Two-hander Discussion

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  • EntaroEntaro Plymouth
    Well as it is you can't impale or disembowel with a warhammer (obviously), but every skill in the tree has a cutting and blunt version of the same attack.  Warhammer is slightly faster and can break faster, whilst the sword can give a venom and disembowel.  I haven't played around with it much yet, but it seems like I do need to switch around. 


    (Party): Crixos says, "Open your wunjos, people of Sapience."
    (Party): Crixos says, "Be nairated by my words."
  • ElazarElazar NC/Mhaldor
    Tael said:
    I haven't played the new knight at all, but wasn't the stated intention that you would be swapping back and forth between sword and hammer? Kind of weird that the hammer is just worse for everything other than bashing.
    I use my hammer as much, if not more than my bastard.  I do constantly swap mid fight depending on the method of offense  or defense.  Prepping with precision hammer is the same as speed bastard, so that gives you a good advantage when trying to stack fractures and prep...when venoms arent needed.  Times venoms are neded, like when trying to keep clumsiness stuck, ill use a precision hammer hit to legs, torso, then arm...swap to bastard, use speed hits with curare.  2h is ky favorite spec by far and is only getting better as i learn how to use preps to my advantage (its not all about high fracture counts anymore)
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    edited June 2015
    Warhammer is good for ganks and raids, unless the situation specifically calls for Epseth/Upset with a sword. Whammy's 3-hit limb breaks are nuts to fight back against if you're not a prep class, and like Elazar said, Precision adds up quickly. It does need a "finisher", I think. Should be less powerful than Disembowel, but should be a "big" attack they can use on a prone opponent instead of being forced to switch. (25% on a long balance? Can't make it too strong, since it wouldn't have Disembowel's Impale step)

    2H's leg frack movement block is a bit extreme at the moment, though, which is my only problem with it. In the testing I've done, one fracture is 16% block chance, 2 is 32%, 3 is 42%, 4 is 60%, and at 7, it's literally a 100%.  This is before Isaz/Piety/Ghands is factored in, which means that even 1 frack is a 59% block rate, and 4 is effectively 100%. That's absurd, and basically means that you have to kill a 2H'er in 20-30 seconds, (because that's about how long it takes to build up to 4 leg fracks) or you have to spend the entire fight running constantly to prevent more than 2 leg fracks from building up, because once you have 2, your chances of escape are effectively zero, and they can take you all the way to 7 if they want.

    The only way to survive momentum classes is to be able to escape before you reach a critical threshold, but with 2H, you can't escape long before that threshold arrives. 4 fracks is when you can be devastated, but odds of escape with even 1 fracture+Isaz/Piety/Ghands are slim, so there's just not much you can do. Even if you Tumble out, (through walls, into nairat, w/e) those fracks are still there so you can't put distance between you and the 2H'er, and you're not going to cure more than 1 before he follows you and picks up where he left off. Only Evade can really handle it.

    If tendon blocks were halved, they would still be scary, but you would be able to run at 3 and have a decent chance of living. (3 fracks + Isaz/Piety/Ghands would still be a 50% block rate, which is still crazy, but that's on par with Alchemist block, at least.) Once that gets adjusted, I'll like 2H. It's a powerful class with unique mechanics that give it interesting approaches that are inarguably effective.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • ElazarElazar NC/Mhaldor
    @aerek - there are lots of ways to combat leg fractures.  There are a few people i do fight who make it almost impossible to keep tendons stuck.  Timing shield with rebounding buys you a few seconds with no damage, restoring with tendon prio makes stacking hard- however this can cause a lot of damage.  Flying is another option, while you can get tenticled down, it still buys time. 

    But all in all, leg fracs are devistating ( no pun intended) for those who cant cure them effectively.  


