Shop Change - Only owners can pay taxes

Kresslack

From the standpoint of someone who's been trying to secure a shop for literal years, I'm ok with this change. If you're not active enough to actually manage the shop, you probably don't need it. A lot of people seem to have shops just for storage instead of selling worthwhile wares in any case.

Bluef

Sarapis said:

Yes, it applies to Orders as well. Individuals own shops. It says so right on the shop when you do WARES. Whatever arrangement the individual owner chooses to make is up to them (and of course in player cities, the government can simply transfer shop ownership at will)  though of course I'd have no issue with an Order hunting the crap out of you for effectively starting to use it as your own instead. 

Wait, what? You just said I own the shop. Now you're saying that the Order can hunt me until I'm level 1 if I don't use it the way they want? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Edit: By the way, I'm not saying I want to do anything with the shop. I just don't understand how the RP comes into play if there is this ownership by an individual being mandated.

Why can't House and Orders simply be given a way to own property? I don't mean the coding involved, I mean what's the thought process behind it (is it simply limiting shops to individuals so they can be re-auctioned later)?

Nim

Allowing orgs to own shops might be a good enhancement. That was my takeaway from that particular part of the discussion, anyhow. That has some problems where a house might never lose a shop, but it also resolves that since by definition the shop would be in the hands of the house's active members anyway, so I'm not sure it counts as a problem.

Razzlo

Kresslack said:

From the standpoint of someone who's been trying to secure a shop for literal years, I'm ok with this change. If you're not active enough to actually manage the shop, you probably don't need it. A lot of people seem to have shops just for storage instead of selling worthwhile wares in any case.

Indeed, as one of the 'have nots' I must entirely support the rise of us proletariats against the bourgeoisie!

Take their money and land and spread it through our ranks!  

Kresslack

Razzlo said:

Kresslack said:

From the standpoint of someone who's been trying to secure a shop for literal years, I'm ok with this change. If you're not active enough to actually manage the shop, you probably don't need it. A lot of people seem to have shops just for storage instead of selling worthwhile wares in any case.

Indeed, as one of the 'have nots' I must entirely support the rise of us proletariats against the bourgeoisie!

Take their money and land and spread it through our ranks!  

Simmer down, son, not trying to incite class warfare in Achaea. I'll gladly pay the appropriate amount for rights to own and operate a shop, but for a very long time most shops never change hands, despite not offering wares and the listed owner not being around in ages. I just want the opportunity to acquire one.

Greys

@Kresslack Join Targossas. Got plenty of shops open especially close to the harbour.

Kresslack

Greys said:

@Kresslack Join Targossas. Got plenty of shops open especially close to the harbour.

First @Aurora tries to bribe me with baked goods, and now this. Begone, foul spirit!

Bloody tempting though...

Siduri

Kresslack said:

Greys said:

@Kresslack Join Targossas. Got plenty of shops open especially close to the harbour.

First @Aurora tries to bribe me with baked goods, and now this. Begone, foul spirit!

Bloody tempting though...

We're always looking for pirate hunters, too *wink wink, nudge nudge*

Jules

So honestly, I am a bit worried that there are enough batshit insane Achaeans to keep prices fairly obscene, and I really do fall on my usual "have more respect for your own pocketbooks, you silly Achaeans" side of things if that happens.  Because even if prices fall drastically (which they really, really should if not for exceptionally crazy people), make no mistake, IRE is going to be making a lot more money on the turnover of those shops than they have been.  And that's great, because the way things were seems like it was actually too good of a deal for players.  But if the prices *don't* go down, and I mean go down a LOT, yeah, you would be shop owners are definitely getting pocketbook raped. 

"Owning" a shop was already something of a misnomer, and it's just become more so.  In absolutely technical terms, it's true that this change is not unlike paying taxes (and the consequences of not paying them) in the real world, but we don't take long breaks from the real world.  And if we can't personally manage our properties, there is an animal called a power of attorney.  There are property managers... Anyway, what you have when you "buy" a shop in Achaea is already pretty much a lease without a specified end date.  I think things would work out best for people who want a chance to have a shop if all shops in Achaea came up for lease renewal at at certain time every so often (people who actually manage shops would do the best job of picking a reasonable lease period), and everyone got to bid on having the shop for the next lease period.  I also liked the idea of limiting the number of shops a person can own that Melodie brought up. 

Razzlo

Kresslack said:

Razzlo said:

Kresslack said:

From the standpoint of someone who's been trying to secure a shop for literal years, I'm ok with this change. If you're not active enough to actually manage the shop, you probably don't need it. A lot of people seem to have shops just for storage instead of selling worthwhile wares in any case.

Indeed, as one of the 'have nots' I must entirely support the rise of us proletariats against the bourgeoisie!

Take their money and land and spread it through our ranks!  

