Multiclass (It's here!)

Lyr

How bad would a 13-DEX serpent be? I was considering it, but the racial specialisation thing has pretty much stopped my interest cold.

Dunn

I think even with a level 2 dirk you need something like 16 dex to get to optimal DSTAB speed. It'd be pretty bad for 1v1, probably. Snipe is always good, though.

@Sena can and will probably correct me.

Naverre

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

Trevize

Whatever happened to moving other classes to dex? Jester and Blademaster would be perfect for this.

Aesi

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

DEAR GOD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!

Kenway

Trevize said:

Whatever happened to moving other classes to dex? Jester(NO I -like- being able to hit the fuckers thankyouverymuch) and Blademaster would be perfect for this.

Silvarien

I am working on Bard, and when I have a chance, I'll snatch up Magi by reaching lvl 100. Can't wait!

Shirszae

Trevize said:

Whatever happened to moving other classes to dex? Jester and Blademaster would be perfect for this.

NO

Telendrieth

I've been reluctant to say it, but there are some folks in here with slightly... different views of just what they are comfortable dropping on the game. When you tell me the price of the game is fine, but you've also purchased 22 stone flowerpots, 17 (or so) earrings of sinope, and almost every single artifact in the game (some more than once).. I'm going to consider us in slightly different spending categories.

Krypton

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

And the average new Serpent thinks about Dex nonstop for seven days.

Since I didn't go Serpent for PvP, or maybe even hunting, I've been wondering how much I may end up disliking the experience of a 10-11 Dex Serpent.

So far, going from no-Phase, to finally-have-Phase-even-if-it-takes-5-seconds, I don't have too much to complain about...

Telendrieth

Speaking of serpent and dex. Someone lied to me about dex adding damage to snipe. Do you know how depressing it was to find out otherwise?

Trevize

Telendrieth said:

I've been reluctant to say it, but there are some folks in here with slightly... different views of just what they are comfortable dropping on the game. When you tell me the price of the game is fine, but you've also purchased 22 stone flowerpots, 17 (or so) earrings of sinope, and almost every single artifact in the game (some more than once).. I'm going to consider us in slightly different spending categories.

I've been on both sides of the spectrum. I changed class enough without spending any real money that I can honestly say it's perfectly viable - if not as immediate, to get two classes to tri-trans in-game in a moderate amount of time at around level 80.

Dairon

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Telendrieth

Trevize said:

Telendrieth said:

I've been reluctant to say it, but there are some folks in here with slightly... different views of just what they are comfortable dropping on the game. When you tell me the price of the game is fine, but you've also purchased 22 stone flowerpots, 17 (or so) earrings of sinope, and almost every single artifact in the game (some more than once).. I'm going to consider us in slightly different spending categories.

I've been on both sides of the spectrum. I changed class enough without spending any real money that I can honestly say it's perfectly viable - if not as immediate, to get two classes to tri-trans in-game in a moderate amount of time at around level 80.

I'm about 50/50 when it comes to credits I've gotten with gold and those I've acquired with cash. I think the content is ultimately great. I'm just in the corner of it being a bit too expensive for what it ultimately gives. Achaea is a game that I stay playing because of the people, not because I feel my dollar goes particularly far.

Naverre

Dairon said:

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Hmm... I haven't seen any changes in Announce or anything about this, so if it happened, it was done silently. I'd appreciate someone testing who has dex boots with a forged dirk, to see if dex changes it at all.

Wynedere

Ooo, new stuff.

Eld

Kenway said:

Trevize said:

Whatever happened to moving other classes to dex? Jester(NO I -like- being able to hit the fuckers thankyouverymuch) and Blademaster would be perfect for this.

Just dial back their base level of dodginess so  that their current level is what they can achieve with recently high dex, or something along those lines. Or just delete dodging as a mechanic. In any case, it's not like that sort of change would happen without significant rebalancing to account for issues like that.

Silvarien

@Tecton @Sarapis : I hope some future content integrates lvl 2 Grimoire to be useful for Multiclass. I upgraded to lvl 2 in anticipation, but in the system, it seems lvl 1 Grimoire is very useful but lvl 2 is not. Since each class gets its own set of traits, I don't see how a person would need lvl 2 Grimoire rather than conforming to the 1 rl day limitation of lvl 1 Grimoire. Unless, the Grimoire just resets one class's traits, rather than all of your classes', in which case I can see how lvl 2 is useful.

Lvl 2 gem, though, is very useful in the current model. No problems for that out of me!

Thank you!

Shirszae

I sort of wish it really was like Tradeskills and lessons started scaling up after the second class, instead of after the first. Not that I don't love the system to bits anyway. Its awesome.