  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    edited June 2015
    "Not curing effectively" only applies when your priorities are non-optimal. Sure, if you're curing torso > legs, you're going to get DSB'ed a lot, but even with proper leg prio, ("curing effectively") sip balance is 4.5s. Precision is 2 fracks at 3.6s. Even if all you do is hit legs, nothing else, you will still inflict 10 fractures in 20 seconds, while I can only cure 5 in that time. (give or take Tree) And that assumes I have infinite health. If I have to start sipping to Hew/falcon/Deathaura/Hugalaz/Demons/etc damage, then I end up DSB'ed even sooner.
    • Flying is blocked by tendons, just like movement and mountjump. Of all my escape options, flying is the best, but it's still essentially impossible with 2+ fractures.
    • Timing Shield with Rebounding delays you for exactly 1.9 seconds, and can only be done every 8.5 seconds, and only if I'm on-EQ for the moment the Rebound comes upThat's a lot of "ifs", and a 2 second delay isn't going to turn the tide of a fight unless sip balance is recovered during that particular 2 seconds, and I only needed to lose 1 fracture to avoid a death. Let's just say those odds are slim.
    • I could Restore, but even Applying/Restoring on loop only cures 2 fractures every 3.7 seconds, while Precision gives 2 every 3.6. At best, this just delays the you, doesn't beat you. It also stops all my offense to do it, and I stand there eating your damage until I die or start sipping instead of applying, at which point you own me.
    Now, none of that is really a problem, momentum-based classes are *supposed* to be unstoppable if you stay in their room, that's the idea. The counter to momentum-based classes is being able to escape and reset the fight if you do so before you reach critical mass. (I.E. When you have when you have 4-5 tempers not 7, or when you have 2-3 leg fracks, not 4) The problem with 2H is, like I said, the fact that you can't escape and can't reset the fight, even if you try before you reach that critical point. 2+ leg fracks is currently a 66%+ block rate when combined with class skills, and 4 is 99%, so effectively impossible. Tumbling out gets me out of the room, but I still have all those leg fracks in the next room, so I can't run, and you just need to follow and pick up where you left off.

    I played 2H. Yes, there were "a few folks" that could keep me at bay. They were pro afflicters where I got extra unlucky with clumsiness, folks with evade, or folks who could outdamage me in 20-30 seconds, since 2H can't stop its momentum to play defense. Everyone else just kinda fell over, even fighters I respect, and even when I was being lazy and using half-cocked tactics like just hammering legs on repeat. Dragons or omni-artefacted folks could hold out longer, just because they can ignore the damage for longer, but even they go down simply because Precision outpaces curing even when they're applying non-stop, and eventually even they hit their sip health thresholds, and by then they can't get away to catch their breath.

    I'm not saying 2H is unbeatable, I'm saying that the block rate makes it "unreasonably difficult" (I'll avoid "impossible") to recover once they do start building up.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • edited June 2015
    Just blight clumsy and laugh.

    Oh, I forgot everyone else doesn't have blight. My bad.

    To add to the discussion:

    Hammering just legs is not going to get 2h anywhere. It'll get them one DSB that will not kill anyone, because it should be pretty damn difficult for them to get 6 fractures for the level 3 break with health apply curing 2 fractures at 6+ and tree also helping. (You forgot to add tree into the equation).

    If they spread out their attacks to other limbs, in order to actually get somewhere it gives you more of a chance to reset the fight.

    But yeah, fracture movement blocking is still silly.

  • Amranu said:
    Hammering just legs is not going to get 2h anywhere. It'll get them one DSB that will not kill anyone, because it should be pretty damn difficult for them to get 6 fractures for the level 3 break with health apply curing 2 fractures at 6+ and tree also helping.
    Tree gets lethargy (that legs gives fairly regularly at 5), precision at 4 fracts puts you at 6 after your last health apply (From 5 to 4), I get balance back 3s later for devastate. Even against people who do go straight for legs, I get three disembowels if I work at it for long enough. Hugalaz+damage from my offense has people sipping a lot too
  • Sure.

    Restore should cure two fractures at 6+, maybe even tree.

    Discuss.
  • As a 2h, I haven't noticed people struggling to get away from me when they want to. Most end up thinking they're safe until it's too late. Also, against other momentum classes I'm usually right about to die (affliction lock or something close) when I end up pulling off a devastate/DSB. 
  • Hammer is underrated. Fast breaks paired with fractures can be MEAN.

    However it is also bugged if you have a level 2 artefact hammer or higher. If you focus speed, you regain balance before you regain battlefury sometimes, leading to screw-ups on your combos.

    I bugged this ages ago but to date not even a response.

  • edited June 2015
    Arador said:
    Hammer is underrated. Fast breaks paired with fractures can be MEAN.

    However it is also bugged if you have a level 2 artefact hammer or higher. If you focus speed, you regain balance before you regain battlefury sometimes, leading to screw-ups on your combos.

    I bugged this ages ago but to date not even a response.
    Is battlefury based on weapon speed? I thought it had its own balance. Although I'd prefer this to be a bug. :)

    Also, if you have a level 3 sword, regular hammer speed is not worth using. If you have two level 3s then it becomes advantageous again.
  • Well hammer speed is not the only thing (and it is damn fast with artie hammer) it is how quickly you can break with it. 4 speed hits to break a limb on most people, 5 on dragons.

    Battlefury is independent of weapon speed but level 2+ hammer with speed focus is too fast, so you regain balance before you regain battlefury about 20% of the time, meaning if you chase balance to hit as quickly as possible, your next hit will have no focus, which is a waste. You could work around it to some degree if Battlefury had its own Class Balance Queue, but currently it does not and I have not heard if they even acknowledge it as a bug.

