty blatant knee-jerk 'DONT TAKE AWAY MY GOLD' reactions, and they're 100% not constructive, tbh. I understand no one wants to get nerfed, obviously, but I mean... all that's been said so far is nerf braid/ahmetite and nerf some of the more loopable quests. That's not going to ruin anyone's bank account. People lived before braid/ahmetite just fine.



I don't believe lessons for gold is a realistic idea. Gold auctions/sow items  for gold are the least IRE-profit-touching ideas I've seen in this thread for gold sinks, but I imagine we should just focus on proposing more ideas rather than arguing about how much hard work goes into bashing.

More levels in between multiclass slots, limit on how many one can have, etc. I'm sure one could come up with a lot of ideas to deter PKers from making cfs skyrocket because they're the ones who are the main part in why it's going up and up and up, yet it's the bashers getting penalized. Not every hunter is a PKer, we don't all need multiclass, or all the artefacts to boost several classes at once. So while the PKers buy up all the credits, the hunters are taking the blame and getting the penalty when no other group is.

Edit: Also, I wasn't really for nerfing hunting OR PK. I was just saying, the hunters -always- take the penalty when something happens. Something like lessons being bought for gold instead of credits would help a LOT and make a nerf not really be neccessary besides maybe ahmetite and relics.

Yep. All those Cyrenian PKers ruining the credit market. Fucking PKers

Medi

Penwize said:

Sarapis said:

You have it backwards. The fact that people are mining commodities way beyond the demand for them is exactly why it's a better gold sink than the comm shops were. That excess represents the increased gold drain over simply producing what the market wants ala comm shops. Increasing demands for comms would, of course, increase that gold sink, but that's irrelevant to mining - that would be the case whether they were sold in denizen shops, gotten by tossing a lucky coin into a well, or mined for.

Well, that's not quite what I'm arguing though.  The people that are mining now even beyond demand would still be mining if they weren't keeping up with demand.  However, if they weren't keeping up with demand, then other people would get into mining who currently aren't because it's not a worthwhile venture for them.  I'm not saying that mining isn't operating as a good gold sink right now, I'm saying it's not operating as well as it could be if there was more demand for what it produced (or conversely, less supply drowning out what little demand there is).

I think there's just a lot of slack right now in how much comms are produced. I'm sure it would be really tedious to try and code in something to balance it out to optimal perfection, so as an alternative I would suggest periodically looking at some of the excess availability in comms and having 'droughts' where that comm doesn't spawn. Maybe for a whole decade! (Stone)

Sarapis

Sarapis said:

You have it backwards. The fact that people are mining commodities way beyond the demand for them is exactly why it's a better gold sink than the comm shops were. That excess represents the increased gold drain over simply producing what the market wants ala comm shops. Increasing demands for comms would, of course, increase that gold sink, but that's irrelevant to mining - that would be the case whether they were sold in denizen shops, gotten by tossing a lucky coin into a well, or mined for.

Well, that's not quite what I'm arguing though.  The people that are mining now even beyond demand would still be mining if they weren't keeping up with demand.  However, if they weren't keeping up with demand, then other people would get into mining who currently aren't because it's not a worthwhile venture for them.  I'm not saying that mining isn't operating as a good gold sink right now, I'm saying it's not operating as well as it could be if there was more demand for what it produced (or conversely, less supply drowning out what little demand there is).

Well, that's pretty much what I described above, and has nothing to do with mining. You're just talking about adding additional gold sinks, to which it's irrelevant how comms are produced, whether via mining, comm shops, or tossing a lucky penny into a magic well. It would also make little difference. If there's more demand, there will be more miners producing the comms. 

Penwize

Sarapis said:

If there's more demand, there will be more miners producing the comms.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  More miners producing the comms means more miners sinking gold into mining, meaning there's more gold being removed from the system.  If it's removing more gold from the system, it's acting as a more effective gold sink.  That's especially true if those additional miners are happy to do so, because it's netting them profit or entertainment.

Sarapis

Penwize said:

Sarapis said:

If there's more demand, there will be more miners producing the comms.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  More miners producing the comms means more miners sinking gold into mining, meaning there's more gold being removed from the system.  If it's removing more gold from the system, it's acting as a more effective gold sink.  That's especially true if those additional miners are happy to do so, because it's netting them profit or entertainment.

Yes, but it's also completely irrelevant to the mining system. You're talking about comm sinks, not mining. The mining system doesn't care what form the comm drains take.

Penwize

Sarapis said:

Penwize said:

Sarapis said:

If there's more demand, there will be more miners producing the comms.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  More miners producing the comms means more miners sinking gold into mining, meaning there's more gold being removed from the system.  If it's removing more gold from the system, it's acting as a more effective gold sink.  That's especially true if those additional miners are happy to do so, because it's netting them profit or entertainment.

