Shop Change - Only owners can pay taxes

Bluef

Khaibit said:

Dear Mister Sarapis

Within the next few months, I am due to have an operation. It should only take me a week or two to get out of the hospital, but it could take 2 months or more before I'm up and about again, and able to play achaea as there are many risks involved and complications are always a factor. Hell, I might die, but then I wouldn't care about my shop at least I guess. 
I bought a delos shop, it cost me a lot of credits. My plan had been to get a friend to run the shop in delos and pay the taxes so that when I return I can pick it up again and play with the very expensive toy that I enjoy.

You yourself have put a price on delos shops, as when new ones are auctioned off by the game, they sell for many millions. This means you are aware of the investment involved in these particular shops, and that they are owned, rather than merely borrowed.  

If it were in a normal city, I could do what I intend to do with the shops I rent, and pay in advance and let the chancellor sort it out. 

What am I meant to do in delos? I intend to return to achaea (you know, unless I die) but with this current plan, I might very well come back to find my shop has gone because I went and caught an infection, or complications that are very much not my choice. 

I can't even figure out how to see what taxes are owed on the Order shop in Delos I "own." The regular city command doesn't work.  

Jules

Khaibit said:

Dear Mister Sarapis

Within the next few months, I am due to have an operation. It should only take me a week or two to get out of the hospital, but it could take 2 months or more before I'm up and about again, and able to play achaea as there are many risks involved and complications are always a factor. Hell, I might die, but then I wouldn't care about my shop at least I guess. 
I bought a delos shop, it cost me a lot of credits. My plan had been to get a friend to run the shop in delos and pay the taxes so that when I return I can pick it up again and play with the very expensive toy that I enjoy.

You yourself have put a price on delos shops, as when new ones are auctioned off by the game, they sell for many millions. This means you are aware of the investment involved in these particular shops, and that they are owned, rather than merely borrowed.  

If it were in a normal city, I could do what I intend to do with the shops I rent, and pay in advance and let the chancellor sort it out. 

What am I meant to do in delos? I intend to return to achaea (you know, unless I die) but with this current plan, I might very well come back to find my shop has gone because I went and caught an infection, or complications that are very much not my choice. 

Can you train a non-playing friend to log in and pay them?  That seems to make a lot of sense in your case. 

Siduri

Khaibit said:

Dear Mister Sarapis

Within the next few months, I am due to have an operation. It should only take me a week or two to get out of the hospital, but it could take 2 months or more before I'm up and about again, and able to play achaea as there are many risks involved and complications are always a factor. Hell, I might die, but then I wouldn't care about my shop at least I guess. 
I bought a delos shop, it cost me a lot of credits. My plan had been to get a friend to run the shop in delos and pay the taxes so that when I return I can pick it up again and play with the very expensive toy that I enjoy.

You yourself have put a price on delos shops, as when new ones are auctioned off by the game, they sell for many millions. This means you are aware of the investment involved in these particular shops, and that they are owned, rather than merely borrowed.  

If it were in a normal city, I could do what I intend to do with the shops I rent, and pay in advance and let the chancellor sort it out. 

What am I meant to do in delos? I intend to return to achaea (you know, unless I die) but with this current plan, I might very well come back to find my shop has gone because I went and caught an infection, or complications that are very much not my choice. 

Just a small question, why can't you transfer ownership of your shop to your friend for the duration of your recovery? If you trust him or her enough to manage it, why not simply grant ownership and retrieve it when you're back?

Is this even possible, I mean, @Sarapis?

(Also, wishing you the best on your operation and recovery, @Khaibit)

Jules

Kyrra said:

Also @Jules, regarding cities giving people compensation for lost shops - not all cities have coffers the size of Cyrene. Most shops are valued at or over 20m gold and expecting a city to pay a person that much gold for a shop is a bit ridiculous. If a city had to do that for more than one shop, they'd be bankrupt pretty fast. 

See, we dominate the world in at least one area :P  That's definitely a valid concern.  Maybe it *is* too much to expect of cities, or at the very least they shouldn't shoulder the burden alone, but I do think this will go over nicer if admin finds a way to soften the blow. 

Khaibit

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Jules

Khaibit, that's why the best thing I can think of is a good RL friend who is like "what is an Achaea"? 

Siduri

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

I'm sorry for you 

Sarapis

Bluef said:

I can't even figure out how to see what taxes are owed on the Order shop in Delos I "own." The regular city command doesn't work.  

It's right there in HELP SHOPOWNER.

CITY SHOP INFO.