Simmer down, son, not trying to incite class warfare in Achaea. I'll gladly pay the appropriate amount for rights to own and operate a shop, but for a very long time most shops never change hands, despite not offering wares and the listed owner not being around in ages. I just want the opportunity to acquire one.

Awwww

Achilles

just add a billpay type option that links the shop owner bankaccounts with the shop that draws on the 1st of Sarapin.  SHOP TAXES DELOS AUTO PAY ON

Just make sure you have lots of extra funds in that linked account if you will be gone for a long time and pray that city doesn't sink to the bottom of the ocean (RIP SHALLAM).  The one risk I suppose is some unscrupulous chancellor setting your taxes to some ungodly sum when you are dormant and embezzle all your gold but then again a city could just seize your shop if it wanted anyways.

Kayeil

Having extremely trustworthy friends goes a long way. With Laila busy in her real life, Skarash makes sure her shops are well taken care of and are always open to be transferred back to her when she is ready to come back full time. In the meantime, the shops are used and well stocked and the taxes are kept paid. I take care of Halo's, I keep it stocked, and the taxes are paid way in advance. That one is still in his name, though. Plus I can poke him awake anytime I need to. So if you own a shop but you have to go away for a while yet you know you'll be coming back full time, then making an arrangement with a trustworthy friend is not a bad idea.

Sarapis

Achilles said:

just add a billpay type option that links the shop owner bankaccounts with the shop that draws on the 1st of Sarapin.  SHOP TAXES DELOS AUTO PAY ON

Just make sure you have lots of extra funds in that linked account if you will be gone for a long time and pray that city doesn't sink to the bottom of the ocean (RIP SHALLAM).  The one risk I suppose is some unscrupulous chancellor setting your taxes to some ungodly sum when you are dormant and embezzle all your gold but then again a city could just seize your shop if it wanted anyways.

That kind of misses the entire point of this...

Kyrra

Kayeil said:

Having extremely trustworthy friends goes a long way. With Laila busy in her real life, Skarash makes sure her shops are well taken care of and are always open to be transferred back to her when she is ready to come back full time. In the meantime, the shops are used and well stocked and the taxes are kept paid. I take care of Halo's, I keep it stocked, and the taxes are paid way in advance. That one is still in his name, though. Plus I can poke him awake anytime I need to. So if you own a shop but you have to go away for a while yet you know you'll be coming back full time, then making an arrangement with a trustworthy friend is not a bad idea.

Skarash doesn't own Laila's shop. Laila owns Laila's shop. If the shop gets transferred to Skarash for any reason, it becomes Skarash's shop and he can do whatever he wants with it.

Kayeil

Kyrra said:

Kayeil said:

Having extremely trustworthy friends goes a long way. With Laila busy in her real life, Skarash makes sure her shops are well taken care of and are always open to be transferred back to her when she is ready to come back full time. In the meantime, the shops are used and well stocked and the taxes are kept paid. I take care of Halo's, I keep it stocked, and the taxes are paid way in advance. That one is still in his name, though. Plus I can poke him awake anytime I need to. So if you own a shop but you have to go away for a while yet you know you'll be coming back full time, then making an arrangement with a trustworthy friend is not a bad idea.

Skarash doesn't own Laila's shop. Laila owns Laila's shop. If the shop gets transferred to Skarash for any reason, it becomes Skarash's shop and he can do whatever he wants with it.

He "owns" one of her shops, considering Lord Sarapis says shops are not Org owned, until she returns, in which case he'll give it back. I'm aware of the other one.

Kyrra

Kayeil said:

Kyrra said:

Kayeil said:

Having extremely trustworthy friends goes a long way. With Laila busy in her real life, Skarash makes sure her shops are well taken care of and are always open to be transferred back to her when she is ready to come back full time. In the meantime, the shops are used and well stocked and the taxes are kept paid. I take care of Halo's, I keep it stocked, and the taxes are paid way in advance. That one is still in his name, though. Plus I can poke him awake anytime I need to. So if you own a shop but you have to go away for a while yet you know you'll be coming back full time, then making an arrangement with a trustworthy friend is not a bad idea.

Skarash doesn't own Laila's shop. Laila owns Laila's shop. If the shop gets transferred to Skarash for any reason, it becomes Skarash's shop and he can do whatever he wants with it.

He "owns" one of her shops, considering Lord Sarapis says shops are not Org owned, until she returns, in which case he'll give it back. I'm aware of the other one.

That shop in question can be passed around to anyone in Pandora's Order that wants to run it. I thought you were referring to her other that she rents out. Nevermind!

I've always viewed organisation owned shops as simply that. They belong to an organisation and frequently change hands, they are stocked and managed mostly by members of that organisation, and the proceeds from those shops usually goes into the organisation's accounts. I don't dispute that they're even in the hands of a single person but it's pretty much a collective given by the playerbase to acknowledge that some shops are purchased for use by an organisation, rather than an individual for their own personal profits. There's nothing really stopping people from just selling off those shops though, like in the case where Isis sold one of the Ashura's house shops to the Nerai on her own whims. I don't recall if she pocketed that gold or not though.