  • Arador said:
    Well hammer speed is not the only thing (and it is damn fast with artie hammer) it is how quickly you can break with it. 4 speed hits to break a limb on most people, 5 on dragons.

    Battlefury is independent of weapon speed but level 2+ hammer with speed focus is too fast, so you regain balance before you regain battlefury about 20% of the time, meaning if you chase balance to hit as quickly as possible, your next hit will have no focus, which is a waste. You could work around it to some degree if Battlefury had its own Class Balance Queue, but currently it does not and I have not heard if they even acknowledge it as a bug.
    Any chance @Tecton could weigh in? By design or a bug?

    I'd love level 3 artie hammer and have it sync to BF balance. Although if BF balance got sped up I could see potential for it buffing 2h by allowing continuation and recovery more often in the process. 
  • Well it would not be a massive buff. We are talking a 0.2 second or so speed up. Your offence is still constrained by your weapon attack speed, it is just getting to continuation a fraction of a second faster which with continuation's 10+ second battlefury balance is not a game changer.

    Recovery does not need battlefury, you can use it at any time if you are off balance from a Weaponmastery attack.

  • Arador said:
    Well it would not be a massive buff. We are talking a 0.2 second or so speed up. Your offence is still constrained by your weapon attack speed, it is just getting to continuation a fraction of a second faster which with continuation's 10+ second battlefury balance is not a game changer.

    Recovery does not need battlefury, you can use it at any time if you are off balance from a Weaponmastery attack.
    I thought recovery had to have BF, but didn't use it? Maybe that's a different 2h ability. 
  • You are thinking of Perceive

  • ElazarElazar NC/Mhaldor
    Arador said:
    However it is also bugged if you have a level 2 artefact hammer or higher. If you focus speed, you regain balance before you regain battlefury sometimes, leading to screw-ups on your combos.

    I bugged this ages ago but to date not even a response.
    Been having issues with this and times when i try to devistate/prone on balance...my BF Balance hasnt ticked, so i miss the upset.  Leads to flying/duanathar on breaks and it sucks.

    @tecton - this supposed to happen?
  • Elazar said:
    Arador said:
    However it is also bugged if you have a level 2 artefact hammer or higher. If you focus speed, you regain balance before you regain battlefury sometimes, leading to screw-ups on your combos.

    I bugged this ages ago but to date not even a response.
    Been having issues with this and times when i try to devistate/prone on balance...my BF Balance hasnt ticked, so i miss the upset.  Leads to flying/duanathar on breaks and it sucks.

    @tecton - this supposed to happen?
    I've had failed devastate/prone also, while using a bastard sword a few times. I assumed the issue was on my end though. 
  • KenwayKenway San Francisco
    Hammer break leg and upset followed by a hit to their head is awesome and should not be underestimated. Hammer has some awesome uses that i dont see many people taking advantage of.

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • The only boost I would like to see for hammer would be a way to prone on a leg break while still focusing speed. If you want to prone on the break you have to not focus, which slows you down. If you focus, you have to wait for BF balance to prone so they can shield before that.

    Making Upset independent of BF might work but being able to prone anyone with a broken leg at any time might be OP (might not be that OP considering they have to have at least a shriveled leg) Feel free to discuss.

  • IsaiahIsaiah Georgia
    Can someone clarify for me, when fracture count is at 5 or greater applying health will reduce it by 2 or is it at 6 that applying health will reduce it by 2?

    Eat like a caveman, train like a beast. Champions are not born, they are made. 

  • ElazarElazar NC/Mhaldor
    6 or 7 fractures will be reduced by two
  • KenwayKenway San Francisco
    Arador said:
    The only boost I would like to see for hammer would be a way to prone on a leg break while still focusing speed. If you want to prone on the break you have to not focus, which slows you down. If you focus, you have to wait for BF balance to prone so they can shield before that.

    Making Upset independent of BF might work but being able to prone anyone with a broken leg at any time might be OP (might not be that OP considering they have to have at least a shriveled leg) Feel free to discuss.
    Can already arc epseth/upset/web. Don't really think they need to be able to hew epseth/upset while focusing speed. It wouldn't be a -huge- deal but even that tiny bit of prone time just adds to the already bigass pile of room hindrance. Not a lot mind you, but it's just another chance to fail fleeing that they really don't need.

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • KenwayKenway San Francisco
    edited June 2016
    After recently picking up the insignia of mastery artie (so worth) I've been playing around with 2h a lot again and while it is frustrating as someone who is used to Snb and Bard speed/affs/prep I'm enjoying it a lot as a nice change of pace ha ha puns.

    I've seen very few people using 2h in combat which I get because why would you not use SnB. But those I have seen using 2h have all been heavily artied which seems to remove the necessity of clever play against lower health targets (IE me). 