Sarapis

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Hope your surgery goes ok! Delos shops don't get re-auctioned unless someone is in pretty serious arrears in terms of taxes, so I wouldn't worry about it too much in the case of a month's absence. In case of multiple months though and trusting someone with your shop, what I'd suggest you do have them give you the equivalent value in gold or credits so that if they do rip you off, you're whole. Of course, that would mean that person has to HAVE that much gold/credits to begin with, I'll grant you. 

Khaibit

Sarapis said:

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Hope your surgery goes ok! Delos shops don't get re-auctioned unless someone is in pretty serious arrears in terms of taxes, so I wouldn't worry about it too much in the case of a month's absence. In case of multiple months though and trusting someone with your shop, what I'd suggest you do have them give you the equivalent value in gold or credits so that if they do rip you off, you're whole. Of course, that would mean that person has to HAVE that much gold/credits to begin with, I'll grant you. 

There aren't really that many people walking around with that many credits/gold, and none of whom are my friends I am sure.. unless they're hiding things from me!

Achimrst

Khaibit said:

Sarapis said:

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Hope your surgery goes ok! Delos shops don't get re-auctioned unless someone is in pretty serious arrears in terms of taxes, so I wouldn't worry about it too much in the case of a month's absence. In case of multiple months though and trusting someone with your shop, what I'd suggest you do have them give you the equivalent value in gold or credits so that if they do rip you off, you're whole. Of course, that would mean that person has to HAVE that much gold/credits to begin with, I'll grant you. 

There aren't really that many people walking around with that many credits/gold, and none of whom are my friends I am sure.. unless they're hiding things from me!

I'll give you all my talisman pieces for a month, but I want them back!

Siduri

Sarapis said:

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Hope your surgery goes ok! Delos shops don't get re-auctioned unless someone is in pretty serious arrears in terms of taxes, so I wouldn't worry about it too much in the case of a month's absence. In case of multiple months though and trusting someone with your shop, what I'd suggest you do have them give you the equivalent value in gold or credits so that if they do rip you off, you're whole. Of course, that would mean that person has to HAVE that much gold/credits to begin with, I'll grant you. 

What I can suggest would be to allow cities to take automatic payments from the person's bank account in the same city. When the cash's out, the shop's gone. But then that would mean people could also make deposits in their friend's accounts.

Sarapis

Nope, that's the same as just letting dormant people continue to own shops. That's not actually a change from today.

Siduri

Sarapis said:

Nope, that's the same as just letting dormant people continue to own shops. That's not actually a change from today.

Yeah my second sentence was me coming to that realization too!

Maybe, simply in the case of Delos shops, allow owners to give an ETA by email, and then you can hand-pick from there?

Jacen

As expensive as shops are, there really needs to be some kind of return on investment. That's a pretty cutthroat deal and makes owning a shop a pretty big liability.

Sarapis

Shops already in existence are only as expensive as you guys decide they'll be. The price on them will decline if you think they're worth less. And if they don't, then clearly people think that's what they're worth regardless of this change.

Siduri

Khaibit said:

Sarapis said:

Khaibit said:

There is a vast difference in trusting someone to pay taxes and stock a shop, than handing over something that cost me 4200 credits and hope they'll give it back. 

Hope your surgery goes ok! Delos shops don't get re-auctioned unless someone is in pretty serious arrears in terms of taxes, so I wouldn't worry about it too much in the case of a month's absence. In case of multiple months though and trusting someone with your shop, what I'd suggest you do have them give you the equivalent value in gold or credits so that if they do rip you off, you're whole. Of course, that would mean that person has to HAVE that much gold/credits to begin with, I'll grant you. 

There aren't really that many people walking around with that many credits/gold, and none of whom are my friends I am sure.. unless they're hiding things from me!

I do, but it's org property  
(so I'm not allowed to spend it!)

Aerek

While I understand the backlash, it's really not the Admin's fault that Achaean shops got so absurdly expensive. I cannot even begin to fathom the willingness to drop US$1000+ just to sell cures and trinkets in an MMO, nevermind the cost efficiency of doing so. At 4000cr, you'd have to make 10k profit, after stocking expenses and taxes, every single day for 7 real years just to break even on that investment. Is that even remotely feasible? (And even if it is, that's still 7 real years--that's longer than a real car payment.)

Seriously, I have sympathy for shop owners, this is certainly a cause for concern, but at the same time, paying 2000cr or 4000cr for a shop was just not a wise decision in the first place. If we'd done more, as a community, to check the ever-rising shop price inflation, (Like saying "lolno" when people started asking 2000cr and up) we wouldn't be in this boat, so we can't put the Admin on the hook for that.

Herenicus

The incentive for shop ownership should be limited to operating profits, not investment potential. Otherwise, you encourage absentee ownership and buy-and-hold speculation.

