Shop Change - Only owners can pay taxes

Rispok

Halos said:

Do shopowners actually pay taxes in Delos? I always thought one of the benefits of having a Delosian shop was, in addition to no arbitrary chancellery policies or city laws, no real taxes.

yes

Kyrra

Delos taxes are a gold sink.

Halos

what happens when they stop

Klendathu

I would guess the shop goes up for auction as there's no player run city to take possession

Khaibit

I rent 2 shops... how am I meant to pay the taxes now?

And yes, delos shop owners pay taxes, I own a delos shop and pay the rent there. 

Trey

Unnecessary and tedious. All this is going to do is make life more difficult for at least 40-50% of folks. The only thing that even might be a perk is if Kez fucks up and I can finally buy the Crystal Leaf, but even that silver lining is based on misfortune on behalf of someone else.

Jules

It actually might be leaving too much control in player hands to achieve the desired result (in other words, it sounds like it would be more work - even more tedious work, but if they really want to, players may be able to almost completely maintain the status quo here). 

Mishgul

I like a good shake up. I, for one, am excited to get beaten up in 3 months for stealing someones Delos shop.

Trilliana

Halos said:

Do shopowners actually pay taxes in Delos? I always thought one of the benefits of having a Delosian shop was, in addition to no arbitrary chancellery policies or city laws, no real taxes.

Yes, as someone who rents in Delos, gotta pay taxes there too. 

Sasiya

I completely missed that line about shop taxes in the announce post. Personally, I'd think something that affects peoples' valuable possessions in this manner should be more visible. Perhaps a news post of its own that explains the underlying issues and why the decision to enact this change was made in the first place?

That aside, I think this is a great idea. If you're not logging into the game, you shouldn't be owning a shop. And perhaps this is going to sound a bit offensive, but frankly, if you know you are going away from the game for an extended period of time, you can spare enough time to sell your shop and get most of your investment back. You might not get as much as if you were auctioning it off over an extended period of time, but even on a short notice, shops ought to sell for a fair amount of credits.

For anyone ending up hospitalized or otherwise unable to use a device to access the internet, I am truly sorry for you. I hope you will make a full recovery from your injuries or illness and perhaps someday in the future continue to enjoy playing Achaea.

Jules

Since shops don't really seem to be owned in the first place, could cities (and I think Melchior for Delos) do a one time partial compensation for players who end up losing "their" shop (which they probably did pay a king's ransom for - especially in Delos)?  In some cases, these people are so incredibly dormant that if they do care, it's kind of silly, but it would be a nice gesture, for sure.   

Then, in the interest of regular-ish shop turnover (but not so frequently it's unworkable), could cities have a designated time when everyone knew that all the shops were up for "contract renewal" and people could bid to run them for a designated period?  That would also let people get a good idea of whether or not their profits would make a bid financially viable.  Things would probably still end up overpriced because Achaeans are completely nuts when it comes to this stuff, but in theory you'd be able to look at the amount of time you'd have control over the shop and guestimate whether you could turn a profit.  It should also help keep prices reasonable-ish because no one would kid themselves about how long they'd "own" the shop.  But yeah, the idea of "owning" a shop actually doesn't seem to fit (and apparently never fit).  It's a misnomer.   

Mishgul

I was once quoted a price of 300 cr for a shop. At the time I was a forging knight and the shop I rented made a profit of around 8000 gold a week, which would mean I would start breaking even in 6 irl years? That said, forging  was standardized a lot and I don't know what the profit margins of a minimally maintained shop would be these days.

Melodie

I admit that while these changes cause a lot of issues and I think there could be other work arounds, I am in favor of making shops change hands more often than every five irl years, and making them more affordable. I also would like there to be some kind of limit - no single individual needs 6, 8, 12 shops. 

Jules

:P Well, at least if people bid to "own" a shop for a time, we might get a bit closer to that price you were quoted (Mishgul).  The announce already helps people not kid themselves that they're going to own the shop "forever", but apparently leaves a lot of leeway for cities to maintain things almost as they are.  That, and it leaves things indefinite.  In theory, I *could* keep the shop forever (or at least for an incredibly long time).

Aktillum

Speaking as the Chancellor of Eleusis, its not a huge or bad change for us. 4 of our shops are "House owned" so their taxes are always paid on time, and the rest of the shops are bought, except for 1 shop which is under a 10 year lease.

Because Eleusis only has 6 available shops and people constantly asking if any are available, it would put a lot more gold in Eleusis' pocket from auctioning off shops if owners suddenly started going dormant and not paying taxes. So sucks for the owners, but good for city coffers, if it comes to that

Jules

4 out of 6 available shops are "House" shops... This sort of thing would show up most in Eleusis because you have so few shops to begin with, but wow.  Like I said, I wouldn't be sad to see those go.  I can absolutely tell that people are going to fight this with a death grip, but look, org leader/bureaucrat burnout is a constant complaint.  Is it really, really necessary to pile this extra piece of player created bloat on top of all those other duties?  Anyway, yeah, if those shops (including those 4 "house" shops) actually had some turnover I bet you'd really see some income. 

