Sword and Board Discussion

Valdus

That's not bad then. If buying a Level 3 Longsword is what's required to get the most out of SoA so that you can enjoy the insane physical defense, I don't have a problem with it.

Nice.

Kenway

I issued something at some point (forget what exactly) and got back a response that they were capping SnB speed at 1.8s. I'll look back through messages at some point sorry this isn't more detailed I've been moving all day and am about to pass out

Ernam

Kenway said:

I issued something at some point (forget what exactly) and got back a response that they were capping SnB speed at 1.8s. I'll look back through messages at some point sorry this isn't more detailed I've been moving all day and am about to pass out

That's cool, but you don't get 1.8 with L3 longsword & SoA.

Caladbolg

So I was talking to Xer earlier and he said his targeted arc was 2.2-2.4 but mine is currently 2.7, Both using level 3 longswords just curious if runewarden gets a faster target arc than paladin (assuming runes or something) or if im doing something wrong?

Xer

No, it's 2.7 now. Must have been something off earlier

Cooper

Just a heads up that 1.9 seconds is as fast as S&B goes without outside factors (demon fury, canticle, etc), that's with a L3 Longsword + Buckler.

Caladbolg

Cooper said:

Just a heads up that 1.9 seconds is as fast as S&B goes without outside factors (demon fury, canticle, etc), that's with a L3 Longsword + Buckler.

I'm at 1.8ish, generally 1.82-5

lv3 longsword, buckler and Paladin.

Cooper

Then your timestamps are most likely wrong. After a lot of testing, Makarios told me it is hard capped at 1.9s unless you have outside modifiers.

Ernam

Caladbolg said:

Cooper said:

Just a heads up that 1.9 seconds is as fast as S&B goes without outside factors (demon fury, canticle, etc), that's with a L3 Longsword + Buckler.

I'm at 1.8ish, generally 1.82-5

lv3 longsword, buckler and Paladin.

I also see this quite regularly, so you're not crazy.

Xer

Does Nimble count as an outside modifier?

Antonius

Unlikely. Nimble would be worth a lot more than a reduction of .05-.08 seconds, anyway.

Achilles

I'm in the 1.8 range too.  

Cooper

No, nimble is not an outside modifier.

Demon fury, canticle, staff of nicator, reflexes - those are the outside modifier things.

I hope Makarios doesn't mind, but here's his message regarding it:

Sent By: Makarios on 2/25/23:17

There's a lot of weird values people are throwing around for the cap. 1.9 is definitely as high as it can go (without nonstandard bonuses).

Ernam

Cooper said:

No, nimble is not an outside modifier.

Demon fury, canticle, staff of nicator, reflexes - those are the outside modifier things.

I hope Makarios doesn't mind, but here's his message regarding it:

Sent By: Makarios on 2/25/23:17

There's a lot of weird values people are throwing around for the cap. 1.9 is definitely as high as it can go (without nonstandard bonuses).

Well, runeblades might be an outside modifier, and should be.

Also, I'd be seriously pissed off if I paid 800 credits to upgrade my longsword from a level 2 just to find out that its ONLY use (being faster) didn't actually occur, or was reduced in any way.

SnB is the only class that uses longswords, so a cap to Slice speed is a cap for virtually every use of the weapon in the game.  Selling an artefact weapon for $400 under the pretense of a proportional improvement then capping its only actual use in the game is pretty unethical.

I also don't understand why there'd ever have to be a speedcap anyways (for any weapon-based ability) now that weapon stats are fixed.  Just cap the speed by using an equation that "caps" speed at level 3 attack speed.  Otherwise, why buy them?

Cooper

I mostly agree.

You probably realized it since you edited, but Runewardens lagua/laguz/lagul aren't the same weapon runes they were before. Runies don't get bonus speed now.

As far as why there is a soft cap at 1.9s and if they are being misleading with the stats on level 2 versus level 3 longswords, I don't know and personally don't care. My morphing weapon can only be a level 3 weapon so I'm not interested in the difference between level 2 and 3. If you think there is an issue, test it out and get some numbers and submit it as a classlead. The new specs are going to be under close scrutiny for a while and Tecton never wants to purposely mislead people.

Kenway

Ernam said:

Cooper said:

No, nimble is not an outside modifier.

