Sword and Board Discussion

Addama

Atalkez said:

If you miss slice does shield still work?

Yes.

Makarios

Combination is comparable to dsl. Its not comparable to twoarts/striking, alchemy/physiology, etc. Those are distinct actions, combination is a single one even if you're performing multiple attacks, mechanically speaking.

Addama

So the ideal setup seems to be:

Prep torso, if torso is parried, guardbreak/smash mid, then shieldstrike high/slice torso/smash for parry mitigation.

Prep leg, whichever one isn't parried.

Once both are prepped, guardbreak once or twice for max ferocity.

Shieldstrike low/slice leg epseth/concuss.  This will prone and blackout.

Wield morningstar, shatter the other leg (doesn't matter if parried because they're prone).

Slice torso slike/smash high.  This will break the torso and put them off focus balance/mending balance so they can't sip or eat moss/potash until they get off restoration balance, so at least ~3 seconds.

Impale/club, the stun buys time so that they can't writhe off the disembowel.

17 Strength gave me an ~80% disembowel, if you're prepping with slice prefarar/smash mid and shieldstriking mid for sensitivity liberally, you should have enough predamage to kill, if not swap to broadsword/tower and rend/smash (Torso won't be healed by this time) for another ~30% hit.

Wessux

Mizik said:

Bro, if we could see that Infestation imp tho


Sheeeeeit

It gives a third person message when they get impatience from infestation.  

Exelethril

Trying SnB out -

You rub some aconite on a longsword.

You slice into the right leg of Alrena with a longsword.

You duck low and smash your shield into the knees of Alrena, causing them to buckle underneath her.

The ferocity of your blows renders any defence useless against you.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26384e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:03.526)- 36.2%  

Alrena twitches spasmodically.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26384e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:03.610)- 36.2%  

Alrena takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on her legs.

[+ Alrena : SALVE|LEGS - DEFEND HER+]

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26384e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:03.623)- 36.2%  

"The voices! The voices! Get them out of my head!!" Alrena moans, holding her head.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26384e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:04.118)- 36.2%   

Alrena eats a goldenseal root.

[+ Alrena : GOLDENSEAL|PLUMBUM +]

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26400e (100%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:04.367)- 36.2%  

You have recovered balance on all limbs.[+] LIMB BALANCE [+]  LIMB BALANCE [+]

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26400e (100%), 18900w (100%) dbk|ex (10:55:05.696)- 36.2%  

Shieldstrike Alrena high

Combination Alrena impale club

You spin in a quick circle, using the momentum to savagely strike the chin of Alrena with the edge 

of a grand shield of reinforced steel bearing the city arms of Eleusis.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26392e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|ex (10:55:06.065)- 36.2%  

You draw your blade back and plunge it deep into the body of Alrena impaling her to the hilt.

[+ Alrena : IMPALED +]

You bring your shield crashing down onto the sternum of Alrena, stunning her momentarily.

You batter at your enemy's defences, seeking an opening.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26367e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:06.142)- 36.2%  

Alrena takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on her legs.

[+ Alrena : SALVE|LEGS - DEFEND HER+]

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26367e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:07.718)- 36.2%  

Alrena looks pale and gaunt as her body shudders on the end of the weapon.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26387e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:08.165)- 36.2%   

With a look of agony on her face, Alrena manages to writhe herself free of the weapon which impaled 

her.

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26387e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:09.213)- 36.2%  

Alrena stands up.

[+ Alrena : STANDING +]

6050h (100%), 4400m (100%), 26387e (99%), 18900w (100%) dbk|e (10:55:09.222)- 36.2%    

You have recovered balance on all limbs.[+] LIMB BALANCE [+]  LIMB BALANCE [+]

Do I need a double leg break and/or buckler to dsb or is single leg possible?

Antonius

I suspect that doing Shieldstrike high is screwing it up, because the stun from that means you don't get the (probably longer, I didn't test) stun from club when you impale.

Arador

The stuns do not stack/reset the timer and the stun in club is a bit longer. I tried using shield strike to stun and smash for extra damage but it never worked. 

Addama

Yeah, I was making it work with the Tower shield, but the margin of error was so low that I switched to Buckler (notice how she writhes off ~.01 seconds before you regain balance).

Also you're going to want to save that Shieldstrike to prone right before the leg break, apply slike, smash high so that they can't sip/eat.

