Multiclass (It's here!)

Dairon

Ethoas said:

Antonius said:

Dairon said:

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Most people don't know what the fuck they're talking about. This is one of those times. Such a massive change would have been announced; dstab is very much still affected by dexterity.

in re dstab speed

To elaborate, dex only matters depending on your dirk lvl.

Something like:

18 dex + lvl1 dirk = dstab cap
17 + lvl2 = cap
16 + lvl3 = cap

Aside from those numbers off the top of my head, dex also affects dodge chance, garrote speed, backstab windup (i think), and phase windup/recovery

And shown above are examples of an informative, appropriate response and one that just isn't. 

Thanks for the information, good to know the specifics. 

On an additional note, I have never understood why Serpents are so special that they deserve an entire stat (dex) to themselves. Ok, I exaggerate, but why not have a few that are able to utilize Dex as a main stat? Most classes seem to be either int/strength, with a few that either go con or can do anything. Serpent seems to be the only one that requires heavy investment in dexterity (either through traits, specializations, or artefacts). 

EDIT: Deleted a question preemptively answered by Suladan

Antonius

Serpents reliance on dexterity is a relatively recent (in the grand scheme of the game) change. Before that, no classes used it as their primary stat. It's less that Serpent is special, and more that they're the only class that's had a relatively significant rework and made sense to be reliant on dexterity. More classes might get reworked in the future, and that may introduce a reliance on dexterity.

Cooper

The second class is 381 credits more than your first class. A very, very reasonable price for being able to switch between classes every day. Subsequent classes are a little iffy, but the second one is perfectly reasonable.

Skye

Going Serp becomes even less appealing when I think about having to suffer the dex penalty of taking the racial spec for con. I'm wondering if I should like, reincarnate to the intelligence spec instead. But then I'll need to get a belt or something to maintain my current health level.

Silvarien

Daeir said:

I still maintain that the system is heinously overpriced.

I'd love to learn more than one class. Unfortunately, I can't pay the $360 needed for the credits. If I want to bash that gold instead, presuming I earn say.. 30k gold an hour, I'll need to bash for over 258 hours worth of gold for a total of 7.75mil gold.

This is presuming full tri-trans which for MOST classes (not all) is required for combat relevancy.

Long term goal for sure, with the system in the current state it is in. I don't even think it took 258 hours of bashing total to hit Dragon.

Good on the people that can afford either the time or the money cost. I wish I could.

@Daeir : Regarding the cost, keep in mind that lesson sales are different price-wise than credit sales. If memory serves, 10,000 credits on the last lesson sale were about 220 or 240 dollars. If you have Elite, you get bumped up to 11k lessons for that much. Two classes cost 17500 to trans. Yeah, it's still a big amount of money, but not $360. And if later you want another class -- there'll be another lesson sale eventually. Keep in mind, also, that Elite provides a small number of lessons and up to 150 creds per month for 25 bucks, and you also have that 300 cr starter package. So, 75 bucks for 450 creds converting to 2700 lessons, which is a good chunk of the 7500 you need for the first multiclass slot. If you're dealing with a lesson sale, you'd need 4,800 lessons, and while I don't remember lesson sale brackets off the top of my head, you quite certainly won't need 290 dollars to get that.

I think patience plays a huge part in this feature. I don't think most people can get all they want right away, but eventually, people will be getting and keeping much more than was possible in the old system. Cause nothing you put in goes out of your possession.

Kayeil

Just went blademaster to make swords only, not putting any lessons into this class whatsoever. First sword I get? Perfect Crow. So boring. Could be worse, though.

Suladan

@Tecton , @Sarapis

We're about ready to tick over into the next monthly promo - what about doing 500 bonus lessons for each 100 credits. Comes out to about the same as 20% (or 30% with Iron Elite) plus a crown. Iron Elite would get the same lesson bonus, but still the 10% cr bonus. 

Tahquil

Tahquil said:

Just went blademaster to make swords only, not putting any lessons into this class whatsoever. First sword I get? Perfect Crow. It was rather pretty and I gave it to a friend because it suited their RP.

Kayeil

Tahquil said:

Tahquil said:

Just went blademaster to make swords only, not putting any lessons into this class whatsoever. First sword I get? Perfect Crow. It was rather pretty and I gave it to a friend because it suited their RP.

Noooo. Unless they wanna go blademaster and make me a perfect sword!

Sobriquet

Antonius said:

Serpents reliance on dexterity is a relatively recent (in the grand scheme of the game) change. Before that, no classes used it as their primary stat. It's less that Serpent is special, and more that they're the only class that's had a relatively significant rework and made sense to be reliant on dexterity. More classes might get reworked in the future, and that may introduce a reliance on dexterity.

