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Ship Changes!

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  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    heh. There are other ways it could be handled so ships aren't used in a way that's detrimental to the game. A long break after being involved in conflict before you can board. Not being able to board while infamous. Maybe no boarding while having a contract/bounty on your head so you have to deal with it, maybe? During events with important items, just make it so the person loses it upon boarding or take away the ability to board while it is in their possession. They are so many ways to fix this "problem" rather than just completely changing the privacy and security of a ship. Sorry, but I'm just not buying into the idea that prisming HAS to be allowed.

    As was said before, many of us use ships for other things than just hiding from consequences. A lot of us are not PKers at all. Besides storing extra riftables, I do a lot of inkmilling on my ship. I prefer to do this in a quiet, secure place well out of the way of others. If I design, I do it on a ship. If I am working on Order or pre-Order things, I do it on a ship. A lot of the "hiding" I've done from PKers on a ship has to do with when they break the rule of Annwyn where you're not supposed to seek retribution outside of Annwyn by still chasing the person outside of it and trying to kill them. In that case, they really have no right to be chasing and attacking me until I die because they are breaking a written rule. I have also met PKers who will continue to seek retribution outside of Annwyn LONG after the incident in Annwyn occurs.

    From HELP ANNWYN:
    Annwyn is considered to be a "Treacherous Plane." Simply being there puts 
    you at risk of being attacked by anyone, for any reason - or no reason at all. 
    Once you leave the lawlessness of Annwyn, however, you may not seek retribution 
    for what happened there.

    Not everyone is in a House or a city, and shouldn't be forced to join one just to have "meetings." You also don't always want to talk in a place where you can be bothered by others who can enter, or in the case of a guard stack someone could always be phased/blackwinded/astralformed/spiritwalking/etc. Guard stacks, House halls, and relying on subdivision or out of subdivision houses with extremely flawed security just doesn't really work or offer the same thing, and I'm with Salindera on the idea that buying a bed just doesn't make up for that.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TarausTaraus The Gypsy Wind
    Tecton said:
    Lots more changes on the way, including many that will make the journey on the seas more fund and rewarding! 
    I, too, appreciate the opportunity for more of this on the seas.

    (teehee, couldn't resist!)

  • KietKiet
    edited November 2015
    Really, in a game with an entire class built half around spying, at one point 4 houses dedicated to it, and where politics is a a big thing,  you're going to tell me the only use for spying is to be creepy?
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Kiet said:
    Really, in a game with an entire class built half around spying, at one point 4 houses dedicated to it, and where politics is a a big thing,  you're going to tell me the only use for spying is to be creepy?
    Did I say it was the ONLY use? No. I did not. I said it seems to be seldom productive, whereas you more often hear about logs of them spying on what people like to do in private to make fun of them, shame them, or use it against them. Perhaps keep in mind the Serpent Houses were not generally doing all that great for quite a while before the Renaissance even began. Nor does spying seem to be a very prevalent focus in most of the Houses now, only some, and only as one aspect. Before you question me, make sure you read what I say and realize I never once said spying is always meant to be creepy, but it often is. One of many reasons I quit all those toxic OOC clans was the logs and people going on about all the stuff they see when going around spying on their main or alt just to be voyeuristic.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • RazzloRazzlo
    So much unneeded vitriol!

    People are going to have different opinions than you, it is okay! Though I will admit that I am losing my stance of there being no place that is 100 percent safe towards, 'I will be entirely cool with it if they make ships less of a fortress, but I will feel bad for those who sunk tons of RL money into something to be that said safe space.' I sure as hell won't throw spite at those players because they were upset that they lost that. 

    I think the game is better when people cannot entirely cut themselves away, but I can see why they would be so upset about it. I also think the admins went back on it because there were some points brought up that they did not consider, like the time investment you have to put in to some ship trades, and how a lot of people have to move back and forth between the mainland and sailing because of house and city duties. (This makes people less likely to interact with novices when they are needed to, and novice retention should always be the number one priority in the game for admins.)


