Two-hander Discussion

Arador

I just add perceiving in before every attack at the moment though I would like it as a class balance for continuation. 

Kerria

* FALCONs will no longer harry an adventurer off-balance, but can now shred the aura of rebounding.
     Why am I using falcon still? gives a chance to shred rebounding... not an improvement.

* APPLYing health will now cure two level of a fracture again, but only if there are more than 5 fractures.
     We're back to this? I finally felt it was in a good place because quite frankly, if they parry the head, there's not much we can do to build fractures quick enough to keep them from curing it all quickly.

* DEVASTATE will now increase a limb level of damage, if that limb is already broken when attempting the attack.
   While this is an improvement, but how much of a difference is this going to make when we can't get enough fractures?

Dracen

Kerria said:

* FALCONs will no longer harry an adventurer off-balance, but can now shred the aura of rebounding.
     Why am I using falcon still? gives a chance to shred rebounding... not an improvement.
-Wrong, shredding rebounding is tops for 2h. Seriously, you need it.

* APPLYing health will now cure two level of a fracture again, but only if there are more than 5 fractures.
     We're back to this? I finally felt it was in a good place because quite frankly, if they parry the head, there's not much we can do to build fractures quick enough to keep them from curing it all quickly.
-no need for more than 5 fractures to kill, tbh. Think outside the box.

* DEVASTATE will now increase a limb level of damage, if that limb is already broken when attempting the attack.
   While this is an improvement, but how much of a difference is this going to make when we can't get enough fractures?
-You can get 4 fractures easy on anyone, and devastate. Again, think outside the box.

My responses are bolded

Kenway

@Kerria

Falcon is amazing. Removes defences, adds to damage, follows your target or stays with you, either way it helps you detect evade. If you've got a problem with losing the balance thing you've probably never lost a kill to it. It happened. somewhat frequently.

2H was godmode with fractures as they worked. It was literally impossible to keep up with the momentum. Was even more ridiculous for Runies who have a chance on every hit to bring you below your sip threshold in a single balance (assuming you have average health). 5 fractures is a really good solution.

Like you said in your second point, they'll be parrying head. You'll be prepping their legs to break just in the process of gaining fractures. If you can line up your break and devastate that essentially gives you level 2.5 devastate instead of level 2. May be harder to get to 6, but with this change, you really shouldn't need to.

Kerria

If they're using pipe balance for continuous rebounding, which I've seen very rarely. Just a personal observation.


If it takes me 5-6 hits to prep a limb, then I'm not making enough progress in fractures. I get 6 fractures to prep, and then they're healing two leaving me 4, that's if they don't heal -again- before I get balance. Making 3. 

The limb has to be broken prior to the devastate. If I happen to break and then devistate to get the next level, then I can double impale, more of a chance at least to take someone out, but I have a better chance at this rate to get a thurisaz weapon proc. 

i admit im still learning, but it still doesn't seem like much of a balance.

Arador

The devastate change is awesome. Before, breaking a limb could actually screw up your momentum. Precision does less limb damage than speed. You can set up one leg, build fracs on the other then break when you are ready. 

Falcon is interesting, cures change was needed. Would have sucked without the devastation change. 

Antonius

You'd use your falcon for the exact same reason you used it before: it's extra damage and it has a chance to strip defences. It actually does more damage and (probably) has more chances to strip defences, because it's no longer knocking off balance in place of those attacks.

The ability to strip rebounding seems like it would be pretty inconsequential in a lot of fights, though. Most people will be attacking more quickly than a falcon does. The chances of you being off balance, your opponent having rebounding, your falcon attacking and stripping rebounding on that hit, and your opponent not attacking to drop their own rebounding before you regained balance are pretty low.

Kenway

Kerria said:

If they're using pipe balance for continuous rebounding, which I've seen very rarely. Just a personal observation.


If it takes me 5-6 hits to prep a limb, then I'm not making enough progress in fractures. I get 6 fractures to prep, and then they're healing two leaving me 4, that's if they don't heal -again- before I get balance. Making 3. 

