Multiclass (It's here!)

Kenway

IM A MOTHERFUCKING BARD-RUNIE CYRENIAN MURDER MONSTER!! (Now @Tecton and @Sarapis can you guys just bring back the bug that let you songbless runebladed rapiers and get around wielding them with put in scabbard and draw sword? *flutter*)

Antonius

Sobriquet said:

But for those of us who have never change class (Speaking purely on Sobriquet here) there is now a total lack of character / class identity. Sure, a habitual class changer used to chop and change a lot and it got expensive but at least there was an identity for that character for a period of time. We aren't all like Seftin, or Ainly or whoever changes class at the drop of a hat. 

With guilds we had a unique and distinct identity to our character and what they wanted to be and while Guilds were changed (and rightly so) this seems to have taken us full circle to making a character in spite of their class, not because of it. Just feels... wrong

I'm not saying it's bad, but certainly wouldn't put it in the "awesome" bracket.

There's only a "total lack of character / class identity" if you pick up a second class, and even then only if you allow it to completely change the way your character acts - especially if they acted completely differently based on what class they currently were. Ultimately, your character might be influenced by the class they chose, but they should still be them even if they change away from that class.

My character was heavily influenced by being a Paladin - though much more by the organisations being a Paladin meant he was a part of than the class itself - but all of those things don't just disappear because I picked up Blademaster too.

Kez

As someone who has bought several repeat artefacts for multiple characters, I certainly see awesome. I'm just sad it didn't come much sooner, since any multiclassing that would interest me at the moment is already covered by established alts. It'd be cheaper than what I've spent on diadems alone, probably, and then there's SoAs and gems. Thinking of another gem of transmutation, too.

At least next time another class catches my eye, it shouldn't be as rough as a new alt.

Trevize

Sobriquet said:

But for those of us who have never change class (Speaking purely on Sobriquet here) there is now a total lack of character / class identity. Sure, a habitual class changer used to chop and change a lot and it got expensive but at least there was an identity for that character for a period of time. We aren't all like Seftin, or Ainly or whoever changes class at the drop of a hat. 

With guilds we had a unique and distinct identity to our character and what they wanted to be and while Guilds were changed (and rightly so) this seems to have taken us full circle to making a character in spite of their class, not because of it. Just feels... wrong

I'm not saying it's bad, but certainly wouldn't put it in the "awesome" bracket.

I've always struggled with the class identity thing. Seems like taking stereotypes to an extreme. A few knights have pulled it off, and a few serpents (very few).

Antonius

Kenway said:

IM A MOTHERFUCKING BARD-RUNIE CYRENIAN MURDER MONSTER!! (Now @Tecton and @Sarapis can you guys just bring back the bug that let you songbless runebladed rapiers and get around wielding them with put in scabbard and draw sword? *flutter*)

See? This man knows how to fully appreciate multiclass.

Bard will be my fourth class, just need to bash up to level 110 (380%), then buy however many credits I still need after getting there.

Tharvis

it's also not like multiclassing is mandatory, if you feel it doesn't fit your playstyle.

Sobriquet

Antonius said:

Sobriquet said:

But for those of us who have never change class (Speaking purely on Sobriquet here) there is now a total lack of character / class identity. Sure, a habitual class changer used to chop and change a lot and it got expensive but at least there was an identity for that character for a period of time. We aren't all like Seftin, or Ainly or whoever changes class at the drop of a hat. 

With guilds we had a unique and distinct identity to our character and what they wanted to be and while Guilds were changed (and rightly so) this seems to have taken us full circle to making a character in spite of their class, not because of it. Just feels... wrong

I'm not saying it's bad, but certainly wouldn't put it in the "awesome" bracket.

There's only a "total lack of character / class identity" if you pick up a second class, and even then only if you allow it to completely change the way your character acts - especially if they acted completely differently based on what class they currently were. Ultimately, your character might be influenced by the class they chose, but they should still be them even if they change away from that class.

My character was heavily influenced by being a Paladin - though much more by the organisations being a Paladin meant he was a part of than the class itself - but all of those things don't just disappear because I picked up Blademaster too.

