Two-hander Discussion

Antonius

Kenway said:

I was thinking using pithakhan might be okay to drain their mana and make them take bleed damage for more consistent less bursty help. I mean I realize it's not optimal but I have yet to experience anything more frustrating than hugalaz procing on or just before a devastate and stealing the satisfaction of the kill.

Pithakhan is only 10% per proc, and the proc rate isn't that good. Two-handed doesn't attack quickly enough for Pithakhan to outpace the mana regeneration they'd get from moss/potash alone, let alone people who have other forms of mana regen too. Seems like you'd get about as much benefit from not putting a rune on your weapon at all.

Kenway

@Aquil 3-4x more in the combat scene or just in general? I'm thinking specifically people I see fighting.

Antonius

Most, if not all, of the Runewardens I've come across in Hashan, Eleusis and Mhaldor are two-handed. No idea about Cyrene because they aren't relevant in the raiding scene, and I'm never online when Targ fights/raids Ashtan at 4am.

Aquil

Kenway said:

@Aquil 3-4x more in the combat scene or just in general? I'm thinking specifically people I see fighting.

In combat. And some casuals too. The class is incredibly popular because it's easy, you can hulk smash, and don't have to worry about real limb prep or the intricacies of venom application. Every faction ive seen has majority 2h. Especially Hashan. Holy moly.

Lucianus

For mid-tier artie combatants. 2h is the best in my opinion. Since you only really need a 1600cr investment for the best possible artie weapon.

SnB is similar... you only really need a 1600cr longsword and a normal buckler for pvp. But the intricacies of SnB would probably put a lot of players new to knight combat off.

Dual blunt and dual cutting are both seen as really expensive investments to get artie'd as the other two specs (3200cr for two level 3 weapons).

And yeah... I know a lot of experienced combatants will say you only need a level 2 artie weapon to get by and anything higher is a luxury. But most who want the best possible stuff and the potential to reach for the highest capabilities of their class without spending too much... are probably going consider 2h over the other specs.

Cooper

I'm still waiting for them to reverse their decision about not lowering the credit investment for two handed weapon specs vs. one handed (and by association, my morphing weapon).

Makarios

You guys are missing the most important reason that there are a lot of two handers.

It is that bastardswords and warhammers are cool, and these knights all have centuries of making up to do for the embarrassing rapier era.

Szanthax

Makarios said:

You guys are missing the most important reason that there are a lot of two handers.

It is that bastardswords and warhammers are cool, and these knights all have centuries of making up to do for the embarrassing rapier era.

Dsl rapier..... Riiiiiiiight. Fear my op venomlocks

Kenway

Makarios said:

You guys are missing the most important reason that there are a lot of two handers.

It is that bastardswords and warhammers are cool, and these knights all have centuries of making up to do for the embarrassing rapier era.

98% of why im using 2h at all and not vehemently SnB right here

Anedhel

2h is crazy strong, but pretty linear! I've been having a lot of fun with it, though. Enough strength and a level 3 sword and you can take just about anyone if your defence is decent. Groups is a bit lackluster, compared to DWC (which is still the King of Knight specs, imho!), but there's something fun about catching someone not parrying head in a group fight, too, and making them really suffer with a couple precision-focused overhands

Arador

I found using Speed to get them below their sipping threshold to work faster in most cases. You hit faster than elixir balance so you do more damage over time and their sip is eaten by their apply each time since you still outrun apply balance. Add to this some quick limb preps that you can burn if you need to hinder and I found it a better starting method than trying to slowly fracture stack.

Anedhel

I meant in groups, only! Two skull fractures out of the blue when pals are beating on someone can be brutal

Speed for most things, for sure.

Dunn

I just push precision and it works fine. I don't think 2h is overly complicated in any sense, but damn it's satisfying and fun. 

Insignia is my favorite purchase in a long while. 

Arador

Oh in groups, Precision is king. I was talking about 1v1.

You can stick to just precision as well and still make it, I just found Speed at the start to be a faster momentum gain since you very quickly put them in "Oh crap, my health" territory, and hitting them with a limb break right then is a nice way to make them crap themselves or keep their momentum back.

Dunn

I could see that. Especially as a runy trying to maximize hugalaz procs. I'll try it to see if I notice a difference in how fast the momentum ramps up. 