Aerek

Though mechanically owned by one person, as cities can repossess and distribute shops at will, it's easy for organizations to enter into a contract with the city that states the org does, in fact, own that shop. If the technical owner does "go rogue", the city can just repossess it and give it back to a different org member. The only danger is if your organization "owns" a shop outside a city, such as Delos/Crystal Leaf/Minia.

Jules

All of this is why the concept of "owning" a shop is a bit misleading, and also why the number of shops being managed this way probably deserves a hard look from admin.  If the number is at all significant, it's not really that different than anyone else having sweetheart deals with an absentee landlord, and it's completely removing these shops from the market.  A small number of these shops can be useful to the overall org as a place to provide supplies, but really, one shop per city is all that's needed for that.   

Sarapis

Yeah, we'll probably find a way to make it more difficult/expensive for cities to do that, though I'm unsure what off-hand.

Verrucht

Jules said:

All of this is why the concept of "owning" a shop is a bit misleading, and also why the number of shops being managed this way probably deserves a hard look from admin.  If the number is at all significant, it's not really that different than anyone else having sweetheart deals with an absentee landlord, and it's completely removing these shops from the market.  A small number of these shops can be useful to the overall org as a place to provide supplies, but really, one shop per city is all that's needed for that.   

In Cyrene, I'm pretty sure orgs only have one shop apiece. I can think of a few Orders and then each House of Cyrene plus the Merchants that "own" a shop in Cyrene.  The city itself manages two shops (which is important for continued monetary solvency, even if we are rich, and keep stocks of sigils, etc for defenders) and rents out three.

While some people might not like the concept of the city renting out shops and thus removing them from the market for ownership by others, I think it's pretty spectacular, since it lets people run shops who could never afford to buy one due to the current market cost for a shop.

Halos

Sarapis said:

Yeah, we'll probably find a way to make it more difficult/expensive for cities to do that, though I'm unsure what off-hand.

Wait, I'm confused. Have there been cases where cities have abused the ability to repossess shops from people? Why would we need to make it more difficult for cities to recover shops from lawbreakers and non-taxpayers? I thought we were talking about the drawbacks of owning a shop in Delos with this change, not owning shops in a city.

Achimrst

Sarapis said:

Yeah, we'll probably find a way to make it more difficult/expensive for cities to do that, though I'm unsure what off-hand.

Make them pay court fees, hire a lawyer, hire a judge, hire a locksmith, hire a totemer, hire an appeals judge and possibly a second attorney, get a search warrant through the judge in which they have to hire him again, and then a license to seize the property still residing in the shop, than finally make them get a signed notarized letter mailed to the current owner, make them wait a year for response, when they get no response they can take retake ownership of the shop and all property within.

Jules

Verrucht said:

Jules said:

All of this is why the concept of "owning" a shop is a bit misleading, and also why the number of shops being managed this way probably deserves a hard look from admin.  If the number is at all significant, it's not really that different than anyone else having sweetheart deals with an absentee landlord, and it's completely removing these shops from the market.  A small number of these shops can be useful to the overall org as a place to provide supplies, but really, one shop per city is all that's needed for that.   

In Cyrene, I'm pretty sure orgs only have one shop apiece. I can think of a few Orders and then each House of Cyrene plus the Merchants that "own" a shop in Cyrene.  The city itself manages two shops (which is important for continued monetary solvency, even if we are rich, and keep stocks of sigils, etc for defenders) and rents out three.

While some people might not like the concept of the city renting out shops and thus removing them from the market for ownership by others, I think it's pretty spectacular, since it lets people run shops who could never afford to buy one due to the current market cost for a shop.

How many shops is that that are pretty much permanently off the open market though?  I mean, total... and how many shops does Cyrene have?  And with each of those cases, yeah, it's a sweetheart deal for someone, but that's the problem.  It means you have to be "dialed in" (i.e. well-connected) and that you're probably getting the use of the shop for a steal.  The prices people are paying for shops (or really the use of a shop) when they're actually available is completely out of control, but at the same time, some people are getting to pretty much be shop owners for almost nothing.  It's crazy.   

Halos

Cities typically have a few dozen player shops. Targossas has 30, for instance. 5 are given to Targs orgs to run. 1/6 being "off the market" isn't a lot. Targ has had at least 2 empty shops up for rent since it was founded.

Edit: I wouldn't disparage connections if I were you. This is Achaea, a multiplayer game. If you aren't trying to become "dialed in" in Achaea, you're probably a rogue, in which case, you're intentionally (or unintentionally) playing Achaea in hard mode.