Jules

(actually I'm not sure if you mean 4 out of 6 or 4 out of 10 when I think about it, but it's a pretty big chunk of your shops either way)

Aktillum

@Jules sorry, I meant that out of 10 shops, 4 are House owned, the other 6 are owned by individuals.

Come to think of it, Im not sure whats going to happen to the House shops now that Eleusis only has 2 Houses

edit: damn my brain doesn't work after midnight. 3 are House owned, one is "Eleusis owned" (ministry of trade)

edit edit: just talked to Alrena what we're doing with the extra "House" shop, all is good.

Siduri

@Jules : I'm in charge of two House shops, and looking to expand with a third. However, this degree of activity in the Luminai is explained by the fact that we have an entire path dedicated to commerce, with aides working as a chain of supply. However, I am fully aware that as High Mercator, I am theorically the owner of these shops, but that I will have to pass them on to the next High Mercator when the time comes.

Jules

Thanks for the clarification(s)!  I mean, it can be useful to have an org owned shop.  Cyrene has one that seems to be sort of city run, which is used to help ensure everyone is stocked up for raids... But it seems like the number of shops being managed that way needs to be really closely looked at within the context of how many shops are available.  I also wonder if there's a chance of Eleusis being given more shop slots.  I ask because if Achaea really does become more conflict oriented there may come a time when you really need those shops. 

Kez

Sarapis said:

Siduri said:

I actually admit I am thrilled by this change.
No offense, but I've been ogling the Delos shops for quite a while, wondering if one of the dormant owners will one day pop to put its empty shop for sale.

You are a textbook case of why we made the change! We want active players owning shops, not people who don't play any more. 

One of Achaea's biggest problems is calcification - people who own shops forever without really playing, people who hog leadership positions forever without actually really doing anything, and so on. These are limited resources that are one of the potential 'rewards' or aspirational reasons to play the game, and it sucks to watch people hold onto them even though they're not putting any effort into managing those shops (or political positions, etc). 

I have been dreaming of 'owning delos' (every shop there) for a very long time. It's Kez's unrealistic life-long goal. It took 200 years to get one, and that was the very happiest day I've ever had on any character in achaea, and for that I am eternally grateful to the person who sold it to me.

@Siduri, I'll see you at the auction block.

@Sarapis, does this mean that something will be put in place to take down absent leaders? Maybe automatic elections for negligible activity levels?

@Trey, the crystal leaf isn't mine. That'd be @Brae. I'll gladly buy it though if she wants to sell. Further, I'm not a target of this change. I pay my own taxes every year, usually in Sarapin, and stock my own shops. Lots of people can tell you that I usually won't even stock another person's goods due to craftsman pride. I thoroughly enjoy managing my shops and I lust for more because three shops do not provide enough of a fix for my shop management addiction. I've had long periods of Kez just being too depressing to play, and my shops were the only thing that kept me logging in and doing things, even if it was only one day a week, until I pulled Kez out of that funk.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. This change is a minor inconvenience - shop owners who rent will have to up their rent to compensate for taxes and spend an extra minute or two every two weeks paying those taxes. If they like their shop, they probably already head over to the shop to verify that the renter has paid the taxes anyway. In exchange for that, it becomes difficult for shops to be hoarded by people who don't even play. Every city is limited in the number of shops it can house. They can't just say "Oh, 20 people want shops, let's make a few more."

This is not going to result in the loss of your shop because you had an accident and couldn't log in for a few weeks. There is no city I know of that will seize a shop for one or two achaean years of back taxes, and Delos is the same. You'd have at least a month in the hospital before you had to worry about that, and, if you can get a message to someone asking them to pay your taxes, there's no reason you can't log in once every two weeks and do it yourself. Even after they close a shop, whether it's in a city or in Delos, it will sit there for a very long time before being sold to the next person, which gives you a chance to negotiate to have it returned to you.

Jacen

Shops are a heavy investment and forcing shop turnover this way is going to have very long lasting IC consequences for people.

For example, the Lotus has two houses, and barely enough presence to run one of them. I would be happy to return our shop on the ass end of Hashan back to the city, but it was purchased with 1500 credits. I would probably take an 80% loss on that if I were to sell it. 

That means there's exactly 0 incentive for me to return that shop to the pool. I would face heavy IC consequences in my House if I were to return it for an 80% loss. Luckily (hopefully) I have an impending renaissance to absolve me of any consequences of that.

Siduri

Kez said:

Sarapis said:

Siduri said:

I actually admit I am thrilled by this change.
No offense, but I've been ogling the Delos shops for quite a while, wondering if one of the dormant owners will one day pop to put its empty shop for sale.

You are a textbook case of why we made the change! We want active players owning shops, not people who don't play any more. 