I guess the identity thing is less of an issue with sword wielding classes. Moving between Pally and Runie makes a lot of sense. Multiclassing Jester with, for example, alchemist less so. Maybe Jester / Shaman would fit better though. Like I said, I'm not saying this is bad at all, just don't see the excitement that some others do

Trey

I for one think that aside from the alignment opposed classes, any combination makes as much sense as you're willing to put into it. A Jester/Alchemist? A fun-loving goofball whose magic started to become more than illusion (or if you're more like @Beya, a fucked-up Jester who started experimenting with new ways to mindfuck people). For me, if I end up Infernal/Serpent? I'm sliding further into my path becoming the sly agent that still retains a sense of Honour. If I go Blademaster? I furthered my career as a swordsman by learning how to use those ridiculously spindly (compared to a longsword) Kashari swords.

Edit: Infernal/Bard? Enhance my cocky prettyboy persona by making the ladies swoon with singing and music.

Ashelynne

I'm pretty much just going to echo a couple points I feel are the most pressing.

The first is the requisite THANK YOU to @Tecton and @Sarapis and whoever else worked endlessly behind the scenes for this massive change to Achaea. The fact that people immediately complain about being given more of something is beyond me. People, you didn't have anything taken away, you had more handed to you! Show a little gratitude and less attitude!

Every IRE that has introduced multi-classing does it a little differently. Not at all surprising, as that's the case with most things IRE does. That said, I do wholeheartedly agree that if various classes share an entire skill (Devotion, Chivalry, Tarot, Weaponmastery, Groves, Metamorphosis, Necromancy), it is a massive downer to have to re-learn it from scratch, especially with the increase in lesson cost per class. It would be phenomenal (and I'm going out on a limb to say wildly rejoiced) if these shared skills did not start over at 0% inept. Making them swap over starting somewhere between Virtuoso and Mythical would be extremely gracious, and far less frustrating. Of course, I don't think anyone would balk if these shared skills simply transferred over at Transcendent... but I'm trying for a reasonable middle ground between continuing to treat IRE's player base well, and IRE being a business not just a game.

I'm all for multi-classing requiring levels, or payment. Encouraging players to have goals to get to something for "free" (let's not argue semantics over paying for the lessons in the class itself right here) or otherwise having to pay for instant gratification doesn't seem all that far fetched. Besides, if you have the money to dish out for class skills, the thought is probably that you have the money to dish out for the class itself by getting it prematurely. Also, most cities seem to have rewards for getting to Dragon these days so... get to Dragon, get an ADDITIONAL end game class by just getting to Dragon, get City rewards, possibly House rewards, and the option to get another class. The problem is...?

Along that line of thought, I am surprised that the cost of the additional classes went up, and the time for switching classes went down so drastically for the artifacts. I mean, the first artifact cutting the time in half for 350 credits seemed entirely reasonable to me, as did the others. This is probably not a popular sentiment but it is an honest one.

The last thing that was of note to me was the fact that player traits are going to be tied in per class, and yet the option to change your racial spec for each class is not an option. If the thought was that racial traits are permissible as changes, and necessary, then I'm missing the notion that brought about the opinion that racial specs aren't. If there is any way that being able to choose a racial spec for each class could be added it would be fantastic. And anyhow, if you ever wanted to reincarnate by doing it that way, you'd have to buy a dagger of reincarnation for each class if you wanted to reincarnate for more than one of them. It's really a win-win situation.

Ruth

Next question! @Tecton, did I understand right that the 50% lesson refunds for classes I quit are scaled based on how much lessons I put into it? Eg: I tri-transed my 2nd class, so I get 50% of 7500 invested lessons back if I quit it?

Sarapis

If I can be things as diverse as a Game Designer and a Martial Artist, and a Photographer, and a Skier, and a Husband, and a Burner, and a Mountain Biker, and an Entrepreneur, and am demonstrably a real character, I am positive that Achaean characters can manage to combine being a Paladin and an Alchemist. 