  • TrevizeTrevize
    Razzlo said:
    So much unneeded vitriol!

    People are going to have different opinions than you, it is okay!
    Ultimately, we all do have different views about Achaea. And as a game where everything affects something else (which is what we love about Achaea, admit it!), we will clash. This is never in dispute. From there, there are two choices:

    1) Offer constructive feedback - expressing their view and taking others into consideration.

    2) Devolve to personal attacks, or dismiss someone else by saying their opinion is irrelevant since it doesn't impact them (come on, this is Achaea - everyone is impacted by most changes in many ways)

    That said, I don't envy the admin position of making necessary changes and attempting to please a diverse playerbase. They do a hell of a job with something I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • SenaSena
    I disliked the prism change (or would have if it wasn't already reverted by the time I heard about it) even though I don't think docked ships should be impenetrable safe zones. There should be a way to get onto a ship without permission, but I dislike prism as the method for doing so. I agree with Saeva though that ships being impenetrable fortresses while docked doesn't do any harm to seafaring. If anything, it's actually good for seafaring, because it greatly increases the number of ships available.

    I'm also glad the shipreturn change was reverted even though I don't think shipreturn should be able to be used as it is (leaving a ship somewhere as a stationary travel beacon), because there are several vital uses for it still, so those issues need to be solved (with replacement abilities or changes that make them non-issues) before removing the ability to shipreturn to docked ships. I think making shipreturn more limited would be fine though. There wouldn't be any issues that I can think of if docked shipreturn had massive end/will costs, or consumed figurehead power with some type of emergency shipreturn for when there's no figurehead/power (consumes some resource and/or can only be used once per RL day for example), or couldn't be done very often, or all three.

    @Kayeil If the majority of PvP was pointless griefing that contributed nothing to the game, PvP would still be a perfectly valid form of gameplay and any potential impact to it should certainly still be considered when making changes to the game. It's the same for spying, even if 90% of the spying you see is just people trying to watch mudsex, it's still a meaningful part of the game. Additionally, when spying is done right you likely won't hear about it, so it's actually expected that the lowest form of spying would appear to be a large majority of it, whether it's actually the majority or not (it almost certainly is, but not the 90% it looks like to someone uninvolved with more interesting/meaningful spying).
  • SeftinSeftin
    I agree, there should be a method to get onto ships without permission.

    I think it should not be prism, as prism has a chance at being avoided simply by moving rooms.
  • GreysGreys
    I'm pretty the "interaction" they are looking for is to break onto a ship, steal stuff, LOL, and disembark immediately.
  • SeftinSeftin
    It seems like people just want ships to be safe so they can AFK there. I have yet to see anything anyone has stated about them being safe that is anything but for AFK, regardless of how they try to dress it up.
  • GamdenGamden
    @Seftin Of course!
    Where do u think I enter my forums from?

  • ElowinElowin
    I like the figurehead idea for shipreturn. And adding the ability to follow people onto ships w/o permission would give those PK/'spies'/thieves what they want w/o shitting all over the rest of us.
  • SenaSena
    Board being followable is what I would suggest too (though I'd prefer there to additionally be some much more difficult possibility once someone is already on a ship; I don't have any  specific ideas for that though). It leaves a single point of failure for people to defend against, after which they're safe and don't have to be constantly vigilant, and a troll with a prism tattoo can't leave you stuck defending against prisms until they get bored and leave. And it still leaves ships far safer than houses.
  • TrillianaTrilliana
    Greys said:
    I'm pretty the "interaction" they are looking for is to break onto a ship, steal stuff, LOL, and disembark immediately.
    Insert killing all of the crew, and that's what I would worry about.

