Lowering the Barriers to Group PvP

Herenicus

      

Santar

Herenicus is an ass hat. The only reason he thinks xp-loss is broken is because he is terrible at the game and dies like a noob. The only thing he's done here is whine about xp loss. Xp loss is fine. 

Herenicus

Can confirm. Santar knows I am an ass hat because he is one. He is kind and generous with his opinions. 

Jules

The biggest conflict of interest hasn't been discussed much, and that is that the people closest to the top of the PK heap also hate bashing, and much prefer it if they can rely on getting and/or recouping a goodly chunk of their XP through others.  That said, some of the people who are all too happy to give their bashing away to others probably don't realize that being in a Right to Bash state might not be in their interest.  Anyway, who's more "entitled" again? 

Sarathai

Jules said:

The biggest conflict of interest hasn't been discussed much, and that is that the people closest to the top of the PK heap also hate bashing... 

Isn't Seragorn currently at the top of the combat rankings and a Mark? Or did you have somebody in particular that you were thinking of?

Jules

No, I don't have a particular person in mind, but XP "lost" through PK is not actually lost - although as I mentioned, it's possible that some portion of it is truly lost.  Overall though, a PvP death just transfers XP, and all XP in Achaea is currently generated from PvE.  So PvP can only transfer PvE XP (and possibly destroy some of it), meaning that if you're someone who can get a net gain in the grand scheme of how your raids and skirmishes and duels play out, you're ahead, and get to cut down on your own bashing.  Maybe even a good chunk ahead if you're quite good and part of a dominant organization.  

Nizana

I saw a note and just wanted to toss this in, Level 81, a death = 4-5% xp. It's not devastatingly massive. Pre-80 loss was around 15%, though, so there is that.

Also, question. Sanctioned Raid = no XP loss for defenders? If so, then while we argue, we can use that for breaking people into the group pvp scene.

Also, an old character I had, she was in Mhaldor. Mhaldor hosted team skirmishes in the arena for people interested in combat (was semi-mandatory) and it was fun and neat. That's one way to lower the barrier, showing lowbies how they can assist in defensive combat and such (when I was with Mhaldor, they had me spam-web. That was my job. I did it well)

If anyone wants to be solid at 1v1 PvP, they definitely need to invest a lot of time into it. If they want to be an aggressor, they should be prepared to lose something for doing it. If they want to join group pvp, as this post seems to suggest is the main point, the above might help.

Jovolo

Did someone say they lose 1/5 of a level if they die at level 80? Wut?

Jovolo

@Jules not all XP is generated from PvE, it's just one of the more boring ways of doing so 

Klendathu

It might just be an urban myth, but wasn't there someone who got to dragon purely through questing?

I still firmly believe the barrier to entry to PvP is the steep learning curve, both in actual game mechanics, and in attitude, not in some transient number of experience points.

Nim

Jovolo said:

Did someone say they lose 1/5 of a level if they die at level 80? Wut?

Oh. Sorry, twentieth. Five percent.

Kyrra

Klendathu said:

It might just be an urban myth, but wasn't there someone who got to dragon purely through questing?

I still firmly believe the barrier to entry to PvP is the steep learning curve, both in actual game mechanics, and in attitude, not in some transient number of experience points.

Pretty sure that was Bambi. 

Merador

Kyrra said:

Klendathu said:

It might just be an urban myth, but wasn't there someone who got to dragon purely through questing?

I still firmly believe the barrier to entry to PvP is the steep learning curve, both in actual game mechanics, and in attitude, not in some transient number of experience points.

Pretty sure that was Bambi. 

She's got 355k denizen kills, but 0 player kills. I think she was a pacifist for PVP not PVE.

Mishgul

Klendathu said:

It might just be an urban myth, but wasn't there someone who got to dragon purely through questing?

I still firmly believe the barrier to entry to PvP is the steep learning curve, both in actual game mechanics, and in attitude, not in some transient number of experience points.

Peladoris got close. He is level 92 without a single denizen kill.

I miss Peladoris.