Yes, but it's also completely irrelevant to the mining system. You're talking about comm sinks, not mining. The mining system doesn't care what form the comm drains take.

I mean, it still is pretty relevant to the mining system if there isn't enough demand for the amount it produces isn't it?  Adding comm sinks is one approach external to the mining system, but another approach to net the same effect is to reduce mining production to bring it more in-line with demand, which is a modification to the mining system itself.

Seragorn

Funny how every time credit prices spike, even if its just for a short time this conversation comes up.  It pretty much (as Josoul pointed out) always lines up with credit promotions that steer away from the traditional credit reward, nobody buys credits, they buy spins, or previously globes lead to it.  Clearly things like multiclass are going to put upward pressure on credit prices as well though.  I'm surprised they haven't skyrocketed further and quicker than they have.

I'm a big fan of the idea of having lessons available for gold in game, its friendly to novices because their learning rate is no longer biased by the current credit market prices.  If lessons could ONLY be bought with gold then it would put a high need item in as a gold sink and still help drive credit sales, because that would still be the best 'quick fix' way to access high speed gold for lessons.  Is a relatively quick fix and I cant really see a downside to it..

To weigh in on the whole bulk hunters pushing up cfs prices.. I actually haven't been buying credits lately, I've just been stocking gold, currently at 5 mil for the simple sake of not wanting to pay 7k per (6.5k is my current price point).  I'll also add that my current gold intake (despite relics, ahmetite, etc) is nowhere near the levels it used to be.  Having those relics does give you burst access to gold, but it also causes conflict which distracts you from hunting, and this is a good thing, they were introduced as a means for those who wanted more avenues of conflict.  The more relics you hold, the more likely you are to get ganked and in higher numbers.

Its quite common to go out hunting and get yourself 150k in half an hour, but then spend the next 2 hours fighting to try and get them back, where if I hunted without them I would have likely dragged in 400-500k over those 3 hours instead.  I'm not against a nerf to these things, I'm more capable than anyone to hunt for gold without them, and if anything I would just be out more often rather than short bursts for roughly the same result.

I'm, strongly against nerfing hunting gold intake of dragons tho.. That's the end game for many, I'm here because I enjoy the grind to earn the credits to buy more artifacts, get more classes.. take that away and I lose a lot of interest, and I'm sure there would be plenty more dragons who are in a similar position.

I also think you'd find that limiting the relics to 1 per person and the like would probably end with them sitting on Ugrach and crew 100% of the time.  I'm not saying I want them solely, and I do try to share them, but if Ugrach had 5 relics sitting on him, I guarantee I'm not gonna go die 20 times to just end up with 1 of em, it just aint worth it.  The fun with them is the accumulated affect, and as I mentioned earlier its very rare to have an accumulation of them for an extended period of time.

Seragorn

Wow, I just realised that's just my 6th post.. I should forum more.

Tahquil

@Seragorn: Seven now!

Antonius

@Kayeil If you're not the ones buying the credits why does it matter if you can suddenly buy a few less credits per hour? What do you need all of that gold for?

Kayeil

Antonius said:

@Kayeil If you're not the ones buying the credits why does it matter if you can suddenly buy a few less credits per hour? What do you need all of that gold for?

You're assuming we have a lot stockpiled.  I personally don't have much right now. I have a debt to repay, which I am working on. I don't bash like I used to. However, what is it to you what I'm spending gold on? I have an out of subs plot, a ship, a shop to run that only makes enough to cover the expenses from selling inks, I like buying minipets and mounts when they come out and they always make me go broke when they do. I'm not a heavily artied individual.

Edit: Also, gold isn't as easy to amass as it used to be. It already takes more time. The denizens are a lot stronger than they used to be, meaning less areas cleared in an hour. We don't need to keep getting nerfed again and again to the point where people stop caring to bother playing anymore.

Kiet

The denizens being stronger thing resulted in more gold/hour, not less. That and braid/ahmetite were a direct buff to gold gain, so complaining about counteracting them is a bit odd.

Kayeil

It resulted in more, then it got reduced. Have you tried Tir Murann since it got changed? Did you see the noticeable change in drops from Annwyn? A lot of them were buffed, then decreased... making it pretty tedious for hunting grounds to be so slow to get through. I'm not complaining about ahmetite or golden braid being nerfed since I don't even use them, but nerfing quests/hunting was also brought up by the admins. Maybe you people should learn to read what I'm saying before say I'm complaining about things I'm not.

Also, I'm clearly doing more than my fair share of dumping money into gold sinks. I rarely purchase things that are hunting advantages, and since I don't do PK I am not buying arties to make combat any better for me. I like collecting old items and collectables from Bazaars and events. I'm not the problem, most dragons aren't. It's the PKers destroying the CFS, and having lessons being bought with gold is the best option to counteract that.