The limb has to be broken prior to the devastate. If I happen to break and then devistate to get the next level, then I can double impale, more of a chance at least to take someone out, but I have a better chance at this rate to get a thurisaz weapon proc. 

i admit im still learning, but it still doesn't seem like much of a balance.

You're operating under the assumption that you won't be able to get them to sip instead of apply.
If that is the case then yeah, you shouldn't really be gaining many fractures on them. You need to judge this change on how it performs in -gaining- momentum and once it -has- the momentum. You don't go 0-60 in one balance. You go 0-10, 10-20, 20-30 , 30-40, 40-50, 50-60 and by that point you're laughing as they try pathetically to survive but you know they're already long dead.

Aerek

I'm waiting to test if the falcon strips rebounding, if present, every time, (Like Erode hitting Shield first) or if it's just a chance for it to happen. If I -know- it's going to strip rebounding because rebounding is up, that's something I can plan around, and would be good when someone is turtling up behind rebounding and shield. If it's just a chance, and I'm just waiting to see if the stars align, falcon hits when rebound is up, and might strip it, then I'd honestly prefer the falcon just stick with passive health damage.

Also, need to see if stripping rebounding requires talons or not. If so, I think there's a case to be made for 2H not using talons at all, just so you have guaranteed health pressure from the falcon. Lacking talons means less damage on individual hits, but more damage over time because none of your falcon hits are "wasted" on non-essential defence strips.

Antonius

@Aerek: It's only a chance, not guaranteed; my very limited testing makes me want to say that it's maybe a 15-20% chance. Doesn't require steel talons. Also doesn't appear to work if they're shielded as well as having rebounding up, since your falcon will just keep banging against their shield instead.

Seems essentially useless, to be honest. Not really sufficient to make me want to bother remembering to use my falcon in 100% of fights.

Jovolo

Should make it automatically default to rebound strip if rebounding is up when the falcon attacks

Dracen

Kerria said:

If they're using pipe balance for continuous rebounding, which I've seen very rarely. Just a personal observation.
If someone doesn't have rebound on keepup against 2h, they need to rethink their life decisions.

If it takes me 5-6 hits to prep a limb, then I'm not making enough progress in fractures. I get 6 fractures to prep, and then they're healing two leaving me 4, that's if they don't heal -again- before I get balance. Making 3. 

Like I said, think outside the box. I'll poke you IG about it. Give you a few pointers.

The limb has to be broken prior to the devastate. If I happen to break and then devistate to get the next level, then I can double impale, more of a chance at least to take someone out, but I have a better chance at this rate to get a thurisaz weapon proc. 

You can take someone out without mangled limbs. I promise you, it's not as hard as you think it is.

i admit im still learning, but it still doesn't seem like much of a balance.

@Kerria Srsly

Antonius

Jovolo said:

Should make it automatically default to rebound strip if rebounding is up when the falcon attacks

That's really not necessary. Passive balance loss was just a shitty mechanic that needed to go away, there wasn't much of a need to give Knight anything in return.

Mizik

@Kerria Are we even playing the same game? 

Why would you prep limb?

2H is the strongest of the four specs. Also the easiest. 

Kerria

My impression, mostly from talking to others is that a limb prep is needed to aid in taking out the higher health opponents. So far it's worked to a moderate degree (I still have my issues executing.) 

prep torso with 5-6 hits. Rotate head and legs with prep, break torso, at least one leg, devitstate legs, imp dsb, and if you're lucky you can get a second imp dsb to go for the final kill.

By this time I should have at at least sensitivity nausea and maybe lethargy, sticking with a kelp venom rotation.

Then again, I could be trying to hard to make it fit into what I know and going about it all wrong.. 

Aerek

Antonius said:

Jovolo said:

Should make it automatically default to rebound strip if rebounding is up when the falcon attacks

That's really not necessary. Passive balance loss was just a shitty mechanic that needed to go away, there wasn't much of a need to give Knight anything in return.