Demon fury, canticle, staff of nicator, reflexes - those are the outside modifier things.

I hope Makarios doesn't mind, but here's his message regarding it:

Sent By: Makarios on 2/25/23:17

There's a lot of weird values people are throwing around for the cap. 1.9 is definitely as high as it can go (without nonstandard bonuses).

Well, runeblades might be an outside modifier, and should be.

Also, I'd be seriously pissed off if I paid 800 credits to upgrade my longsword from a level 2 just to find out that its ONLY use (being faster) didn't actually occur, or was reduced in any way.

SnB is the only class that uses longswords, so a cap to Slice speed is a cap for virtually every use of the weapon in the game.  Selling an artefact weapon for $400 under the pretense of a proportional improvement then capping its only actual use in the game is pretty unethical.

I also don't understand why there'd ever have to be a speedcap anyways (for any weapon-based ability) now that weapon stats are fixed.  Just cap the speed by using an equation that "caps" speed at level 3 attack speed.  Otherwise, why buy them?

Wouldn't capping the speed like this mean that using a better sword allows you to pair it with a better shield? IE you need a level 1 and a buckler for ~1.9 so a level 2 would be able to use a cavalry and a level 3 would be able to use a banded/SoA? (Assuming each level gives .1s balance reduction) How is that a problem? All that does is up your DPS and physical protection.

Caladbolg

Kenway said:

Ernam said:

Cooper said:

No, nimble is not an outside modifier.

Demon fury, canticle, staff of nicator, reflexes - those are the outside modifier things.

I hope Makarios doesn't mind, but here's his message regarding it:

Sent By: Makarios on 2/25/23:17

There's a lot of weird values people are throwing around for the cap. 1.9 is definitely as high as it can go (without nonstandard bonuses).

Well, runeblades might be an outside modifier, and should be.

Also, I'd be seriously pissed off if I paid 800 credits to upgrade my longsword from a level 2 just to find out that its ONLY use (being faster) didn't actually occur, or was reduced in any way.

SnB is the only class that uses longswords, so a cap to Slice speed is a cap for virtually every use of the weapon in the game.  Selling an artefact weapon for $400 under the pretense of a proportional improvement then capping its only actual use in the game is pretty unethical.

I also don't understand why there'd ever have to be a speedcap anyways (for any weapon-based ability) now that weapon stats are fixed.  Just cap the speed by using an equation that "caps" speed at level 3 attack speed.  Otherwise, why buy them?

Wouldn't capping the speed like this mean that using a better sword allows you to pair it with a better shield? IE you need a level 1 and a buckler for ~1.9 so a level 2 would be able to use a cavalry and a level 3 would be able to use a banded/SoA? (Assuming each level gives .1s balance reduction) How is that a problem? All that does is up your DPS and physical protection.

Going to the next shield up droped me from 1.8 to 2.0ish. So even if it's capped at 1.9 and somethings wrong, (Or nimble is considered an outside modifier) then your still losing speed.

On the other hand is 1.9 is the cap with buckler/lv3 longsword and nimble is 10% then it should have a .19 second drop on the total speed throwing us down to about 1.88ish, since im clocking in around 1.82 -1.84 with out using queing with about .020-.042 lag then that puts it right at 1.8 on the dot.

But honestly if something was the matter with the .1 second difference I think they would have commented in the thread about it already.

Also double checked timestamps and all that. coming up correct.

Annnd raze is like 1.6ish if that helps.

Eld

Caladbolg said:
...
Going to the next shield up droped me from 1.8 to 2.0ish. So even if it's capped at 1.9 and somethings wrong, (Or nimble is considered an outside modifier) then your still losing speed.

On the other hand is 1.9 is the cap with buckler/lv3 longsword and nimble is 10% then it should have a .19 second drop on the total speed throwing us down to about 1.88ish, since im clocking in around 1.82 -1.84 with out using queing with about .020-.042 lag then that puts it right at 1.8 on the dot.

1.9 - .19 = 1.71

If you check balance times on a reasonably large number of attacks, the effects of your ping should average out to zero, since you'll get the same delay, on average, on the attack message and the balance recovery message, provided your ping is at least relatively stable.

Ernam

Eld said:

If you check balance times on a reasonably large number of attacks, the effects of your ping should average out to zero, since you'll get the same delay, on average, on the attack message and the balance recovery message, provided your ping is at least relatively stable.