Katsuragi

Morsul said:

As someone who's main IRE game is Lusternia (currently, our average credit price is 40k, up from 30k from February, up from around 25k from January), let me chime in:

Lusternia gave lots of monthly promotions and artifacts that produced things like commodities, curios (talismans, I think, in the Achaean translation), coins for spins on their version of the Wheel, etc. It has come to the point wherein these freebie-giving items gave way for people to get even more freebie-giving items, and now there are players who regularly get, on average, 2 million gold per RL week.
 
Surprisingly, goods (curatives, clothes, etc.) went into an even deeper price deflation (owing to the aforementioned freebie-giving items, plus the fact that the these same items allowed more people to get more tradeskills, which pumped a lot of supply into the market). On the other hand, the gold bloat drove up credit prices to somewhere along 33% every month.

The small price increases may seem small now, but it can quickly snowball into uncontrollable proportions. You'd want to take a close look, and address any problems that come up, before it comes to that point

PS Note, the 2 million gold I mentioned did not include the Wheel spins. I don't know if there's a difference in how the Achaean Wheel and the Lusternian one are coded in terms of prizes given, but the Lusternian one had really bad 'bad' spins, but also really good 'good' spins (very few 'just fine' spins). The really good spins coughed out expensive artifacts, which lessened the need for people to buy credits (previously the only way to access these artifacts). As a result, though, there are less credits circulating the market, which exacerbates the problem.

QFT. Achaea's gold-credit situation is fine. In fact, it's better than fine with the org credit sale system.


[off-topic rant]The gap between the haves and the have-nots in Lusternia is almost as bad as it is in the United States. What's even more tragically hilarious is that most of the "1%" there has no idea how to make gold "honestly" anymore since they have so much freebie-producing stuff they can use THAT to make a steady income. And the income from that is better than it is from bashing/questing/influencing! 

I dusted off a Lusternian character I've had lying dormant since ~2014 and was asking around how to get gold. Nobody could tell me and instead they just threw huge amounts of gold at me and were like "that'll tide you over" or "yeah, I make that much in like a week [of doing nothing] with this [freebie generator]".






And this character is level 95, max city rank and highish Guild rank. I can't imagine how the novices get treated.  [/off-topic rant]

Matias

Lessons for gold wont happen without a heavy restriction because it will take away from the bottom line. I like playing achaea, so I am cool with this because as was stated they are a small company, and they need to earn the money they earn.

Of course nerfing quests will work to reduce the gold in realms. If you turn down a faucet, less water will be present. The question is will it be noticeable. I wont be happy because I get quite a lot of gold when I hunt from throwing my corpses at quest denizens, but sometimes you just have to take it on the chin, I wont be going hungry after all.

I hear a lot of "but the newbies, wont somebody think of the newbies!", but honestly, the newbies will be fine with however it is. Iron elite makes it very affordable to get cheap credits/lessons, the no-brainer packages are a godsend, and for those who cannot use a credit card/afford these things, there are org credits. I also feel that the poor newbie angle might be more self-serving than it appears, but regardless, newbies will be "competing" with upper level bashers for credits, just like they always have.

As to the point of people saying the credit market is unwieldy, check yourself before you wreck yourself! It is a fluid market, there is no entitlement to a credit price. As the CFS price rises, this is GREAT for the people who sell on CFS. Why should it only be the people who buy that are considered when it comes to these things? If the price is too high for you, don't buy. Seragorn said he hasn't bought because it is too high for him, so it is obviously possible. You can either look for a bulk deal on market, or wait patiently for a potential return to "normalcy".

Kayeil

The thing about asking for hunting ground nerfs... these top tier bashers are persistent and great at what they do. If they want to earn something they are going to go out there and work their asses off and get it. No matter what you do, they're going to earn more than everyone else. Thing is, you keep nerfing the hunting then they're going to find ways to make up the difference in income. How? Taking up and camping more hunting grounds. Taking fewer breaks and hunting longer hours. Then you'll really have something to complain about, and those who begged for the nerfs will have themselves to blame for putting the pressure on those top tier bashers to work even harder. You're not solving any problems with hunting nerfs, with the exception of relics and ahmetite. It's been said time and time again, cfs cannot sustain the demand of retirement, multiclass, and the option of even more tradeskills. Something that addresses the high demand for lessons and class artefacts would be far more beneficial, and a longer term fix to the issue.

Kiet

You can't address the high demand for lessons and artefacts without hurting IRE's business model though.

Sanna

Kiet said:

You can't address the high demand for lessons and artefacts without hurting IRE's business model though.

Yeah. You have to remember that IRE is running a multi-person company off of the revenue that no more than several thousand players generate. That requires extraordinarily high revenue per person (at least by today's micropurchase standards), and means that that have to be careful about anything that will harm the demand for credits. What is better for the 'game' and what is better for the continued existence of Achaea are not always the same thing.