You could argue Jesters did to a point given acrobatics and the advantage it gave. I specced for Con with Satyr Gallant as i was mainly hunting in lesser and enjoyed being tanky but now feel a second class will have a disadvantage combat wise almost immediately.

Tahquil

Kayeil said:

Tahquil said:

Tahquil said:

Just went blademaster to make swords only, not putting any lessons into this class whatsoever. First sword I get? Perfect Crow. It was rather pretty and I gave it to a friend because it suited their RP.

Noooo. Unless they wanna go blademaster and make me a perfect sword!

No, I gave my sword to him. You can keep making your swords for your hearts content.

Naverre

Blademasters are a great fit for dex. Flavour-wise, they aren't about hitting hard, just fast and accurately enough to inflict the right kind of wounds, and with their lighter armour and fast movement, dex fits them much better than strength. I can see the same for jesters and bards (though honestly, bards feel more int-based).

BM and Jester and maybe Bard are the only classes that really could use dex. Alchemist, Apostate, Magi, Occie, Priest, Shaman, and Sylvan are all int; Infernal, Monk, Paladin, Runewarden, Sentinel and to a large degree Druid are all strength. Where else would dex go?

Shirszae

Nowhere. And thats perfectly fine :pleased: 

Dairon

No. Not perfectly fine.

Kotaru

I would like if Jester stuff used Dex. You're basically an acrobat! BM would be a good fit too, I agree.

Naverre

Shirszae said:

Nowhere. And thats perfectly fine :pleased: 

It's not perfectly fine when you need to specialise your race for dex because you can't afford fancy +3 dex boots. If you do so for strength, you have a pool of classes to draw on. Same for int. Hell, you can even specialise towards constitution, and your int and strength won't be affected, instead you lose even more precious dex, so dex specialisation is the only option. We Serpents get screwed out of multiclass.

Razzlo

Yeah, I have thought for a while that more classes should be Dex based to fit alongside Serpents. Blademaster, Bard, and Jester are the ones I definitely see getting added into that.

However, I think it would also be cool if dual sword knight specializations used dex and maybe have blademaster, bard, and monk damage change what stat was used based on stance.

Lot of balancing into that though I guess.

Sena

You don't have to actually rework a class so dex is their primary stat; just take a class that isn't especially reliant on str/int, and give them a defensive ability that scales with dex, so it can be a viable replacement for con. That would be much easier to balance than using dex as an offensive stat, especially if you make it primarily for bashing (since dodging is already useful in PvP). That also wouldn't have much impact on people who are already specced str/int/con for those classes.

For example, make Thyr stance for blademasters give damage reduction that scales with dex (either only against denizens or just more effective against denizens, and probably requiring at least 14 dex), making it a little more effective than con (since it's restricted to a single stance that isn't the best for offence or defence). Make acrobatics for jesters and bards give a chance of dodging denizen attacks with high dex. Make dex give faster balance against denizens in cat stance for monks (making high-dex cat stance similar in DPS to high-str scorpion stance, or a bit better since it's not as useful in PvP).

Trevize

Sena said:

You don't have to actually rework a class so dex is their primary stat; just take a class that isn't especially reliant on str/int, and give them a defensive ability that scales with dex, so it can be a viable replacement for con. That would be much easier to balance than using dex as an offensive stat, especially if you make it primarily for bashing (since dodging is already useful in PvP). That also wouldn't have much impact on people who are already specced str/int/con for those classes.

For example, make Thyr stance for blademasters give damage reduction that scales with dex (either only against denizens or just more effective against denizens, and probably requiring at least 14 dex), making it a little more effective than con (since it's restricted to a single stance that isn't the best for offence or defence). Make acrobatics for jesters and bards give a chance of dodging denizen attacks with high dex. Make dex give faster balance against denizens in cat stance for monks (making high-dex cat stance similar in DPS to high-str scorpion stance, or a bit better since it's not as useful in PvP).

This bring up an amazing point. What if most classes, like monk, ended up viable with two stats used for different things? That would suit multiclass beautifully.

Dunn

Bit of an involved overhaul there. Just tie stat packs to each slot. Human man at arms for my knight slot and human savant for mage. 

Austere

Dunn said:

Bit of an involved overhaul there. Just tie stat packs to each slot. Human man at arms for my knight slot and human savant for mage. 

I hate the fact that this would devalue my gem. I bought a gem and a grimoire in anticipation of multiclass,  because I knew I would want some more dynamic options.  With that in mind, I thoroughly support this shift. Buying the fast change artie right now would be worthless. 24 hour cool down on race re-spec leaves me stuck as monk or serpent.  Can't realistically achieve proficiency in one without harming the other. At best, I could buy level 2 gem and change every two hours.  I don't particularly like the idea of being able to swap class every ten minutes but sucking for 2 hours, so I probably won't even consider that. 