Jules

Connections are fine, and hopefully people make them, but I think it's definitely an inappropriate vehicle for managing this high value good (shops) for the reasons I mentioned.  Also, Targ has open shops because it's not very desirable real estate yet - it's a very militant city that a lot of people are enemied to and it has a small native population. 

Aerek

I feel like we're manufacturing problems, now. I was referring to cities' ability and freedom to manage their own shops as a good thing, not a detriment to the system. If an org wants to own a shop, the mechanics don't support that, but cities can ensure that's what's really happening. If a shopowner is dormant and can't pay taxes, but the renter is maintaining the shop well, the mechanics don't support that, but city can work out an arrangement with the renter and forgive the taxes. If the city wants to "own" all the shops on its turf and just rent them out to buyers, thereby completely eliminating the high cost of "buying" a shop to prospective shopkeepers, they can do that too.

I felt this change was primarily aimed at the Delos/out-of-city shops that have no player oversight, because there are shops out there languishing under dormant owners that aren't available to the public at all. Cities, on the other hand, have a vested interest in keeping their shops active, and have the ability to use objective judgement and work out a system that works best for them and their citizens.

Jules

Going by Sarapis' posts, it's not just Delos, but we'll see what ends up happening. 

Verrucht

Jules said:

Verrucht said:

Jules said:

All of this is why the concept of "owning" a shop is a bit misleading, and also why the number of shops being managed this way probably deserves a hard look from admin.  If the number is at all significant, it's not really that different than anyone else having sweetheart deals with an absentee landlord, and it's completely removing these shops from the market.  A small number of these shops can be useful to the overall org as a place to provide supplies, but really, one shop per city is all that's needed for that.   

In Cyrene, I'm pretty sure orgs only have one shop apiece. I can think of a few Orders and then each House of Cyrene plus the Merchants that "own" a shop in Cyrene.  The city itself manages two shops (which is important for continued monetary solvency, even if we are rich, and keep stocks of sigils, etc for defenders) and rents out three.

While some people might not like the concept of the city renting out shops and thus removing them from the market for ownership by others, I think it's pretty spectacular, since it lets people run shops who could never afford to buy one due to the current market cost for a shop.

How many shops is that that are pretty much permanently off the open market though?  I mean, total... and how many shops does Cyrene have?  And with each of those cases, yeah, it's a sweetheart deal for someone, but that's the problem.  It means you have to be "dialed in" (i.e. well-connected) and that you're probably getting the use of the shop for a steal.  The prices people are paying for shops (or really the use of a shop) when they're actually available is completely out of control, but at the same time, some people are getting to pretty much be shop owners for almost nothing.  It's crazy.   

I don't really know what you mean. It's not a sweetheart deal. People tell the Chancellor they want to rent a shop and when one becomes available, they get to rent it. Priority given to citizens over non-citizens and people who already own a shop cannot apply.  Where's the problem here?

Edit: Cyrene has 30 shops. 7 are used by Houses, the Order of Thurisaz and Cyrene (we have 3 not 2, my b) and 3 are rented out for 30k/year.  That means 2/3 of the shops are "player owned".

Caladbolg

I only owned a shop for a short time, Antidas went Dormant with finals and studying and Dark Souls so I took over his shop (actually owned it). (Which is what this is pushing us to do I believe anyways)

Now the problem with owning a city shop I quickly found out was that. EVERYONES ENEMIED TO TARG. those who shop in targ are actually targ citizens and the city basically sells everything but clothing for the army alot cheaper (makes sense supplying the army) Personally I found that my shop was only making money because I was telling people to "HURRY FOLLOW ME" Rushing them into my shop closing the door and telling them to buy something or i'd hurt them.

Of course things are a little different now that cures/weapons/venoms isn't a class ability but I think the major problem with shops in general that I faced was.. everything I could have made a profit on selling in my shop could A. Be bought cheaper by the city (because it generates gold for the city) or B. Finding someone on Market. which made my client base people who were to afraid to talk to other people. or the city not being able to keep up with demands.


basically I spent a crap ton on sigils/stuff and wasn't even making a profit by the time taxes came do...


As far as the having a delosian shop and needing to take a leave of absence my idea is basically to have an admin power to prepay the taxes on a shop if someone issues me and does it while asking for the gold to be removed directly from inventory or something.
The reason being Admins can monitor it this way so it's not constantly abused but for serious needs to leave and such your still covered.

On the other hand i'd just like to add in that my guess is just about everyone here has a smart phone, there's an app for your smart phone that you can log into and pay your shop taxes if you end up having to leave and have no laptop or something.

Greys

@Caladbolg Heh, the funny thing is the shop I run in Shornwall, I sell things there cheaper than what I sell on market. But yeah its rough as we have the smallest population city and with the latest issue we are almost as reclusive as Mhaldor in who can visit.