One of Achaea's biggest problems is calcification - people who own shops forever without really playing, people who hog leadership positions forever without actually really doing anything, and so on. These are limited resources that are one of the potential 'rewards' or aspirational reasons to play the game, and it sucks to watch people hold onto them even though they're not putting any effort into managing those shops (or political positions, etc). 

@Siduri, I'll see you at the auction block.

Jules

Jacen said:

Shops are a heavy investment and forcing shop turnover this way is going to have very long lasting IC consequences for people.

For example, the Lotus has two houses, and barely enough presence to run one of them. I would be happy to return our shop on the ass end of Hashan back to the city, but it was purchased with 1500 credits. I would probably take an 80% loss on that if I were to sell it. 

That means there's exactly 0 incentive for me to return that shop to the pool. I would face heavy IC consequences in my House if I were to return it for an 80% loss. Luckily (hopefully) I have an impending renaissance to absolve me of any consequences of that.

^This post is exactly why there should be a one time compensation (in this case from city coffers I guess - and honestly, if shops turn over more than once every several RL years, even at *far* less insane prices, you'll be making credits hand over fist anyway).  But yeah, people have paid king's ransoms for these shops they don't exactly own, but overall, it's clear that a lot of people would be incredibly excited to run a shop if it were more accessible, and it removes what seems like it almost has to be a burden in many cases from org leadership shoulders. 

Jacen

The flip side of that is it has allowed me the opportunity to lease the shop to people for very cheap. Yearly taxes plus 10% profits, or 5k per year, or something stupidly cheap. Before, I could lease the shop to someone and let them have total run of the place. Now I've gotta stay on top of it and make sure I pay the yearly taxes even though I otherwise don't have anything to do with the shop being run.

Jules

Jacen said:

The flip side of that is it has allowed me the opportunity to lease the shop to people for very cheap. Yearly taxes plus 10% profits, or 5k per year, or something stupidly cheap. Before, I could lease the shop to someone and let them have total run of the place. Now I've gotta stay on top of it and make sure I pay the yearly taxes even though I otherwise don't have anything to do with the shop being run.

The problem with that is that it's a "sweetheart deal" like I mentioned on page 1.  Not picking on you, by the way, but the tendency there is going to very much be "you gotta know somebody" to get in on the deal, so it falls into that category of "calcification", just in a slightly different way.  Also, while I'm generally on the side of "you people really need to be more respectful of your own pocketbooks" when it comes to Achaea in particular, our players can also be incredibly entitled at times.  I doubt shops were ever *really* intended to be owned pretty much forever.  But shops being priced and sold as if that were true *is* something that deserves attention.   

Bluef

This is a terrible idea for all the reasons already enumerated. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned but...

Beyond people who rent shops, Houses and Orders also place certain people as 'owners' and then have others as the Shopkeepers. Unless shops can become properly org-owned, there is a danger that a semi-dormant 'owner' - who does not personally own a shop, but holds it on behalf of an org - could lose the entire shebang for their group due to nonpayment. That's..not right. 

Edit: Do let me know if I've missed something about Orders/Houses and their ability to own such properties.

Kyrra

That's actually been a case in Ashtan with a shop belonging to a certain house and getting a manager for it has been exceedingly difficult. Everyone always goes dormant.

Speaking as Ashtan's Chancellor though, it's always been in our policies that any shops that belong to a House (and are maintained by that House) are always moved to the possession of the currently HL. If the HL changes, the shops are transferred to the new HL. It's up to the HL/House to organise a manager.

I always considered shops that are Order/House owned to be a practical way for those organisations to bring in gold for whatever. The Ashura and the Warlocks have rented out some of their shops, while running others themselves.

Also @Jules, regarding cities giving people compensation for lost shops - not all cities have coffers the size of Cyrene. Most shops are valued at or over 20m gold and expecting a city to pay a person that much gold for a shop is a bit ridiculous. If a city had to do that for more than one shop, they'd be bankrupt pretty fast. 

Khaibit

Dear Mister Sarapis

Within the next few months, I am due to have an operation. It should only take me a week or two to get out of the hospital, but it could take 2 months or more before I'm up and about again, and able to play achaea as there are many risks involved and complications are always a factor. Hell, I might die, but then I wouldn't care about my shop at least I guess. 
I bought a delos shop, it cost me a lot of credits. My plan had been to get a friend to run the shop in delos and pay the taxes so that when I return I can pick it up again and play with the very expensive toy that I enjoy.

You yourself have put a price on delos shops, as when new ones are auctioned off by the game, they sell for many millions. This means you are aware of the investment involved in these particular shops, and that they are owned, rather than merely borrowed.  

If it were in a normal city, I could do what I intend to do with the shops I rent, and pay in advance and let the chancellor sort it out. 

What am I meant to do in delos? I intend to return to achaea (you know, unless I die) but with this current plan, I might very well come back to find my shop has gone because I went and caught an infection, or complications that are very much not my choice. 

Herenicus

Could temporarily offer credits to individuals selling their shops in light of this change, to cushion a significant and  foreseeable drop in property values. Otherwise, I really like the change. We don't need dead hands steering our game economy.