    I can see why people don't want ships as impenetrable fortresses, but for someone that basically avoids fighting, who used to have to deal with children on a very regular basis, and for now, someone that really isn't emotionally stable, having to worry about not wanting to talk to others or suddenly having to leave in the middle of a conversation is a big reason I stay on a ship. I'd rather be able to work on shopkeeping numbers, designing, giving people updates on my personal life for quick bursts, or just even popping in to check vials/ship food/strongbox not be a total anxiety-fest because of worrying about someone prisming to me for LOLs or just to bother me - since I'm really popular apparently.
    meh


  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    The shipreturn change was pretty rough for a bunch of legitimate reasons. I'm glad that's reversed. It might have solved the use shipreturn/Gare to bypass sailing, which is counterproductive to having a sailing system, but it also made sailing itself highly inconvenient, which is also pretty counterproductive. I don't think anyone really disagrees on this. Even most of the people that use shipreturn/Gare aren't really defending it, we all just agree that the initial change there was a mistake.

    It's just the prism change that's got folks riled up. There is some valid concern there, just because if someone does get aboard your ship, they could wipe out your crew and cost you huge amounts of time and money for a single moment of AFK/unawareness. That's a bit disproportionate to the ease of breaking in, kinda like how old theft was preventable, but disproportionate in the damage that could be done if it wasn't. And like I've said before, if ships are completely vulnerable to prism, and someone wants on, then your only options is to leave the ship, because they can just keep trying until you give up. That's not fun. But at the same time, we've seen ships abused in high-profile events and extreme cases, and every other instance of real saferooms in Achaea have been removed. (We used to have them in some Househalls and temples, but no longer). With deference to @Sarapis, we HAVE seen the Admin try to reign in this issue in the past, it's just that we never found a truly workable solution. We had to resort to more ham-handed fixes, like changing the entire Reckoning event, because we didn't know how to overcome the problem ships posed.

    The major instances of abuse involving ships aren't ones that you could "follow" someone to stop, and often aren't ones where someone gets initially attacked then flees to a ship. Daeir and I keep referencing the Reckoning, which I feel like folks have forgotten? The Scepter was necessary to win, and the Scepter was kept by both sides on ships, where no one could get to it, under any circumstances. No amount of following, 10-minute cooldowns, or other half-measures would have stopped that. If I wanted to empty the Shield's bankaccounts, if I made it to a ship before someone found me, I'd be safe forever barring Garden intervention. If I want to sit on a ship and shout insults to all of Mhaldor and Ashtan for the next 3 hours, I can do that without repercussion. And then the smaller offenses, if you want to kill someone and hide from their friends, if you want to hide from a Mark who has a contract on you while he's online and emerge later, these things aren't prevented by any of those proposed restrictions. We need SOME way to get at people who are deliberately hiding on ships in these manners.

    I think ships should be vulnerable to prism, because that's kinda what prism is for--reaching people who don't want to be reached. Prism has counters, though, and I agree that prism-proof upgrades should be able to be installed in the ship's cabin. That does make it possible for your ship to be "safe" again, (if you pay for it, right now you get it for free) but that's how regular houses work, and regular houses have never been a problem. (Ships would still be safer than houses, with swashbucklers and being unable to soul/Gem infiltrate through the front door) That's because Radiance has always been there to chase someone out of a house in those high-profile cases. Honestly, in my opinion, docked ships should be susceptible to Radiance for the same reasons. You can have your prism-proof cabin to AFK or hang out it, I'm not trying to stop that. But when you barricade yourself into a ship with some world-event item, or something you stole from another faction that they want back, then there needs to be a way to get to you.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • AtalkezAtalkez
    That's only part of the problem.

    Everyone forgets about Dajio.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    I don't know why people feel entitled to tell others they HAVE to constantly be open to interaction or they might as well quit forever. Even Sarapis has said in the past this is a game with multiple playing styles, including for those who mostly like to go and do things alone. There are plenty of enjoyable things one can do without having to interact with others or require their help. There is NO where in the game that says it isn't okay to be a less social or anti-social character, there are plenty of them around, and they are just entitled to play the game that way as any PK griefer, social butterfly, sailor/pirate, etc.

    On another note, I don't recall anyone saying they should never be interacted with.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • GamdenGamden
    Atalkez said:
    I'm confused why anyone thinks they are entitled to never be interacted with in a multiplayer-RPG.