If you can use one word to sum up your character, whether it be "hero" or "Monk", what you have isn't so much a character, but a caricature. You guys are some creative people. I'm positive you'll manage it just fine.

Tesha

I don't get how people could possibly be upset by multiclass unless they expected the classes to be free or something. It's 900 credits to trans a class the first time, 1250 isn't exceptionally shocking. If you're disappointed you can't instantly unlock 5 classes, you should remember that you need to trans your first class to be able to multiclass to your second. I'm pretty sure it's the same for second->third->fourth, etc. So unless you have 12,000 credits and some Mizik-like desire to be able to play 5 classes, or if you thought all your previous classes would be available to you for free, I'm very confused why you would be upset. It's not even particularly damaging to immersion, there are other things that are far more problematic, such as classleads and issues. I can see a lot of people wanting to swap between 2 classes, so being able to pick up a second class at 1,250 credits is awesome for the general population. Great work admin, mostly everyone I've heard from seems really excited about this.

Sarapis

Ashelynne said:

The first is the requisite THANK YOU to @Tecton and @Sarapis and whoever else worked endlessly behind the scenes for this massive change to Achaea. The fact that people immediately complain about being given more of something is beyond me. People, you didn't have anything taken away, you had more handed to you! Show a little gratitude and less attitude!

Thanks! We're pretty used to some people complaining absolutely no matter what though. We've literally had complaints when giving out free credits, from people who say it's unfair other people got them for free when they bought theirs (nevermind that everybody was getting free credits in the same amount at the same time). 

Along that line of thought, I am surprised that the cost of the additional classes went up, and the time for switching classes went down so drastically for the artifacts. I mean, the first artifact cutting the time in half for 350 credits seemed entirely reasonable to me, as did the others. 

Those were changed, but only because they didn't go in according to plan. In the case of the slot costs, it just got forgotten, and defaulted to using the 100 credits that tradeskills cost (note that miniskills cost somewhere in the range of 40% of a skill, and that the slot costs are scaled similarly). Not sure what happened in the case of the arties, but the advantages they give now are what we agreed on.

Antonius

Ugh, just realised I'm going to have to mess around with decaying armour now. Multiclass is the worst thing ever.

Sarapis

Ruth said:

Next question! @Tecton, did I understand right that the 50% lesson refunds for classes I quit are scaled based on how much lessons I put into it? Eg: I tri-transed my 2nd class, so I get 50% of 7500 invested lessons back if I quit it?

That's certainly the intention!

Ashelynne

Sarapis said:

Ruth said:

Next question! @Tecton, did I understand right that the 50% lesson refunds for classes I quit are scaled based on how much lessons I put into it? Eg: I tri-transed my 2nd class, so I get 50% of 7500 invested lessons back if I quit it?

That's certainly the intention!

Oh no! @Sarapis is paving the path to hell! (good intentions, hur hur)

Telendrieth

Sarapis said:

If I can be things as diverse as a Game Designer and a Martial Artist, and a Photographer, and a Skier, and a Husband, and a Burner, and a Mountain Biker, and an Entrepreneur, and am demonstrably a real character.."

 @Sarapis Goodness, next time you add something to your life you're going to have to spend a very long time and waaay too many lessons!
(Legitimately no snark, I just saw an opportunity and I had to. :P)

And for all the folks who can't see an issue, or understand why people may dislike the aspects of the system, that's fine. Just be adult enough to realize that other people don't have to be wrong for you to be right. I love that it's added, and I quite respect the amount of time put into it. I just feel like it is slightly too gated and priced for what all it actually gives.

Skye

Even though I bought the creds for it, the price gives me second thoughts cause what I'll have leftover to play around with isn't quite as much as I thought it would be. It's probably because I'm not a habitual class changer.

It's nice to have the option, but I think I'll sit it out a while more while they iron out any other bugs and maybe some kind soul implements support for it on svof >_>

Tecton

Sarapis said:

Ruth said:

Next question! @Tecton, did I understand right that the 50% lesson refunds for classes I quit are scaled based on how much lessons I put into it? Eg: I tri-transed my 2nd class, so I get 50% of 7500 invested lessons back if I quit it?