Arador

They should not apply to leg before curing the anorexia since it is all a single combo.

Addama

Arador said:

They should not apply to leg before curing the anorexia since it is all a single combo.

Hence it also buys an extra second for the Disembowel to go through.

Arador

You mean buys you an extra second to impale. As long as you impale before the restoration salve takes effect and you stun, the extra second does not really mean anything. 

Morthif

Addama said:

Yeah, I was making it work with the Tower shield, but the margin of error was so low that I switched to Buckler (notice how she writhes off ~.01 seconds before you regain balance).

Also you're going to want to save that Shieldstrike to prone right before the leg break, apply slike, smash high so that they can't sip/eat.

For RNGs sake you will want to shieldstrike after the combo so they don't stand in that microsecond between prone and break.

Addama

Arador said:

You mean buys you an extra second to impale. As long as you impale before the restoration salve takes effect and you stun, the extra second does not really mean anything. 

Balance regain after the Shatter seems to be inconsistent, sometimes I regain balance before the Shatter goes through, sometimes at the same time, sometimes after.  Worst case scenario seems to be the Shatter goes through and I regain balance .5 seconds later.  In that case, I break their other leg and they're 2.7 seconds into restoration balance by the time I slice torso, and by the time I regain balance for impale, that's ~4.9 seconds - the margin of error there is microscopic.

If I hit with Slike on the torso, rather than applying restoration to the other leg (which would enable them to writhe off the disembowel), they'll cure anorexia first, so they won't have applied restoration to the other leg pre-impale.  Worst case scenario (I regain balance .5 seconds after Shatter) they've cured the first leg, but not even applied to the second, by the time I impale.

The extra second means a lot.

Antonius

If you use server side queueing there's no microsecond between prone and break for them to stand in. Also, has anybody filed a BUG about the fact you can shieldstrike both before and after a combination? That doesn't seem like it's intended based on the AB file.

Addama

Antonius said:

If you use server side queueing there's no microsecond between prone and break for them to stand in. Also, has anybody filed a BUG about the fact you can shieldstrike both before and after a combination? That doesn't seem like it's intended based on the AB file.

Do you mean and, or do you mean or?  Shieldstrikes can be used any time without balance.  I don't think it's a bug.

Arador

Can it be used right before DSB? Because that could potentially be painful. 

Addama

Arador said:

Can it be used right before DSB? Because that could potentially be painful. 

No, that's the exception - you can't use it when an opponent is impaled.

I use it to prone instead of tripping, and during my prep to stick sensitivity.

Antonius

Addama said:

Antonius said:

If you use server side queueing there's no microsecond between prone and break for them to stand in. Also, has anybody filed a BUG about the fact you can shieldstrike both before and after a combination? That doesn't seem like it's intended based on the AB file.

Do you mean and, or do you mean or?  Shieldstrikes can be used any time without balance.  I don't think it's a bug.

I mean the fact that you can either shieldstrike/combination or combination/shieldstrike. You obviously can't shieldstrike/combination/shieldstrike.

The AB file states:

Once you have generated sufficient ferocity, you may unleash a devastating blow with your shield. This attack does not consume balance and may be followed with a standard combination attack.

That suggests to me that the intention is to be able to shieldstrike/combination, but not combination/shieldstrike. In practice it probably doesn't matter much either way.

Addama

Antonius said:

Addama said:

Antonius said:

If you use server side queueing there's no microsecond between prone and break for them to stand in. Also, has anybody filed a BUG about the fact you can shieldstrike both before and after a combination? That doesn't seem like it's intended based on the AB file.

Do you mean and, or do you mean or?  Shieldstrikes can be used any time without balance.  I don't think it's a bug.

I mean the fact that you can either shieldstrike/combination or combination/shieldstrike. You obviously can't shieldstrike/combination/shieldstrike.

The AB file states:

Once you have generated sufficient ferocity, you may unleash a devastating blow with your shield. This attack does not consume balance and may be followed with a standard combination attack.

That suggests to me that the intention is to be able to shieldstrike/combination, but not combination/shieldstrike. In practice it probably doesn't matter much either way.

I only ever use Shieldstrike/Combination.  I suppose the inverse means you can generate the ferocity needed for a Shieldstrike and then instantly Shieldstrike, but in practical terms it doesn't mean much (whether I Sensi/Sensi/Para or Sensi/Para/Sensi in one go doesn't change the outcome).