    If that's the case, don't log in. Achaea wasn't built to be a chat room for LoL, Dota, or whatever. It wasn't built so you can log in and just stand there.

    I mean this with all due respect, but it sounds as if some people need to reevaluate why you play this game.
    @Atalkez Not sure why your forcing your playing style onto others
    Ignore tells are there for a reason

    I played this game as a single player game for well over a year, I loved it.This was after playing in Shallam and dying to Tanris and co...ALOT
    I don't feel different, I have not been shrubbed for it.I embrace the different playing styles. Being a business man outside of Acheae , days can get rough.
    Achaea gives me the freedom to chill  here and pretty much do what i want

    This is a multi-cultured game with a diverse group of people, maybe you should weigh how much your two cents are worth.



  • ElowinElowin
    Maybe some sort of system for infiltrating a ship? Something more difficult than 'touch prism, rinse, repeat.' Something equal or comparable in difficulty to the potential loss that the owner/captain faces if the attacker succeeds. I don't have any specific ideas at the moment, though.

    Another thing we COULD do is start treating the outside areas of a ship as... outside areas. Meaning they'd be part of w/e area they're docked in and therefore vulnerable to prism/displacement/track/whatever. Weather, too, I want to be cold more often.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Crew shouldn't be so vulnerable then. There are going to be some major jerks who are going to treat ships like hunting grounds and slaughter them all while robbing you blind of anything they can get their sticky fingers on.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • GreysGreys
    You keep citing the one use in reckoning by someone who self admits she isn't a mariner. There are plenty of places I could shout insults that you could not get to me if I really felt the inclination and I hardly have seen much instances of that.  There are times I want to relax, focus on one person or some house work without having to constantly be bugged. I mean would you really rather I take all the vital stuff to skype instead? Again, the costs are nontrivial, we are playing 1-2 credits a year worth of gold just to maintain a cutter. Again, what meaningful roleplaying are you looking to get via boarding a ship? Reasonably certain 95% of the reasons are theft which I have never found to be a meaningful interaction.
  • AtalkezAtalkez
    Gamden said:
    Atalkez said:
    I'm confused why anyone thinks they are entitled to never be interacted with in a multiplayer-RPG.

    If that's the case, don't log in. Achaea wasn't built to be a chat room for LoL, Dota, or whatever. It wasn't built so you can log in and just stand there.

    I mean this with all due respect, but it sounds as if some people need to reevaluate why you play this game.
    @Atalkez Not sure why your forcing your playing style onto others
    Ignore tells are there for a reason
    Hey man, you're absolutely right. Ignore tells is there for harassment/blatant dislike of an individual and things of that nature.

    That's not what ships are for, though. Ships are for sailing to the islands around the world, opening up the content that was put into the game. The citadels, monsters, fishing, diving, etc etc.

    I'm not forcing my style on anyone else, I just think that 100% impenetrable rooms are a bad mechanic. At least a guard stack or a house, there are some ways to counter. Ships are 100% uncountable, as it's entirely too easy to board a ship and never be threatened in any way again, regardless of how wrong your character was/is to anyone. 

    While some people may not abuse this mechanic, the ability for it to be abused, is a bad thing. Anyone arguing against that, in my opinion, isn't being genuine to the better long term longevity of the game.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Oh I guess being able to raise commscreen is totally not intended to be used in a way similar to tells off.

    Stop calling it abuse when Sarapis said it wasn't abuse, and said if it was they would've done away with it all a long time ago.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TrevizeTrevize
    edited November 2015

    Round and round and round we go.

    There exist multiple ways to be very safe and still interact on some level. Every game has them, even (as I noted earlier) Eve Online (a very pvp-centric heavy-risk game) NPC stations. I seriously doubt there will ever not be a way to be safe in-game.

    I don't like ships being one of them, for a few reasons, but it apparently has Admin support/approval, so it's fine. I'll admit I actually never used it myself, before I sold my ship, because I always saw it as some form of abuse - but per the earlier post by Matt, it's not. Not much else to be said there.

    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
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    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
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