That's certainly the intention!

And the case in reality!

Khel

Sarapis said:

Ashelynne said:

The first is the requisite THANK YOU to @Tecton and @Sarapis and whoever else worked endlessly behind the scenes for this massive change to Achaea. The fact that people immediately complain about being given more of something is beyond me. People, you didn't have anything taken away, you had more handed to you! Show a little gratitude and less attitude!

Thanks! We're pretty used to some people complaining absolutely no matter what though. We've literally had complaints when giving out free credits, from people who say it's unfair other people got them for free when they bought theirs (nevermind that everybody was getting free credits in the same amount at the same time). 

You can give me theirs next time, I won't be ungrateful!

Ruth

The traits that one has is tied to classes, which means that I can have a set of traits for my 2nd class which is entirely different from my primary class right?

Sarapis

Ruth said:

The traits that one has is tied to classes, which means that I can have a set of traits for my 2nd class which is entirely different from my primary class right?

They're tied to slots I believe, not classes specifically.

Kotaru

I still haven't seen an answer to my question 'What is the harm in having multiple non-transed classes that you can only switch between every 12 hours anyway?' There -are- people who aren't habitual class changers who would like to make use of this. Y'know, people for whom the Iron Elite is already pretty pricey. (I'm paying $35 AUD for that now. AUD is under .7 USD.)

I guess I'm just 'entitled'.

Ruth

Oh, so that means if I happen to quit my 2nd slot class to choose another class when I've already set my set of traits, I'll have to reset it?

Tael

Aelios said:

We finally have the ability to play more than 1 class on the same character, at the same time... and people are complaining?

The self entitlement is massive here. It even smells funny...

I'm not really sure I'd call it entitlement when we're being asked to pay for something. I don't see anyone saying that multiclass should be totally free. And the cost is quite large. Virtually no one has access to more than one or two slots, additional slots were already 100 credits, now they're suddenly 250 with no warning, and on top of that each one also costs more and more lessons to learn, most of which are going to come from credits, and if you want to swap more than once every 12 hours you're paying more credits, and if you want to play classes that require a different racial spec (say serpent, which requires a high dex to be at all effective and has little use for int, and occultist, which requires a highish int to be effective and has little use for dex), you're paying more credits. It is priced rather high, and, even if it weren't, telling a company that you think something is overpriced is not an expression of unreasonable entitlement.

Whether you or I agree notwithstanding (I'm pretty ambivalent about the pricing - it's relatively high, but I also like that a high price means not everyone will have seven different classes), I don't see anything wrong with a customer commenting to say that a new offering seems overpriced to them.

...

Regarding RP, I continue to fail to understand why everyone continues to act as though the only possibilities are that you completely and totally restrict your RP to class RP and that's one-dimensional and bad or class doesn't inform RP at all. Virtually every character has always fallen somewhere in the middle. Was Amunet more than just an occultist? Of course. Was being an occultist a huge part of Amunet's RP? Of course. That's true of almost every memorable character, and the vast majority of less-memorable characters too - some degree of their roleplaying was informed by their class, just like some degree of your real-life character and narrative is informed by what you do. A character whose only defining quality is that they're a knight is boring, but a character who performs all of the actions as a knight, fights like a knight, rides like a knight, has a falcon like a knight, and doesn't take that into account at all is equally weird.

And suggesting that players are creative and can figure it out is all well and good for the players who care to figure it out, but a lot of players obviously won't. One of the benefits of the way Achaea is structured is that it's easy to manage a sort of half-assed RP that doesn't intrude on the people who care more about roleplaying. So you can play the game even if RP doesn't interest you at all (which is totally fine) and you largely don't intrude on people who do care about RP and immersion (which is also totally fine). Even if you didn't roleplay much at all, there was nothing odd about someone who was an alchemist - that's just a thing in the world - so there's no roleplaying required to retain immersion, you don't have to come up with any real explanation for what being an alchemist means or how that happened. But a jester/alchemist is at least a little bit odd. When you see that person, you're going to wonder what's up with that. And, for many players, the answer will be that they don't really care about RP, so they don't have an answer. That's at least a minor problem, and the creativity of players who do care doesn't ameliorate it.