Sarapis

@Herenicus The only way we could do that would be to not permit people to transfer shops to others, and that sucks a bit. Well, or repossess all shops in the game and put them under admin ownership, and then rent them out to players. But again, that doesn't seem very satisfying to me.

Nim

This change gives me hope that veils could be deleted someday.

Jacen

Sarapis said:

Shops already in existence are only as expensive as you guys decide they'll be. The price on them will decline if you think they're worth less. And if they don't, then clearly people think that's what they're worth regardless of this change.

I don't think this is a wholly accurate statement. The price of many many things (most notably auction artefacts) are a reflection of their perceived value to a very small number of people with a very large amount of disposable income.

That isn't inherently a good or bad effect; if that's how you think things ought to be, that's fine. If you think that the whole market should determine the value of an object instead of two or three competing people, then you have to take steps to regulate the market.

Herenicus

What if sales took place through a third-party intermediary designed to prevent speculation? For your consideration: Sellers signal their willingness to sell (at purchase price) using LANDSALE ON. Qualified buyers then place anoymous bids for the property, awarded by lot. These bids could have a price, themselves, and REALLY interested buyers stack the odds their favour by purchasing multiple bids. The cost of making bids could scale, giving small timers a shot whenever properties go on the market.

Sarapis

Jacen said:

Sarapis said:

Shops already in existence are only as expensive as you guys decide they'll be. The price on them will decline if you think they're worth less. And if they don't, then clearly people think that's what they're worth regardless of this change.

I don't think this is a wholly accurate statement. The price of many many things (most notably auction artefacts) are a reflection of their perceived value to a very small number of people with a very large amount of disposable income.

That isn't inherently a good or bad effect; if that's how you think things ought to be, that's fine. If you think that the whole market should determine the value of an object instead of two or three competing people, then you have to take steps to regulate the market.

The whole market is. What you describe is exactly how most luxury goods are priced by the market, and you guys treat shops as an extremely high-end (by Achaean standards) luxury good.

Sarapis

Herenicus said:

What if sales took place through a third-party intermediary designed to prevent speculation? For your consideration: Sellers signal their willingness to sell (at purchase price) using LANDSALE ON. Qualified buyers then place anoymous bids for the property, awarded by lot. These bids could have a price, themselves, and REALLY interested buyers stack the odds their favour by purchasing multiple bids. The cost of making bids could scale, giving small timers a shot whenever properties go on the market.

In that system, the shop prices eventually go to close to zero, since prices can never go up, only down.

Kyrra

Last few times I asked about buying shops in game, it's either 2-4k credits or 20-30 million gold. A lot of people refuse to accept less, and people are willing to pay those prices which enforces them.

As long as people are willing and able to pay those prices, they'll remain that high.

Herenicus

Sarapis said:

Herenicus said:

What if sales took place through a third-party intermediary designed to prevent speculation? For your consideration: Sellers signal their willingness to sell (at purchase price) using LANDSALE ON. Qualified buyers then place anoymous bids for the property, awarded by lot. These bids could have a price, themselves, and REALLY interested buyers stack the odds their favour by purchasing multiple bids. The cost of making bids could scale, giving small timers a shot whenever properties go on the market.

In that system, the shop prices eventually go to close to zero, since prices can never go up, only down.

Just pitching fruit at your canvas, but I figured shop prices would stay at a fixed purchase price established by the Garden with competitive bidding to give effect to buyer enthusiasm at time of transfer. If certain properties attract more or less bidding than others, that fixed purchase price could inch upwards or downwards to reflect popularity.

Aerek

A 1-2 shop limit per player would probably be easier. Jacen's right that the market is determined by a very small minority with very deep pockets. (Which is normal, but still a concern when the "luxury good" is also a public interest.) The number of shops available in Achaea is not small, but when a handful of individuals can own as many as they like and are willing to pay whatever it takes to get them, that's really what spikes prices. Everyone starts to charge more, basically hoping to cash in on one of those players.

Impose a limit on how many shops a player can own, and I'd wager that the number of available shops in Achaea far exceeds the number of Warren Buffets we have among us, and shops may start to be sold for more reasonable prices as the big spenders hit their allotted limit.

Edit: Granted, if anyone thinks the backlash for this change was harsh...

Bluef

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

Does this apply to Orders as well? Because according to what you write here, I own The Orchid in Delos because it was transferred to me to hold onto as the Order's representative even though it's been understood to be an "Order-owned" shop for as long as I've been playing Achaea.

Sarapis

Yes, it applies to Orders as well. Individuals own shops. It says so right on the shop when you do WARES. Whatever arrangement the individual owner chooses to make is up to them (and of course in player cities, the government can simply transfer shop ownership at will)  though of course I'd have no issue with an Order hunting the crap out of you for effectively starting to use it as your own instead.