    So I guess I'm just wondering if there are other 2h users out there without a level 2+ sword and if so, what have they found most effective? Every person seems to have a different story on the best use of speed vs precision and the best action to take when breaking a leg (overhand or brain). And what is people's experience with prep fitting into all this. I've been having mild success with prepping torso for a dsb kill but I tend to struggle to get targets over 2 fractures on more than one limb.
    (Possibly because I refuse to use hugalaz on my weapons because rng exploding someone to death isn't very fun)

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    The whole point of 2H is damage, though. You are making it even harder than it is already for yourself with low health if you don't use all the tools you have to cause as much damage as you can (Falcon/Hugalaz/etc)

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    As a general rule of thumb, I use Precision before they hit their sip threshold, since Precision outpaces fracture curing even when you're applying health as quickly as you can. Once they hit the sip threshold, Speed keeps the damage on, which keeps them sipping, which means they aren't curing fractures. However, Precision all the way is valid against someone who has massive health, or has an SOA that can block Speed hits and let them catch up on health curing anyway. Conversely, Speed all the way is valid against low-to-mid health targets, or any class with low damage mitigation that Speed can overwhelm given time.

    When an opponent has low-to-mid health, Braining on a leg break can instantly put them below their sip threshold, which means one quick Brain and then looping Speed can quickly put you on the path to a kill. High-health opponents aren't as vulnerable to Brain, so a Precision Overhand buys you 12 seconds of head applies that lets you stick other fracks in the meantime. When going for fracks on multiple limbs, just have to respect their priorities like any other. If they cure legs>torso, you can use leg fracks to bury torso fracks, you just have to alternate hits or work out the timing to see when you need to Precision vs Speed to stick the fracks you want most.

    Like other momentum classes, 2H will just suffer against classes that can hinder well or escape easily. Unlike other momentum classes, 2H suffers badly from clumsiness, which makes it much more hinderable than those other momentum-based classes. When you say you have trouble sticking fracks on people, are you talking about classes like Serpent, Alchemist, Apostate, Bard? Because those are particularly rough on 2H all around. And of course high-health targets and/or SoA owners will be able to shrug off your damage, thereby letting them cure fracks, so these pose tough obstacles for 2H in general as well.

    Not using Hugalaz runeblades is a pretty sizeable disadvantage for a Runewarden. Remember that Infernals and Paladins get Deathaura/Demons on top of their falcon as passive damage to press the damage pressure, plus better movement hindrance with Gravehands/Piety to keep opponents for that passive damage to work. For Runewardens, Isaz is not as good and you don't have extra passive damage, instead you have Hugalaz, it just comes in big, random chunks instead of small, constant ticks. Not using it might be "sporting" when fighting mid-health opponents, but you're handicapping yourself kinda hard there.

    Now that Fly bypasses tendons, you can Tentacle/Arc folks who don't know to keep flying, but someone looping Fly it will generally stall you. Against those folks, try to rely heavier on Isaz more to stop them from getting out, and when they do manage to, following them with Fly/Engage is likely more effective if you can stay on them. (Frickin' falcon trick)
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • KenwayKenway San Francisco
    I was thinking using pithakhan might be okay to drain their mana and make them take bleed damage for more consistent less bursty help. I mean I realize it's not optimal but I have yet to experience anything more frustrating than hugalaz procing on or just before a devastate and stealing the satisfaction of the kill.

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • KenwayKenway San Francisco
    Oh your falcon trick comment reminds me. Does anyone know what makes some falcons seemingly able to track indoors? Is this a bug or does it have to do with the arrives from the ether message? I know setting the track in the same indoor area let's falcons track until the target leaves the area and goes back indoors and I know having the falcon follow instead of track let's them pass indoors as well. But I have seen multiple instances of falcons tracking to me while standing in both the caves and pantheon areas of Cyrenes arena while mine is definitely unable. 

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    I'm on my way to work, but my first gut instinct says to test whether it's a matter of where you were standing when the Track -began-. You can't order Track on someone indoors, but if they're outdoors when you order the Track, will the falcon then follow indoors? If that's not it, I can't think of another likely solution, but seems simple enough to test.

    ORDER FALCON FOLLOW ignores all those restrictions, but you actually have to be in the same room with the target to do that, and when a falcon is simply following you, you can LOSE it normally, or lose it with Tumble/Leap/Evade/etc, so it has tradeoffs.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • edited June 2016
    Wow forums mobile is shit. I was trying to say I see three or four times more 2h than I've ever seen any other. Hands down, no contest. Including SnB.

    Also track does follow indoors, but if you're fast rough to run a few rooms ahead of the falcon and go indoors it doesn't follow you.
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