Trevize

Shirszae said:

I sort of wish it really was like Tradeskills and lessons started scaling up after the second class, instead of after the first. Not that I don't love the system to bits anyway. Its awesome.

I think the reason for that is simply to establish a baseline.

'normal' = 1 class, 2 tradeskills

More is allowed, but it grows more expensive the further you go.

Dairon

Naverre said:

Dairon said:

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Hmm... I haven't seen any changes in Announce or anything about this, so if it happened, it was done silently. I'd appreciate someone testing who has dex boots with a forged dirk, to see if dex changes it at all.

I would have tested this myself but due to average ping being around 0.3 - 0.6, the results would be pretty useless. I do have a pair of lvl 1 dex boots to lend, if someone is looking to test. 

Antonius

Dairon said:

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Most people don't know what the fuck they're talking about. This is one of those times. Such a massive change would have been announced; dstab is very much still affected by dexterity.

Antonius

@Silvarien Grimoire only resets the traits for your current class, so if you want to switch all of them more than once per day you'd need the level two. I can't see why anybody would need to do that though.

@Shirszae The scaling starts sooner, but is slightly less severe than tradeskills (modifier on second class is 144%, third tradeskill is 150%), and there's a cap on the scaling based on the Announce post; your fourth class and onwards will all cost the same amount. That doesn't really help people who are only going to pick up one, maybe two, extra classes, I guess, but it's worth considering.

Ethoas

Antonius said:

Dairon said:

Naverre said:

The average Serpent thinks about dex once every seven seconds.

Big problem for effective Serpent multiclassing is how important dex is. Either you're a crappy Serpent, or you're a crappy any-other-class, simply because you need those stats in dex and can't really use them anywhere else (maybe constitution for hunting, but even with low health you can hunt pretty effectively with high enough dex).

At 13 dex, you want at least a level 2 dirk for decent doublestabs, probably a level 3. One level of dirk is about 2 points of dex if I remember correctly. With my 16 dex and level 1 dirk, I just barely get fast enough doublestabs. A level 2 might not even do it for you.

Your garrote speed won't be spectacular, and phase and backstab channel times are going to suffer a lot. The phase channel time will actually be really painful - don't count on phasing out of trouble all the time. Pickpocket will suffer overall, both in the speed and in success against denizens (not sure if dex affects adventurer steal success).

I've heard a few people say dex does not affect dstab speed anymore. Having low dex will affect all the points Naverre gave, but dstab speed should only be affected by dirk level. I havent dont any personal testing, so dont quote me. Just putting what i've heard out there

Most people don't know what the fuck they're talking about. This is one of those times. Such a massive change would have been announced; dstab is very much still affected by dexterity.

in re dstab speed

To elaborate, dex only matters depending on your dirk lvl.

Something like:

18 dex + lvl1 dirk = dstab cap
17 + lvl2 = cap
16 + lvl3 = cap

Aside from those numbers off the top of my head, dex also affects dodge chance, garrote speed, backstab windup (i think), and phase windup/recovery

Lyr

So to hit cap, you'd need the DEX+3 boots AND a Lv3 dirk? Ouchies.  

Draekar

I am a big fan of racial specs being added to each class slot like trait lists are. I don't want to read back over the last 8 pages to see if this was discussed and or decided already. I'd really like it to be a thing though.

Cooper

Or pick a race/trait combo that doesn't leave you at 13 base dex, which is what you do.

Eld

Lyr said:

So to hit cap, you'd need the DEX+3 boots AND a Lv3 dirk? Ouchies.  

As long as you're not dwarf or xoran, you have at least 12 base (13 for mhun, raja, and atavian). Dex spec gets you to 14 or 15, and the dex trait gets you 15 or 16. If you really want to play a low dex race or spec something other than your primary stat, you can buy boots to make up for it; pretty much the same as any other class in that regard.

Lyr

Cooper said:

Or pick a race/trait combo that doesn't leave you at 13 base dex, which is what you do.

Thereby screwing you out of your primary class, which you chose it for in the first place.

Suladan

Dunn said:

I think even with a level 2 dirk you need something like 16 dex to get to optimal DSTAB speed. It'd be pretty bad for 1v1, probably. Snipe is always good, though.

@Sena can and will probably correct me.

From Sena (tm) library:

Base dstab balance is 2.8s, every point of dex above 13 is -0.1s balance, every level of artefact dirk is -0.2s. Minimum balance is 2s with a L3 dirk, 2.1s otherwise. All of that is before nimble.

So then:
L1 dirk: 18 dex
L2 dirk: 16 dex
L3 dirk: 15 dex (and a faster cap)