The new houses and their role in the modern day Achaea

Shirszae

Tvistor said:

To this day, I haven't disagreed with Tael on anything and think he has hit things on the head as usual. Incidentally, I've only seen multiclass talked about twice in-game, and it has been in very immersion-breaking terms, mostly to do with things like damage output and which class is the 'best' rather than what makes sense. Trying to work out the optimal combination before spending your money is perfectly fair, but makes me think it was a bad idea. But hey, I guess it's done and people have paid for stuff, so that ship has sailed.

But people already talk about what class is the best and such. Sure there are gripes to be had and the like, but talking about class in a relative out of character manner is far from something that came with Multiclass. The only difference is that now instead of (some) people saying, "I am going to quite this class because that class is so much more awesome," they say, "I am going to multiclass into that class because it is so much awesome." Like the wording, the difference is rather minimal, and hardly the fault of multiclass itself.

Tvistor

There's some merit to that argument, but I think that multiclass encourages thinking about classes in that way. It's a mechanic that just doesn't really make sense, so I don't even know how you would discuss it IC unless you picked two classes similar enough that you're just throwing money away.

There's no reason any of these changes had to have particular negative repercussions and I can't empirically provide data demonstrating an increase in the incidence of metagame-y class discussions, but that's just my experience. If you're personally fine with it, that's not wrong .

Sobriquet

When we had Guilds classes meant something, now they are nothing more than a tool you use to meet a designated end. Not saying that's bad, but Guilds I felt had a certain importance because it was inextricably linked to the class.  Now, I honestly can't see the need to have houses at all. 

Exelethril

Well, I guess it was a calculated risk to "freshen" things up. I remember when the old Houses seemed to be getting stale and everyone was so hyped about new beginnings. Seems like things have made a 360 without much consideration of the time scale!

Tvistor

RIP standing outside Shallam while Tanris fed us experience in return for mashing snipe. Those were the days.

Dairon

Returning from a long dormancy has lead me to come across the same issues posted above. I understand the frustration of doing things again (over and over), and the need of having a system that doesn't have as many check-list requirements. However, as this is a game with RP values, I think a few requirements and some time spent as a novice (or equivalent HR) is NECESSARY. 

Skipping certain arena spars, interviews, etc aren't the problem. Having people shooed in to a house due to their past credentials will simply encourage house jumping, which is something that really doesn't RP very well. It's definitely agreed that the houses now are not as "heavy" as the past guilds or houses. But should we work to make them feel.. even lighter?

Austere

My greatest complaint of joining my new Targ house when I faction hopped was having to explain how to cure certain affs. "What cures stupidity?" I of course referenced every passive and herbal cure capable of curing it, hoping to demonstrate my knowledge of the subject in the first question. I dunno if my interviewer was sick in the head or just having fun, but they made me answer like ten.  

Tecton

From our point of view, we don't have any objections to people being fast-tracked through requirements if they're older/more experienced. I think there still needs to be some deeper instruction as to what the house ethos/purpose is.

Having an active house full of people is great, but if nobody is really in sync with the deeper aspects, problems can occur. For instance: When it's time to pick a new house leader and nobody has an understanding beyond the basics, the house may become aimless.

Kez

Not sure why there's so much complaint about checklists here. If you can't breeze through a house's prep sight unseen then either you actually don't deserve to be frivolously promoted or the list has stupid busywork on it that a newbie shouldn't have to do either. (Please note that doing things that full members of the org do on a regular basis to become a full member yourself is not stupid busywork; it's common sense. But DOWN WITH ESSAYS! *wields picket*)

If you are going to invest yourself in any organisation, then joining in the same way everybody else did is not beneath you. If you'd rather not consider yourself part of a team, I can see why you'd want to be an exception. It's like showing up to a job interview in your pjs and holding out your hand for the keys to your new office. If someone is going to fall for that, welcome to your meaningless new status until another sparkly catches your eye, but anyone with any respect for others on their team is going to show you the door.

Atalkez

The only tangible facet you could FastTrack on is combat from what I can tell. 

Someone being a good ritualistic in Mhaldor doesn't make them a good ritualistic in Targossas. Gotta learn the foundation of why you're doing stuff I believe.

