Shop Change - Only owners can pay taxes

Verrucht

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Saeva

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?

Trilliana

I issued myself about this since I rent from someone who is marginally active...

Message #1263       Sent by Meletus

3/12/6:12 In regard to issue 72281, while unfortunate, it is an intended aspect of the changes to ensure that shops are not being held onto solely for legacy purposes and that all owners are active and contributing members, or that someone who wishes to be has the opportunity to do so!

Verrucht

If that's the case, couldn't it be something like if the owner is not ACTIVE the taxes cannot be paid?  That seems like it would fulfill that particular goal without making it harder on everyone else.

Morthif

Yea, I knew  this was going to be an issue.

Silvarien

Yeah, I am not digging this one. Shops by their nature are exceedingly expensive. The reality is, a lot of people might need to leave for a considerable time, and leave the shop with a trusted person. Losing something worth like 5000 credits will make literally anybody puke. It's not an artefact that just resets to you until you come back.

I hope @Sarapis and @Tecton might reconsider this.

Kyrra

Majority of the shops in Ashtan prepay taxes and the Chancellery forgives them every year. This was originally only meant to be offered as a service to House owned shops and to those whom rent a city-owned shop, but at the end of the day, Ashtan never has problems with people paying their taxes on time.

Every other city could set up similar policies and make use of the CITY FORGIVE SHOP TAXES command, but that would be exclude the Delos shops because it's Delos.

Silvarien

Kyrra said:

Majority of the shops in Ashtan prepay taxes and the Chancellery forgives them every year. This was originally only meant to be offered as a service to House owned shops and to those whom rent a city-owned shop, but at the end of the day, Ashtan never has problems with people paying their taxes on time.

Every other city could set up similar policies and make use of the CITY FORGIVE SHOP TAXES command, but that would be exclude the Delos shops because it's Delos.

@Kyrra : there's unforeseen complications that might arise, such as a long hospitalization or your sister dies and you have to take a 14 hour plane ride and then stay there for like two weeks. Some stuff, I don't think there's much attention on Achaea, if that attention can even be given.

I think the old system was better and more fair.

Sarapis

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Verrucht

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Which is why I suggesting making it so if the owner isn't ACTIVE that you cannot pay the taxes on a shop.  That's a perfectly valid workaround to that issue.

Sarapis

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

Silvarien

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

@Sarapis : I am just kinda afraid people won't have the incentive to own shops anymore. If this was set up like Maple Story, where there is one gigantic Free Market with room for everybody, then yes. But shops are very scarce and their cost is very high. This policy seems to make ownership a lot riskier than I think most people will be comfortable with. If funds are not an issue, I don't think somebody will be that uncomfortable buying lvl 3 gauntlets, but those reset and you'll never lose them. The shop, if it's gone, is probably gone, and that 2500 credits is gone too. And I mean, when I think of owning a shop that's a bit scary.

Sarapis

Verrucht said:

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Which is why I suggesting making it so if the owner isn't ACTIVE that you cannot pay the taxes on a shop.  That's a perfectly valid workaround to that issue.

There's no real difference between not logging in for 18 months (inactive) and logging in for 1 second a month during that period (active). In neither case do you play Achaea in any meaningful way any more.

Kyrra

Silvarien said:

Kyrra said:

Majority of the shops in Ashtan prepay taxes and the Chancellery forgives them every year. This was originally only meant to be offered as a service to House owned shops and to those whom rent a city-owned shop, but at the end of the day, Ashtan never has problems with people paying their taxes on time.

Every other city could set up similar policies and make use of the CITY FORGIVE SHOP TAXES command, but that would be exclude the Delos shops because it's Delos.

@Kyrra : there's unforeseen complications that might arise, such as a long hospitalization or your sister dies and you have to take a 14 hour plane ride and then stay there for like two weeks. Some stuff, I don't think there's much attention on Achaea, if that attention can even be given.

I think the old system was better and more fair.

Ashtan had policies to prepay taxes with the old system!

All I am saying is that there is still currently a method in place for those whom aren't the shop owner to taxes. It just requires dealing with the Chancellery in any city.

I don't care to get involved with OOC concerns of people's lives, it's not my business and I don't play Achaea for that reason. If people want to take the time to drop me a message and say that they'll be away for X amount of time, that's fine, but most people that care enough to do that also mail me the gold for that year or the next year's taxes so the Chancellery can take care of them.  

And not to sound callous, but all sorts of things happen for all sorts of reasons, to pull people away from Achaea. Achaea still keeps going regardless, and they should be catering to the active playerbase that wants to be involved instead of those whom stop playing for whatever reason. Cities have a limit on how many shops can exist, and I imagine that once Delos is full of shops, they may not create any more. That's up to the Garden. If shops become a limited commodity, they should be looked after responsibly. And while you can buy a shop in most cities, the shops ultimately belong to the city and can still be taken off you. I still recall a few years ago when Mhaldor reclaimed all their shops from non-citizens just because they could.

Verrucht

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Which is why I suggesting making it so if the owner isn't ACTIVE that you cannot pay the taxes on a shop.  That's a perfectly valid workaround to that issue.