Bluef

Mishgul said:

Klendathu said:

It might just be an urban myth, but wasn't there someone who got to dragon purely through questing?

I still firmly believe the barrier to entry to PvP is the steep learning curve, both in actual game mechanics, and in attitude, not in some transient number of experience points.

Peladoris got close. He is level 92 without a single denizen kill.

I miss Peladoris.

That is awesome. 

Atalkez

I personally like my sub-80 loop. Rarely bash, and have stayed 75-79 for nearly a year of constant PvP. It is fun fighting people 30 levels higher. Makes you feel accomplished even if it is very subjective. Not everyone is like me though I guess.

Kitiara

Atalkez said:

I personally like my sub-80 loop. Rarely bash, and have stayed 75-79 for nearly a year of constant PvP. It is fun fighting people 30 levels higher. Makes you feel accomplished even if it is very subjective. Not everyone is like me though I guess.

That about sums up my life. I enjoy pvp however stuck in the mid 70s because if it.  

Jules

Jovolo said:

@Jules not all XP is generated from PvE, it's just one of the more boring ways of doing so 

Not sure if you mean questing or what.  I'm counting questing as PvE because you're still using NPCs/the game itself for your XP gain - the bulk of PvE XP in the game is almost certainly from bashing rather than questing, but I would consider them part of the same pool. 

The most central thing to keep in mind is that PvP as it works now doesn't create its own XP like PvE can.  It just transfers one person's PvE XP from one person to another.

Jovolo

Uhh, why would you consider bashing the same as questing? They're completely different, you just "interact" with denizens in order to achieve that.

Jacen

Is questing remotely as lucrative as bashing in terms of xp gain?

Herenicus

Jules said:

Jovolo said:

@Jules not all XP is generated from PvE, it's just one of the more boring ways of doing so 

Not sure if you mean questing or what.  I'm counting questing as PvE because you're still using NPCs/the game itself for your XP gain - the bulk of PvE XP in the game is almost certainly from bashing rather than questing, but I would consider them part of the same pool. 

The most central thing to keep in mind is that PvP as it works now doesn't create its own XP like PvE can.  It just transfers one person's PvE XP from one person to another.

Oh, do be gentle with your sensationalist implications, Jules, lest Silas catch a case of vaypours absent his fainting couch or smelling salts.

Jovolo

Jacen said:

Is questing remotely as lucrative as bashing in terms of xp gain?

No, because they're different.

Caladbolg

Silas said:

Rolling your eyes and wandering off in boredom is fine. You don't have to engage with other people who want to impose on your good times. I do the same nowadays, but it's not because of XP - I just have no interest in it.

That's fine, and is a perfectly valid way to play Achaea. You have no interest in something, so you don't get involved in it.

The entitled whiners are the ones who want to get involved but only in a way where they cannot lose anything, because they're bashing to dragon.

We live in a city that keeps trying to inforce things such as shrine wars, essence bashing, Defending, Attacking, Arena training and such, has been for awhile.

Except Silas is immune to all this for some odd reason. Which is pretty bad when the Dawnlord giving the speech about everyone having to put more effort into this and that then has to bring up the fact that Silas doesn't.

Especially when the Dawnlord is handing down the word of the Divine them selfs.

But yes everyone besides you is forced (in Targossas anyways) to defend against these people or log out basically.

Antidas

Caladbolg said:

Silas said:

Rolling your eyes and wandering off in boredom is fine. You don't have to engage with other people who want to impose on your good times. I do the same nowadays, but it's not because of XP - I just have no interest in it.

That's fine, and is a perfectly valid way to play Achaea. You have no interest in something, so you don't get involved in it.

The entitled whiners are the ones who want to get involved but only in a way where they cannot lose anything, because they're bashing to dragon.

We live in a city that keeps trying to inforce things such as shrine wars, essence bashing, Defending, Attacking, Arena training and such, has been for awhile.

Except Silas is immune to all this for some odd reason. Which is pretty bad when the Dawnlord giving the speech about everyone having to put more effort into this and that then has to bring up the fact that Silas doesn't.