I didn't read the classlead for this particular change, is that really the reason for this? I've lost more setups to Torcs and Kai Cripple than I ever have from random falcon balance hits, so if falcon hits are shitty and OP, then we'd better prepare from some pretty far-reaching nerfs across the game. (Isaz still has its original functionality by the way, which is predictable, recurring balance loss.)

I assumed the balance hits were getting removed because outside of the stupendously lucky falcon/Impale/DSBs, they didn't really synergize well with Knight strategies, so they were removing something that didn't help much and adding something that would synergize more, and a predictable rebounding strip would certainly be of use to all 4 of the Knight specs. If they're going to have rebounding strips attached to falcons, it should be 100%, or they should just drop that aspect and let them damage and def strip without need for more 'ifs' and 'maybes'.

You just pointed out that you don't feel the need to bring your falcon most of the time, and I tend to agree. (Unless you're 2H, where that passive damage really puts the pressure on) If falcons aren't terribly useful, then they could use some useful functionality. A predictable rebounding strip would be a reason to bring mine more often.

Yurdan

Is Isaz really predictable? Seems pretty random to me.

Kenway

Yurdan said:

Is Isaz really predictable? Seems pretty random to me.

Prones every 10s.

Mizik

Kerria said:

My impression, mostly from talking to others is that a limb prep is needed to aid in taking out the higher health opponents. So far it's worked to a moderate degree (I still have my issues executing.) 

prep torso with 5-6 hits. Rotate head and legs with prep, break torso, at least one leg, devitstate legs, imp dsb, and if you're lucky you can get a second imp dsb to go for the final kill.

By this time I should have at at least sensitivity nausea and maybe lethargy, sticking with a kelp venom rotation.

Then again, I could be trying to hard to make it fit into what I know and going about it all wrong.. 

Consider that most opponents won't sip health until they get very low. You'll want to build health pressure right away, so that they eventually either A) Stop applying, letting you just stack freely, or Die to damage pressure. Always open with a hugalaz sketch, always keep isaz + engage up. It's super easy to put an "if not engaged then send("engage " ..t) at the end of all your aliases, then grab all the relevant lines (there's like 4-5).

There's two types of preps. Offensive and defensive vs fast balance classes.

Defensive: If you're fighting something overwhelmingly offensive, like a Bard, speed knight, Serpent, Apostate, Sentinel, etc., then you'll immediately want to stack tendons for relapsing lethargy, and wrists for clumsiness (but only if they can miss). You'll want to slash curare every slash to force a magnesium eat every balance, letting lethargy stick to extend their balance and render their offense useless.

You can then work on Offense. Two options: double DSB or damage grind. Any real fighter will have their head perma parried, or they'll die to extended elixir balance.

DSB: Simple. If they're still applying, go Precision and stack tendons to 6. Once they're at 6 tendons, I usually switch to Speed to get a few torso stacks so they're as far from full health when I: Devastate, DSB, DSB, then Speed and Underhands to torso if they survive. If they're not applying to legs before the Devastate, sketch hugalaz before Devastating. Really, nothing ever survived this. Keep in mind, once stacks get high, enemy health will be unavoidably low. They'll be going full time bail attempt mode.

Grind: This is crazy potent and my usual go to. Assume most players will just apply health right to death. Otherwise, assume they'll only sip when they're low, perhaps under 50%. Focus speed, sketch hugalaz, and start bashing in their torso - especially if you had to start this fight defensive, the tendons you stacked for lethargy will also prevent their escape once they're screwed. At 6-7 stacks, even Dragons are sipping for about 400 damage. By the time most opponents try to retreat, it's too late. They shield, allowing you to lay on the Carves - maximizing your DPS for you. Carve is 2H's fastest most damaging attack. There's no catching up. They can't apply because they'll die to damage, yet their sip is fuckall. If they do apply, they're not sipping and they're dead anyway. Just keep Engage + Isaz and be ready to chase if they run. At this point, if they fly out of engage (huge pain), consider sniping for kill before tentacle, and ALWAYS Arc on Tentacle. Unless you pack Lethal Ink and can re-engage in time.