Asking your combat leader to demonstrate, say raiding knowledge, by raiding instead of 5 spars wouldn't be out of line, either. The House grows from what you put in. Grab 2-3 novices and drag them through with you. You can explain what you're doing and all kinds of stuff.

Xinna

I'm not all that into new Houses, but I wasn't into most of the old Houses either (Occultists and Naga were the exceptions, maybe Blood Congregation too). I don't think the problem is solely the lack of history/lack of willingness to build something new. I think part of it is just discovering what purpose new Houses can serve at all. I know some cities have divided them by combat vs. RP, for example. I don't like that at all, personally, because I don't see combat and RP as entirely separate things, and a lot of people in Mhaldor feel the same. Old Houses had both in them, so you didn't have to commit yourself to one, do a bunch of requirements pertaining only to the one, and miss out on whatever happens in the other area in the other House.

Other cities have done it differently, like Mhaldor, but I think those cities have difficulty determining what the actual purpose of Houses is, if it isn't teaching a particular class and it isn't a particular type of play (like combat, RP, etc.). I'd be happy if Mhaldor was all just one House, honestly. All the trouble trying to keep the city united but somehow define it into two Houses that are both devoted to Evil and work together, but are different in some way, is time-consuming!

Tecton

Yep, all throughout the Renaissance we were pushing the house leaders to come up with more open requirements, rather than checklists, and prove things by doing rather than interviews etc.

Essays are never allowed to be mandatory, they should always have alternate options available in their place.

Valkyn

There are RP houses? Huh? I know with Hashan's, there's one combat/practical house and one more scholarly house, but that doesn't mean the combat house doesn't have RP.

Tvistor

They aren't supposed to be 'RP houses', but a non-zero amount of the playerbase interprets it like that anyway.

Kiet

I think we got a bit derailed earlier with the fast tracking, in that yeah okay I'll concede it's not that unreasonable to not fast track a guy that just switched from the opposite faction.

But if the person comes from the same city, and has to join this new house not out of choice but because their old house blew up? I see no reason not to fast track them, at least a bit.

Wynedere

On top of pointless houses, cities (some, maybe not all) are forcing citizens to also hold membership in a house. That makes little sense to me. It all boils down to adding lists of requirements, that have never been fun, to each citizen's "to-do list" that have to be trudged through before they can actually get to the fun stuff.

Kiet

The only cities that force house membership are the authoritarian ones afaik, and in that case what did you expect?

Valkyn

What city other than Mhaldor makes them compulsory?

Kiet

Targ, maybe? Other than that no one except for sometimes newbies.

Seifur

Yes it's mandatory to be a member of a house in Targossas.

Valkyn

Right, I think Eleusis might force it to age 25?

Klendathu

Ashtan does too

Kiet

Ashtan forces to 25 or in general?

Alcaro

Skye said:
Checklist reqs are for people who have no idea what to do for/about themselves. If someone is willing to get their hands dirty and their feet wet from the get-go, why would you hold them back?

 I disagree. Personally, I love the newbie checklists. So much, in fact, that when Averitti graduated from novicehood and started working on her house tasks, I went and found this awesome checklist website ...

 

 Yes, that's how much I love the newbie checklists. Although I suppose it may not be so much the newbie checklists themselves as it is the concept behind them: a written list of THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO GET THIS. The simplicity and the no-bullshit method appeals to me intensely and I find that when I have these kind of checklists, I can accomplish things quicker and easier.

Everyone is wired differently, however. One of the reasons I think I gravitate towards the checklists is that I see them as a means to an end. Emphasis on end. End > prize > YAY > HAPPY ME YAY I WON.

Accomplishments make my world go round. My virtual little text-world.

But if I went MIA for IRL purposes and came back to Averitti being like 493 years old and a totally different Achaea .. if I went from Troni to Slave or if Mhaldor was demolished entirely and I was forced to seek a new city altogether and start from scratch .. I honestly don't think that even a checklist could keep me from getting discouraged easily. It's tough, that kind of change. Makes me understand why some old players don't come back.

If there was a monetary prize, though .. say, credits or a heaping pile of gold ..

... wowI'msoshallow.