There's no real difference between not logging in for 18 months (inactive) and logging in for 1 second a month during that period (active). In neither case do you play Achaea in any meaningful way any more.

Fair enough, I suppose. I just think that there should be some kind of other workaround so that cities and players can more easily rent out shops without going through the hassle of either having the Chancellor forgive taxes that are simply deposited in a city rather than paid directly or the renter mailing the gold to the owner to that they can pay taxes.  This just makes it more like work and less like a game, which I believe is counter to what is desired in Achaea. I could well be mistaken, however.

Ruth

City-owned shops can always be repossessed but it's the decision of the cities as to whether they want to repossess it. For most part, as long as shop taxes are paid and their chancellor shop guidelines are met, most don't really mind it.

@Kupo has been busy with life and couldn't quite log in because his laptop spoilt for a time and he didn't have the time and money to get it fixed. He logged in to his two shops being repossessed and he was very, very upset because he paid a shit ton of credits for them. Not only that, his things that were valuable in the stockrooms were taken. Luckily those were city-owned shops so I did manage to get his items saved and give him an opportunity to sell the shops to another to recoup some of the losses. Not sure if you can do this for a Delosian shop.

Silvarien

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Which is why I suggesting making it so if the owner isn't ACTIVE that you cannot pay the taxes on a shop.  That's a perfectly valid workaround to that issue.

There's no real difference between not logging in for 18 months (inactive) and logging in for 1 second a month during that period (active). In neither case do you play Achaea in any meaningful way any more.

@Sarapis : well, as I said to Kyrra, I mean things come up that one can't put aside. If you were counting on paying the taxes "tonight" and it's approaching the deadline, and then you get in a big car crash and go to the hospital for 3 weeks, that probably will lead to problems with a shop. If you're incapacitated you can't pay taxes. In 2007 I went to the hospital, I remember there were things on an internet site that I planned to "do tomorrow," I didn't end up doing them for like two weeks.

Autopay on taxes would be really nice. If you have 9000 gold per Achaean year, and you can pay a lump sum for a real-life year, that still does require involvement that predicts activity. But the problem then remains that they don't log in very often.

Sarapis

Silvarien said:

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

@Sarapis : I am just kinda afraid people won't have the incentive to own shops anymore. If this was set up like Maple Story, where there is one gigantic Free Market with room for everybody, then yes. But shops are very scarce and their cost is very high. This policy seems to make ownership a lot riskier than I think most people will be comfortable with. If funds are not an issue, I don't think somebody will be that uncomfortable buying lvl 3 gauntlets, but those reset and you'll never lose them. The shop, if it's gone, is probably gone, and that 2500 credits is gone too. And I mean, when I think of owning a shop that's a bit scary.

Yep, shop prices will likely come down some. They're dictated 100% by you guys in any case, and you'll all figure out what you think a shop is worth under whatever ruleset they operate under. 

Verrucht

Ruth said:

City-owned shops can always be repossessed but it's the decision of the cities as to whether they want to repossess it. For most part, as long as shop taxes are paid and their chancellor shop guidelines are met, most don't really mind it.

Actually, per an issue reply that I got back at one point (I don't have it now, and might not get the same ruling) all shops are technically city owned and all that is guaranteed by the "sale" of a shop from one player to another (except maybe in Delos) is the right to lease the shop for as long as the city permits.

Edit: That might have been what you were saying. Re-reading it I got a different read. Apologies if I just restated your point.

Jules

I wonder if this will drive down the price of actually owning a shop by a huge amount (both because shops will actually be for sale and because people will know they won't survive any serious dormancy).  Then again, we're talking about Achaeans, who consistently prove their willingness to open their pocketbooks wider than anyone in IRE.  Although really, if you've had an absentee landlord, that's probably been a pretty sweetheart deal.  And I can think of some shops that I could almost swear have been owned by the same names since around 2004 (and the people were dormant then).  I'm not a shopkeeper though, and it sounds like taxes have to be paid really frequently, so that even a fairly short absence might be a problem?  I wouldn't be sad to see the so-called "house" shop (that apparently never existed) go away either.  It's just one more thing that has to be managed, whether the people in the org actually want to manage it or not (and one more shop that is semi-permanently off the market). 

Verrucht

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

Definitely not trying to be rude or confrontational, but I'm relatively certain that every city in Achaea recognises that there are both House shops and Order shops. Whether or not this is an intended thing or a recognised thing on the side of the administration does not change that Achaea itself does have House shops, etc.

Saeva

Technicalities... but sure, just ignore it because there's not a mechanic for it.

Sarapis

Actually, per an issue reply that I got back at one point (I don't have it now, and might not get the same ruling) all shops are technically city owned and all that is guaranteed by the "sale" of a shop from one player to another (except maybe in Delos) is the right to lease the shop for as long as the city permits.

Edit: That might have been what you were saying. Re-reading it I got a different read. Apologies if I just restated your point.

Put it this way: Just like in the real world, individuals own shops, but governments can repossess them at will. How long a government that makes a habit of doing that will last is another story....