For speed tests, I queue 10-20 attacks and average out from beginning to end, which should eliminate all randomness (for a solid average) and reduce ping fluctuation to an ignorable amount.

Kenway said:

Ernam said:

[[...]]

I also don't understand why there'd ever have to be a speedcap anyways (for any weapon-based ability) now that weapon stats are fixed.  Just cap the speed by using an equation that "caps" speed at level 3 attack speed.  Otherwise, why buy them?

Wouldn't capping the speed like this mean that using a better sword allows you to pair it with a better shield? IE you need a level 1 and a buckler for ~1.9 so a level 2 would be able to use a cavalry and a level 3 would be able to use a banded/SoA? (Assuming each level gives .1s balance reduction) How is that a problem? All that does is up your DPS and physical protection.

Yes, but I don't care.  I didn't pay for a weapon upgrade so that I could also pay for a shield upgrade for a defensive bonus that I don't want or need.

It's kindof like selling a car that can go 200mph on the advertisement but putting a 65mph speed governor on it that can't be removed.  The car can't go 200mph, so don't lie to me.

Cooper

My tests were on the test server that gives you balance time down to .01, confirmed by Makarios telling me I wasn't bugged, that my times were right, and that 1.9 was as fast as you can go.

It's possible there are speed bugs out there that are allowing you to go under 1.9, but that is unintended. 

Kafziel

For those of us that don't have artie longswords, how fast is a level 1/buckler and a level 2/buckler?

Kenway

Kafziel said:

For those of us that don't have artie longswords, how fast is a level 1/buckler and a level 2/buckler?

I'm at 1.9 with level 1 and buckler (closer to 2 for the most part honestly but usually somewhere like 1.96)

Ernam

@Makarios, @Tecton if you're selling longsword upgrades that don't actually upgrade your character as advertised (speed stat), this should be mentioned in the artefact help file.

Again, there's no reason to have "speed caps" on a weapon that only has one use, when that one use has an equation that can be readily altered to "cap" the maximum speed of the attack.  "Speed caps" only needed to exist due to random-stat forged weapons, which no longer exist.

This is particularly true since apparently "other factors" (Gigue, etc) don't count towards the speed cap anyways.

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

@Makarios, @Tecton if you're selling longsword upgrades that don't actually upgrade your character as advertised (speed stat), this should be mentioned in the artefact help file.

Again, there's no reason to have "speed caps" on a weapon that only has one use, when that one use has an equation that can be readily altered to "cap" the maximum speed of the attack.  "Speed caps" only needed to exist due to random-stat forged weapons, which no longer exist.

This is particularly true since apparently "other factors" (Gigue, etc) don't count towards the speed cap anyways.

Techinally as Mizik has brought up before Jabbing with a dagger in mir stance is better bashing than actually using Drawslash. in those suitations having a level 3 longsword (or any level 3 weapons) may make a huge difference in what's intended and what's not intended (like old weaponry)

On the other hand I'm not sure if when they actually say capped at 1.9 means you can't go faster than 1.9 or if it just means level 3 longsword + buckler should be a 1.9 balance with nimble which if is the case then the "speed bug" could be effecting every knight to the point that everyone is .1 seconds faster than they should be.

Especially since fury and other things would raise you above that cap.


Also though has anyone considered weaponry adding speed a difference ( I think it adds speed?)

Kenway

@Ernam
<Insert quote from HELP CREDITS about perceived value here>
I'm not saying you shouldn't get maybe a refund or something but I -am- saying it's still perfectly useful for people who use the class for what it is (affliction/prep-hybrid-monstrosity) rather than what you do which is essentially just making skill shots by -only- locking people. It's not useful to you maybe, but for the vast majority of SnB users, it certainly is.

Arties are ALWAYS better now. If they increase the speed, they increase the dps, they increase the prep rate, they increase the affliction rate. All at once. But if they cap the speed and make it so you can use a better shield with the faster sword, that means it only increases one of those things. You're saying you're working with 1.8ish I'm working with almost 2 and I can still lock people. So again while I get your desire for maybe a refund because you misunderstood what the weapon would accomplish, I think what it accomplishes is perfectly fine.