Dunn

Finally made my way through the rest of the thread. I definitely agree that 2h feels off in groups. I love it for the arrow immunity (with sip ring and regen/runes, I barely feel arrows because of deflect), but it feels a bit slow and without effect for the hits it does get in. I definitely feel the urge to go DWC/SNB for 2vx and smaller fights as well because it does not synergize super well with much. It doesn't really provide anything immediately that your team mates can work off of. Sure, you can deliver one venom, which is usually curare. Otherwise, you're building leg tendons that no one else can really capitalize on minus the movement hinder (which will probably get nerfed). In an extended fight I can see it doing alright, but in any group with a small semblance of organization, people die fast and you are likely off balance for half of the time they are alive. 

I dunno. It's a powerhouse 1v1 and the pressure is god tier, but the urge to insignia swap to something with more appealing benefits and higher speed is very real. @Jhui always gives me shit when he notices I'm in 2h as well. Fuck you, buddy. 

Mizik

I feel like 2H blunt with a monk would just be grief. Insta break into BBT Brain?

Dunn

Jhui and I tested brain. It was 30% on him in full plate and runed, so I think it gets knocked down a lot by armor. 

Jhui

Ya just winds up being a shittier, slower, less bursty, less affy, and have to deal with rebounding version of dragon 

Aerek

I don't know, I hate fighting 2H'ers in groups. When I'm training new 2H'ers, I always tell them to go Speed in groups to maximize damage, (Folks are highly unlikely to cure fractures in group fights anyway) and I always point out that they can either go for torso/head to cut off the target's healing power and explode them with team damage, or pick up a hammer go for legs, break/prone every 3 hits. (4 on dragons) Something that I think goes underrated is the ability to Upset off-balance. Limbcounting in groups is hard, but as 2H, you can just drop them prone right when you see them apply to legs, even if off-balance at the time. That's pretty great, especially in small group settings. Brain might not be the best, but it's still a big chunk of damage that doesn't interfere with anyone else' big attacks like some do.

I completely agree that 2H in groups feels boring for someone that is familiar with other classes, and it's not the most competitive choice for the professional raider, (If you have Dragon, sure use that) but for the people that I recommend 2H to, (mostly casual combatants that want to be effective without spending hours or days of work to get there) 2H can be pretty brutal without a lot of effort and training.

Aesi

Plus who doesn't want to wield a buster sword.

NO ONE

Raizen

The hamstring affect is really strong because it lingers even after leaving the room. Multiple stacks and someone isn't getting away.

Shirszae

I am not going to say it is perfect or does not need adjustment, because perhaps it does. But 2h Runewardens specially need something like it, I think. Infernals and Paladins have gravehands/piety to keep people more or less in place, but Isaz does not compare to that at all.  

Armali

I've found great success with break leg/upset, and by great success I mean it totally kills my momentum and ends up killing me usually.

Aquil

Shirszae said:

I am not going to say it is perfect or does not need adjustment, because perhaps it does. But 2h Runewardens specially need something like it, I think. Infernals and Paladins have gravehands/piety to keep people more or less in place, but Isaz does not compare to that at all.  

It has hugalaz. Nuff said.

Keorin

I'm not sure what makes Isaz weaker offensively, really. You have to keep up engage, but that seems pretty doable.

Calira

Keorin said:

I'm not sure what makes Isaz weaker offensively, really. You have to keep up engage, but that seems pretty doable.

Assuming the chance to block movement is the same for Isaz as Piety/Gravehands, then Isaz is automatically weaker because it has mandatory downtime between blockages. Even if the chance is higher you could make an argument that the guaranteed downtime makes it worse overall, since escape attempts tend to happen in frantic bursts.

Keorin

The only mandatory downtime I can think of would be within the second before you attack, assuming you don't want to slow yourself at all. otherwise you should be able to completely keep it up, I'd think.

Kenway

Keorin said:

The only mandatory downtime I can think of would be within the second before you attack, assuming you don't want to slow yourself at all. otherwise you should be able to completely keep it up, I'd think.

Can engage off balance but can't attack off eq. If you're keeping it up, you're not doing anything and they're curing just as much as they would if you didn't keep it up.

Keorin

That's what I was referring to. I'd thought, at least, that the balance time from hitting it and the equilibrium time from putting it back up were similar, so unless they hit it as soon as it goes up and that pushes it so that putting it up would delay your next attack, there shouldn't be downtime. Sounds like I'm likely wrong about that, though.

It seems like it's a trade for the far superior defensive power of stonewall/wunjo+nairat, though, or at least that's how I've always seen it. Given my likely misunderstanding of balance times, maybe not a great one, though.