That minimum, inherent RP is the thing that I'm going to miss to some degree. Not the characters who come up with explanations and roleplay signs that they're "both classes at once" (like many, including me, already did for our previous classes after changing classes), but the effect of all the people who won't.

And I wouldn't brush aside stereotypical RP as quickly either. There's probably something to be said for being able to fall back on relatively simple class-based RP when necessary, for those people who are largely uninterested in RP. If you don't care much about RP, but some interaction essentially demands it and you don't want to break someone else's immersion, it's easy to just play the stereotypical knight. Is it super compelling and an interesting character? No, but you don't care - you're not interested in RP. You don't have that to fall back on in the same way when you play an alchemist/jester - there is no easy, stereotypical alchemist/jester concept for people uninterested in RP to fall back on when they need to roleplay.

But I don't think either of those are particularly nasty issues. There's nothing too wrong with being a jester/alchemist, even if you don't personally worry about what that means RP-wise. What's a lot weirder and harder to overlook is the strange way you can only be one at a time and you mechanically, instantly swap between them with absolutely no IC justification. I can buy that someone can be an alchemist and a jester. I could suspend disbelief when people occasionally swapped classes and "forgot" all of their skills and learned a totally new profession in a few "days" or a "month". But I find it a lot harder to suspend disbelief when someone says "Give me five minutes so I can swap to Runewarden" or "Sorry, I can't do your runes, I'm sentinel right now and I can't swap for another two hours". And those are going to come up a lot more often than the old occasional "I'm changing to Runewarden today". And it seems like it would be so easy to add just a modicum of IC justification, just a single tweaked message or something, that I really just fundamentally don't understand why there's such an insistence that it shouldn't be done because it "isn't needed". What's the downside?

None of this is catastrophic or anything, and I don't have any sort of dire, fundamental problem with multiclass, but I also don't like this thing where everyone is pretending like there are no downsides and anyone who expresses any sort of concern is just hysterical and on some sort of seemingly personal crusade against Matt and co. or something.

I think this could have been done better, and I think a very small tweak would go a long way to helping, and some people think the pricing is off - none of those seem like unreasonable opinions to voice or seem worthy of feigned incredulity that anyone would complain about anything or suggestions that anyone is entitled or anything like that.

I think that's my final novel for a while.

Szanthax

Not sure if I broke life...

Class:                   Runewarden              (full member)

Lesson modifier:         0%

Class skills:            Devotion                (Inept)

                         Chivalry                (Transcendent)

                         Spirituality            (Inept)

                         Runelore                (Transcendent)

                         Weaponmastery           (Transcendent)

Switching cooldown:      12 hours, 55 minutes, and 57 seconds.

Ruth

Antonius said:

If you don't want your current primary class, just quit it and then stay as the second one? If you ever want to pick up a second class again later on, I assume you'd just pay the primary class cost.

It's more like.. does my 2nd slot now count as my primary class, and whatever I learn in my 1st slot will cost me 2500 lessons/transed skill? @Tecton

Szanthax

Wow i'm special.... very special. just ask my momma

Antonius

Ruth said:

Antonius said:

If you don't want your current primary class, just quit it and then stay as the second one? If you ever want to pick up a second class again later on, I assume you'd just pay the primary class cost.

It's more like.. does my 2nd slot now count as my primary class, and whatever I learn in my 1st slot will cost me 2500 lessons/transed skill? @Tecton

I would wait for Tecton to confirm, but as far as I can tell it should work like this: When you quit your primary class, your primary class slot is now empty. You get back 50% of the lessons spent on your primary class (so 1738 per Trans skill). Your second class stays as your second class.

If you gain another class, it fills the first empty slot it finds (your primary slot), and you learn with the primary slot modifier (100%).

That's the same way tradeskills work, if I'm not mistaken.

Szanthax

@tecton *whine* .... 

I love/hate you guys...