Sarapis

Silvarien said:

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

Sarapis said:

Verrucht said:

I just kind of wonder if all consideration was given in regards to people taking time off from Achaea for personal reasons, taking time off for school and cities and people renting out their owned shops.  While I realise there are potential workarounds for all these things, the current system was in no way broken or malfunctioning, and I'm curious as to why this was determined to be a needed change or an improvement to the current system.

Oh, the current system was unquestionably broken. We have things like shopowners who haven't logged in for a year and a half. That's real time, not Achaean time. People who don't play Achaea regularly have no business monopolizing ownership on limited things like shops.

Which is why I suggesting making it so if the owner isn't ACTIVE that you cannot pay the taxes on a shop.  That's a perfectly valid workaround to that issue.

There's no real difference between not logging in for 18 months (inactive) and logging in for 1 second a month during that period (active). In neither case do you play Achaea in any meaningful way any more.

@Sarapis : well, as I said to Kyrra, I mean things come up that one can't put aside. If you were counting on paying the taxes "tonight" and it's approaching the deadline, and then you get in a big car crash and go to the hospital for 3 weeks, that probably will lead to problems with a shop. If you're incapacitated you can't pay taxes. In 2007 I went to the hospital, I remember there were things on an internet site that I planned to "do tomorrow," I didn't end up doing them for like two weeks.

Yeah, that's a fair point, but as others have pointed out, city governments have the option to simply not enforce the taxation laws. It's in the players' hands in terms of enforcement.

Siduri

I actually admit I am thrilled by this change.
No offense, but I've been ogling the Delos shops for quite a while, wondering if one of the dormant owners will one day pop to put its empty shop for sale.

Silas

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

This is an absurd stance. Houses pay credits for shops that House members manage for them. Not recognising that mechanically doesn't mean it's not true.

Sarapis

Siduri said:

I actually admit I am thrilled by this change.
No offense, but I've been ogling the Delos shops for quite a while, wondering if one of the dormant owners will one day pop to put its empty shop for sale.

You are a textbook case of why we made the change! We want active players owning shops, not people who don't play any more. 

One of Achaea's biggest problems is calcification - people who own shops forever without really playing, people who hog leadership positions forever without actually really doing anything, and so on. These are limited resources that are one of the potential 'rewards' or aspirational reasons to play the game, and it sucks to watch people hold onto them even though they're not putting any effort into managing those shops (or political positions, etc). 

Halos

I remember in the early years of Targossas @Kaiu used to run around secretly paying people's shop taxes out of the kindness of her heart. I thought it was a bug. It was really sweet of her, but it confused me so much until I caught her doing it and asked her to stop paying mine.

I think in Targossas you're allowed maybe three ig years of leeway on taxes before your shop is repossessed. That's about month and a half.

Skye

Silas said:

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

I'm also mildly confused about why that was set into motion. For me it was not such a big deal, but it will be for numerous people including possibly problematic for house shops if for any reason a shop owner for a house shop needs to take a break. Why make it so you have to  transfer the whole thing when it worked the way it was?T

There's no such thing, and has never been any such thing, as a House shop. Individuals own shops, not Houses. If an individual chooses to run that shop for the benefit of a House for awhile, that's that person's choice, but it's never the House's property.

This is an absurd stance. Houses pay credits for shops that House members manage for them. Not recognising that mechanically doesn't mean it's not true.

^^

As I see it, it's really a matter of technicality. Org-shops are property of the Org by virtue of the fact that the Org pays for lease. On the other hand, the name/signature on the deed (so to speak) will always be the current Order/House leader. As the org leadership changes, similarly the deed/lease will transfer to the current House/Order Head.

So 'technically' the shop is owned by Prince Edward of Andalasia at least in name. With the exception of the Delosian shops, should Prince Edward decide to give a massive fuck you to the city and run off to New York or something, the city still retains the power to repossess and re-instate the appropriate new HL as the lease holder.



Edit: having said that, changes to shop policies to make retail properties more available are generally welcome in some form or another. Every crafter/tradeskill user has at one point or another dreamed of leasing/owning a place. The thing is, I feel whatever changes are being put into place now will never really address the demand appropriately.

I've previously made numerous remarks as to how unprofitable crafting skills are in conjunction with shop leases. They are, ultimately, incredible vanity investments that come at great expenditure on the player's part. It's a daunting challenge to keep up or fill the shoes of some of our greater designing players once they decide to fold and bow out of the game.

Time and again we've requested for some way to obtain more modest sales-spaces. The little shopping carts were great in theory but so clumsily put together like an indulgent afterthought, I wonder how many actually managed to make proper use of them at all.

Rispok

Legacy shops aren't actually an issue. The owner can only shopally certain people. If that 'legacy' goes dormant, the shop will invariably go into repossession from the associated city.

Allow shop allies to pay taxes, or allow taxes to be paid for maybe 5 IG years in advance.

Also admit, as Silas said, that there really are org shops. They are a thing, and could use mechanical reinforcement.

Halos

Do shopowners actually pay taxes in Delos? I always thought one of the benefits of having a Delosian shop was, in addition to no arbitrary chancellery policies or city laws, no real taxes.