Antonius

Aerek said:

Antonius said:

Jovolo said:

Should make it automatically default to rebound strip if rebounding is up when the falcon attacks

That's really not necessary. Passive balance loss was just a shitty mechanic that needed to go away, there wasn't much of a need to give Knight anything in return.

I didn't read the classlead for this particular change, is that really the reason for this? I've lost more setups to Torcs and Kai Cripple than I ever have from random falcon balance hits, so if falcon hits are shitty and OP, then we'd better prepare from some pretty far-reaching nerfs across the game. (Isaz still has its original functionality by the way, which is predictable, recurring balance loss.)

I didn't say it was OP, I said it was a shitty mechanic. It's not interesting or fun, it doesn't contribute anything meaningful on either side of the fight.

Torc and kai cripple have counters (ignoring any discussions about how viable those are) and require active input at the correct time from your opponent. Passive balance loss, on the other hand, requires no input and has no real viable counter, and while it may not account for many lost setups - though I've certainly lost kills due to balance loss from both mine and my opponent's falcons - it unnecessarily stalls the momentum of balance-based classes (the point of the classlead that got it changed) on top of Knight's already good hindering through venoms (as most specs), while having considerably less effect on equilibrium-based classes.

a predictable rebounding strip would certainly be of use to all 4 of the Knight specs.

It would be of use, but it's a buff that I feel isn't necessary. Most of the knight specs aren't struggling right now, and there's not really any justification for making rebounding less of a factor than it currently is against them.

You just pointed out that you don't feel the need to bring your falcon most of the time, and I tend to agree. (Unless you're 2H, where that passive damage really puts the pressure on) If falcons aren't terribly useful, then they could use some useful functionality. A predictable rebounding strip would be a reason to bring mine more often.

I don't bring mine because it's "just" extra damage, and extra damage is not something I personally need. I'm perfectly happy with the current situation where my falcon is an added option rather than something I'd absolutely have to use in every fight. If falcons start stripping rebounding on every hit they land while your opponent has it up then at some point that becomes the norm we balance around, and your falcon starts to become a requirement for every fight you go into.

Right now the falcon is going to be contributing more damage than it was previously, which is a bit of a buff to Knight damage potential across the board, but one which ultimately helps Knights who don't have the damage potential that's possible with artefact weapons and gauntlets a lot more than it helps somebody like myself, which is great.

Tarkanian

From someone who hasn't logged in significantly before the big changes: are the things mentioned above (specially what @Mizik said) applicable whether the 2H weapon is blunt or cutting?

Mizik

Don't use a hammer. Only useful for bashing.

Tarkanian

^ Gotcha. Thanks.

Noak

If I prep a single leg then break it, and then devastate at 4-5 stacks does that bring both legs to level 2 breaks or just the prepped limb? Or does the 4-5 stacks already bring it to level 2?

Aerek

Devastating with 4-5 fractures will break both legs to level 2. If one leg is already damaged to level 2 at the time of the Devastate, it will move up to level 3. Pretty good stuff.

Arador

Yeah that change was awesome. Can actually use limb breaks now and not avoid them. 

Entaro

This topic kinda tailed off.  How is it lately?  Warhammer still not great compared to Greatsword? Any changes since February I should know about?

Tael

I haven't played the new knight at all, but wasn't the stated intention that you would be swapping back and forth between sword and hammer? Kind of weird that the hammer is just worse for everything other than bashing.

Sena

I remember the stated intention being that any knight weapon would be viable on its own, so you could use whichever you prefer and never need to switch, but someone who does use both would of course have an advantage.

Tael

Sena said:

I remember the stated intention being that any knight weapon would be viable on its own, so you could use whichever you prefer and never need to switch, but someone who does use both would of course have an advantage.

My understanding was that swapping mid-combat between the 2-handers would be the optimal thing to do.

I can't find the specific post, but I know some admin (Tecton?) suggested this when it was pointed out that 2h seemed to need only one artefact weapon while the other specs needed two (or a weapon and a shield) for maximum efficacy - the idea was that swapping would be more essential for maximising the potential of 2h combat, which would mean you would need two weapons.