Trevize

Dunn said:

Bit of an involved overhaul there. Just tie stat packs to each slot. Human man at arms for my knight slot and human savant for mage. 

That was discussed. Just throwing out long-term things I'd like to see as well.

Aerek

Really, Serpents' reliance on Dex is the only reason it's not in everyone's repertoire. It's always been the most popular class in Achaea for its mix of utility and combat potency, and just from looking around, it still appears to be the most popular second class, so the Dex obstacle still isn't stopping people.

I feel like we're trying to re-invent the world so multiclass is more convenient/less expensive, but the world shouldn't revolve around multiclass, and the paywall and inconvenience of multiclass is pretty clearly intentional. Some classes will mesh better than others, and Serpent's unique Dex requisite is almost the only counterbalance for how desirable its unique capabilities are. It's not supposed to be a god-given right to have the two classes you want and function at peak efficiency at both of them, regardless of their differences. You can do that, but there are already artefacts in place to allow it. They were kind to give us separate traits, honestly.

Austere

Aerek said:

Really, Serpents' reliance on Dex is the only reason it's not in everyone's repertoire. It's always been the most popular class in Achaea for its mix of utility and combat potency, and just from looking around, it still appears to be the most popular second class, so the Dex obstacle still isn't stopping people.

I feel like we're trying to re-invent the world so multiclass is more convenient/less expensive, but the world shouldn't revolve around multiclass, and the paywall and inconvenience of multiclass is pretty clearly intentional. Some classes will mesh better than others, and Serpent's unique Dex requisite is almost the only counterbalance for how desirable its unique capabilities are. It's not supposed to be a god-given right to have the two classes you want and function at peak efficiency at both of them, regardless of their differences. You can do that, but there are already artefacts in place to allow it. They were kind to give us separate traits, honestly.

I agree. Serpent should have a high cost to multiclass effectively with other classes. My only issue is that regardless of what you buy, the optimal class change time for serpent will always be two hours or more (best level gem). There is nothing a serpent can multiclass without feeling the pain for two hours. Every other class has an option to change to and it be a non issue. 

Antonius

You only need, what, 15 dexterity with a level 3 dirk to cap doublestab speed? Most races have a base dexterity of at least 12, so you have the option of buying level 3 dexterity boots and a level 3 dirk, then using your racial specialisation for something that benefits more classes.

That might not be a cheap option, but it is an option, and Serpent is about the only class where you can do that, too. Everything else you're sacrificing a lot of stats that are still going to provide you with a benefit. Even if you have a level 3 sash, if you're a strength-specced Occultist you're losing a lot of valuable intelligence.

Dunn

Austere said:

Dunn said:

Bit of an involved overhaul there. Just tie stat packs to each slot. Human man at arms for my knight slot and human savant for mage. 

I hate the fact that this would devalue my gem. I bought a gem and a grimoire in anticipation of multiclass,  because I knew I would want some more dynamic options.  With that in mind, I thoroughly support this shift. Buying the fast change artie right now would be worthless. 24 hour cool down on race re-spec leaves me stuck as monk or serpent.  Can't realistically achieve proficiency in one without harming the other. At best, I could buy level 2 gem and change every two hours.  I don't particularly like the idea of being able to swap class every ten minutes but sucking for 2 hours, so I probably won't even consider that. 

A 2250 credit price tag just to have two classes with appropriate stats? Dunno bro.

Aerek

Honestly that doesn't bother me. I never imagined the cooldown for class swapping would be less than an hour, at minimum. The whole 10-minute, 1-minute, or completely free cooldowns kinda disappoints me. There's the 10-minute no-aggression restriction, but that only prevents the worse abuses of instant-class changing (Which could have been avoided with a channel time, like Dforming), there's not really any drawback or double edge to changing class like a set of clothes, and I kinda wanted that act to have some gravity.

Antonius

Pretty happy with my one minute cooldown, to be honest; multiclass would be a lot less attractive to me personally if I couldn't switch regularly. I've also not yet picked classes where being locked into any one racial specialisation for two hours is an issue for me, so I have no opinion either way on racial specs being tied to specific classes. I don't think it would devalue my level two Gem in any way, though, since I'd still have it for the self resurrection and for switching racial spec within a single class.

If there's one issue I have with multiclass, it's runes. Having to resketch absolutely everything seems like it's going to be a nightmare, and the costs for inks will add up insanely fast if I'm switching on any kind of a regular basis. Preferably body runes would just stay, because why not? That's how it works for Runewardens who dragonform, and that was hardly a big deal. Weapon runes and such would just not function unless you actually have the class. Ground runes could still vanish.

Hasar

I was pretty surprised they gave the free trait swap per class. Pretty lucky to have got that.

Tecton

We'll be adding in per-slot racial specialisations soon!