You wanna lock people and nothing else and get every single bang for every single buck on your arties? 
Go Serpent, go Alchemist, hell, go Blademaster again.
Knight is designed around a damage finisher so you can't blame them for making the arties for it meet that end.

Eld

Caladbolg said:

Ernam said:

@Makarios, @Tecton if you're selling longsword upgrades that don't actually upgrade your character as advertised (speed stat), this should be mentioned in the artefact help file.

Again, there's no reason to have "speed caps" on a weapon that only has one use, when that one use has an equation that can be readily altered to "cap" the maximum speed of the attack.  "Speed caps" only needed to exist due to random-stat forged weapons, which no longer exist.

This is particularly true since apparently "other factors" (Gigue, etc) don't count towards the speed cap anyways.

Techinally as Mizik has brought up before Jabbing with a dagger in mir stance is better bashing than actually using Drawslash. in those suitations having a level 3 longsword (or any level 3 weapons) may make a huge difference in what's intended and what's not intended (like old weaponry)

On the other hand I'm not sure if when they actually say capped at 1.9 means you can't go faster than 1.9 or if it just means level 3 longsword + buckler should be a 1.9 balance with nimble which if is the case then the "speed bug" could be effecting every knight to the point that everyone is .1 seconds faster than they should be.

Especially since fury and other things would raise you above that cap.


Also though has anyone considered weaponry adding speed a difference ( I think it adds speed?)

I would assume that @Cooper's tests on the test server were with weaponmastery and weaponry both trans.

Ernam

Didn't say I want a refund, just saying that:
A ) It's somewhat deceptive, and I don't appreciate finding things out like this after the fact, and
B ) there's no point in a "speed cap" anyways, considering random forged stats are a thing of the past.  Fix the skill, if needed, so it's fair to everyone.  Don't put sloppy, hidden cutoffs on artefacts after you've sold them to people.

Kenway

Ernam said:

B ) there's no point in a "speed cap" anyways, considering random forged stats are a thing of the past.  Fix the skill, if needed, so it's fair to everyone.  Don't put sloppy, hidden cutoffs on artefacts after you've sold them to people.

???

Ernam

Kenway said:

Ernam said:

B ) there's no point in a "speed cap" anyways, considering random forged stats are a thing of the past.  Fix the skill, if needed, so it's fair to everyone.  Don't put sloppy, hidden cutoffs on artefacts after you've sold them to people.

???

Fix the speed equation in the Slice ability so that L3 weapons reach the 1.9 second speed cap, without truncating the actual value the equation produces (which is what it's currently [supposedly] doing).  That way players are actually getting a proportional value when they upgrade to L3.

Cooper

Okay, so I did some testing for everyone. This is on the test server using the actual games balance recovery times, as an Infernal with trans weaponmastery/weaponry under no other influences. I tested on both denizens and a player, with all the smashes, to make sure everything was the same time. I also tested with a bought level 3 longsword and my l3 morphing weapon just to be safe.

The L0 is a regular longsword, not an artefact.

The time on the left is the server base time before nimble is taken into account. The time on the right is after nimble is taken into account. The four numbers represent balance time in milliseconds (I put the decimal in for easier reading).

L0/Buc	229	2.061
L0/SoA	246	2.214
L1/Buc	225	2.025
L1/SoA	243	2.187
L2/Buc	221	1.989
L2/SoA	238	2.142
L3/Buc	214	1.926
L3/SoA	232	2.088

So as you can see, every level of artefact does make your balance recovery faster while wielding an SoA or a buckler.

From level 2 to level 3 there is a .06s second difference. I don't think that is enough to ever effect a real fight, and if it did, it's absolutely a fluke. Do keep in mind that there is a 5 damage difference and an accuracy difference, which will both help in fights.

Ernam, I mostly did this for you, because I wanted to give you accurate numbers before the upcoming classlead season so you can classlead appropriately. I do agree that there should be a tangible and significant difference between a L2 and L3 artefact, and I'm not exactly happy with the benefit provided from a level 3 artefact.

That being said, I don't think we're going to see much difference in speed even if they do decide to change things. Maybe a tiny, tiny bit faster. I think we'd be better off asking for more damage and accuracy (people still dodge me at level 3 artefact level, that shouldn't really happen), because if we go much faster the spec will be broken.