Atalkez

Kiet said:

Ashtan forces to 25 or in general?

Required regardless.

Kiet

Ok so that's Mhaldor/Ashtan/Shallam that force house, that's not really that bad. If you don't want to be a house a good half of the cities don't force you. The ones that force you are all heavily aligned anyway.

Cooper

As someone who has played Achaea for a very, very long time and gone through a long list of both guilds and houses across multiple characters, I can lean both ways.

On one hand, I have absolutely no patience for the houses that make experienced players do the stupid tasks such as 'find Stygian Crossroads. Prove that you have a health vial. Show that you can defend yourself. Write an essay on X, perform a ritual, or speak in detail on X in front of a group of citizens. Defile a shrine. Lead 2 group hunts.' - thank you to the person who helped me through some of the menial tasks on Cooper after the new houses.

On the other, while us experienced players know where to go and stuff like that, we might not necessarily get the intricacies of the new house, and that's what we need to be taught/shown we know.

Also on a side note, requiring someone to write an essay, perform a ritual, or speak in public (and similar things) are incredibly bad. Sure - have a branch of your house that someone can choose to take that requires those things, but do not make them required for all members. Not everyone wants to do those things, or can do those things.

Skye

Alcaro said:

Skye said:
Checklist reqs are for people who have no idea what to do for/about themselves.

Although I suppose it may not be so much the newbie checklists themselves as it is the concept behind them: a written list of THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO GET THIS. The simplicity and the no-bullshit method appeals to me intensely and I find that when I have these kind of checklists, I can accomplish things quicker and easier.

Everyone is wired differently, however. One of the reasons I think I gravitate towards the checklists is that I see them as a means to an end. Emphasis on end. End > prize > YAY > HAPPY ME YAY I WON.

This argument in no way counters the statement quoted from my post or in fact my post as a whole. If anything, it simply complements it.

If you had no idea what to do with yourself or what end-game you were going towards then yes, you'd probably need a checklist of requirements. They're the easy and impersonal way of doing things.

With the exception of people who play in dead hours in nearly dead houses, a person's growth or progress as a player should easily be conveyed by their interactions and participation in house-based activities/discussions.

If you as a novice aide/secretary/houseleader have no inkling of how/what people in your House (and timezone) are doing without having to refer off some checklist, then you're probably not doing your job. Heck you're not probably not even talking to the people in your House, your house channels are probably dead quiet or filled with inane chatter about cookies. You're not a bloody MNC where there's hundreds and thousands of people.

Rather than pull up some dreaded interview, you can even just have a regular chat. Like tea and crumpets without an overlooming threat of failure. Listen to what they've been up to, what questions they have and then suggest things they can try next because you think they're lacking in a particular area. And then the next chat you can go from there.

Ideally that's what mentors should be doing, but we've already argued before on a previous thread that the mentor system doesn't really work for a number of reasons.  An entire House of HR5s should be capable of this because it not only fosters closeness between members, but demonstrates their understanding of their roles as a (insert House name here).

Sarathai

Valkyn said:

Right, I think Eleusis might force it to age 25?

Up to age 25, you need to be in an Eleusian house. Past that, you can be in a non-Eleusian house or houseless. It's worth noting that house membership grants the ability to sense exterms.

Kyrra

When Ashtan's direction changed and we made a formal alliance with the Chaos Court, a lot more emphasis was placed on uniting Ashtan together. So all the Houses are supposed to work together, and there are House requirements up to HR5 where folks have to interact with or get assistance from the other Houses in Ashtan, and the laws were changed so all Ashtani need to be in an Ashtan house and vice versa, because non-Ashtan Houses don't fully support Ashtan's goals.

It was really difficult for a few people that were Merchants or in the CIJ to have to choose between House or City, but overall I think it was definitely a change for the better simply because there were so many different factions running in Ashtan. The Houses did their own thing, especially with the Shadowsnakes and Occultists having so much secrecy. There's no way that information or knowledge would have been freely shared but it's understandable. The new Houses in Ashtan feel more like.. workplaces or divisions that you join based off what interests you or what you want to focus on. The work of each house is to work toward Ashtan's goals as a whole but they all contribute differently. I really like that.