Especially when the Dawnlord is handing down the word of the Divine them selfs.

But yes everyone besides you is forced (in Targossas anyways) to defend against these people or log out basically.

To be fair, its only enforced from an IC perspective - there are plenty of people who never defend, and those of us in leadership just conveniently "overlook" that fact because, from an OOC perspective, forcing people to do something they don't enjoy is stupid. @Kaiu is a good example of this - I guarantee she's never gotten in trouble for not participating in combat, and I honestly can't think of a single time she -has- participated. She also doesn't usually log out during raids, afaik. I see her at rally point spamming attacks on Garis during raid defenses all the time to give him kai.

tl;dr so long as those people who chose not to participate contribute to the city in some other way, there's no issue. I'm pretty sure @Silas falls into this category.

Santar

@Silas was one of the most active and involved contributors to the city when he was Dawnlord. Pretty laughable to say otherwise. 

He bashed. He raided. He handled all politics.  He was a fore-front participator in the vast majority of everything that happened in the city.

Caladbolg

Antidas said:

Caladbolg said:

Silas said:

Rolling your eyes and wandering off in boredom is fine. You don't have to engage with other people who want to impose on your good times. I do the same nowadays, but it's not because of XP - I just have no interest in it.

That's fine, and is a perfectly valid way to play Achaea. You have no interest in something, so you don't get involved in it.

The entitled whiners are the ones who want to get involved but only in a way where they cannot lose anything, because they're bashing to dragon.

We live in a city that keeps trying to inforce things such as shrine wars, essence bashing, Defending, Attacking, Arena training and such, has been for awhile.

Except Silas is immune to all this for some odd reason. Which is pretty bad when the Dawnlord giving the speech about everyone having to put more effort into this and that then has to bring up the fact that Silas doesn't.

Especially when the Dawnlord is handing down the word of the Divine them selfs.

But yes everyone besides you is forced (in Targossas anyways) to defend against these people or log out basically.

To be fair, its only enforced from an IC perspective - there are plenty of people who never defend, and those of us in leadership just conveniently "overlook" that fact because, from an OOC perspective, forcing people to do something they don't enjoy is stupid. @Kaiu is a good example of this - I guarantee she's never gotten in trouble for not participating in combat, and I honestly can't think of a single time she -has- participated. She also doesn't usually log out during raids, afaik. I see her at rally point spamming attacks on Garis during raid defenses all the time to give him kai.

tl;dr so long as those people who chose not to participate contribute to the city in some other way, there's no issue. I'm pretty sure @Silas falls into this category.

Well shit, someone should have told me it was just an ic thing, I'd quit doing it along time ago

Trey

Santar said:

@Silas was one of the most active and involved contributors to the city when he was Dawnlord. Pretty laughable to say otherwise. 

He bashed. He raided. He handled all politics.  He was a fore-front participator in the vast majority of everything that happened in the city.

This is also discounting what I consider to be Shallam's finest era under the @Silas - @Rho power couple. 

Bluef

While people are suggesting that what you may have done years ago in Achaea should count for what you don't do today, I'd like to throw my name in the hat for Hashani of the Year. 

Silas

To my knowledge, nobody has been punished in Targossas for not defending, or for not doing anything else. The recognition from the leaders is that this is a game, and people should be free to do what they find enjoyable.

Plus, this is My city. Of course I'm immune to any negative consequences for My actions. Bitch.

Caladbolg

Silas said:

To my knowledge, nobody has been punished in Targossas for not defending, or for not doing anything else. The recognition from the leaders is that this is a game, and people should be free to do what they find enjoyable.

Plus, this is My city. Of course I'm immune to any negative consequences for My actions. Bitch.

A few have that I remember. but it's been awhile.

Bluef said:

While people are suggesting that what you may have done years ago in Achaea should count for what you don't do today, I'd like to throw my name in the hat for Hashani of the Year. 

I agree honestly, I mean no one is here to debate that Silas is one of the greatest players to impact the game entirely if not the good side entirely. At least as of late since this game is pretty old now.

On the other hand we're pretty off topic. With the Silas stuff.