Antonius

You'd get your first shieldstrike one attack sooner, since you'd be able to slice, slice, slice, slice/shieldstrike, rather than having to slice, slice, slice, slice, shieldstrike/slice. After that, you're still going to be striking every fourth slice, unless you're not supposed to gain Ferocity immediately after expending it with Strike.

Xer

There are plenty of times when you might want to shieldstrike before a combination. As of right now you can shieldstrike whenever so long as you have ferocity, before or after, or even after 1 second break off of your last combination attack. It was like that during the test server time, and everyone was aware of it then, so it feels intentional to me.

Xinna

It was always like this, so I assume it's intentional. It does make a difference, because you can use the stun shieldstrike completely separate from your combo (for example, just before the enemy regains herb balance or focus balance, to delay a cure).

Trevize

Trey said:

Hasar said:

When can we stop the several action attacks in one go in retardation pls @Makarioshttps://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/561682c5

That's pretty strong, but it's not as if it's multiple commands. Combination goes all on one line with no breaks or ;s. You'd have to change how the command is input.

Not necessarily. I can't speak on whether it SHOULD be changed or not, but it should be relatively trivial for it to be split after input on the game-side (e.g. aliases already do that with double actions split with /)

Jules

So Ferocity is just neat, and in pragmatic terms, sword and shield is actually looking wonderfully promising, by the looks of this thread, but the big question I have right now based on the comments of Makarios and couple others, is whether the SoA (currently a "neutral" option per Makarios in terms of balance recovery) is going to be problematic based on some of the latest comments (i.e. people moving down to bucklers).  I'd love to buy an SoA (along with one of those artifact swords that are finally worth having), but I really do want to make sure it makes sense.  Also, it does seem that in general, longsword is really the only serious option?  

Arador

SoA still has a lot of value. If you want to min/max, then yes for speed, the buckler is the best. But if you do not mind losing 0.2 of a second, you can go SoA and get a massive defensive bonus for fighting artied damage dealers. Also, in raids, SoA will probably be the smarter option. You might not fight with it all the time but SoA is a wonderful investment for any Sword&Boarder.

Longsword is probably the best option, yes in 90% of the cases. A rend combo with a Broadsword/Tower is going to be a nice damage burst after a DSB. I have not tested the speed on Broadsword though for normal combat.

Addama

You're not going to be using Broadsword/Tower for anything except a raw damage burst, but I don't think that the benefit of .2 seconds balance outweighs the tremendous defensive benefit of an SoA.  It's a good call.

Calaurn

Addama said:

shieldstrike high/slice torso/smash for parry mitigation.

I am guessing the above is useful for stun. Here is what happened when I tried it:

You flash a longsword in front of the eyes of Melodie in a blur, then move forward to slash through her weakened defences.
The ferocity of battle drives you to yet greater heights.
You duck low and smash your shield into the knees of Melodie, causing them to buckle underneath her.
The ferocity of your blows renders any defence useless against you.
3654h, 3324m, 17161e, 14830w e|ckdb|10000|4||O|G|-
Melodie stands up.
3654h, 3324m, 17161e, 14830w e|ckdb|10000|4||O|G|-
You have recovered balance on all limbs.
3654h, 3324m, 17161e, 14830w ex|ckdb|10000|4||O|G|-
You spin in a quick circle, using the momentum to savagely strike the chin of Melodie with the edge of a tower shield.
Melodie exhales loudly.
You slice into the left leg of Melodie with a longsword.
Melodie parries the attack with a deft manoeuvre.
3654h, 3324m, 17158e, 14830w e|ckdb|10000|0||O|G|-
Melodie inhales and begins holding her breath.
3654h, 3324m, 17158e, 14830w e|ckdb|10000|0||O|G|-


Or does it work only for torso?

Shieldstrike <target> low/combination works to negate parry.

Addama

Huh, so stun doesn't bypass parry.  That seemed like a no-brainer at the time.

Yeah, Shieldstrike Low would do it.  Even for BMs, unless they literally predict that when you're going to Shieldstrike Low for the bypass, which seems unlikely/complicated.

Jovolo

Weird, I thought stun stopped parry. That may just be dodging that stun stops then, though I thought it was both tbh. 

Trey

I was thinking of keeping a buckler on me for fighting affliction classes/people I can easily soak the damage on for the speed boost, then swapping to SoA if I'm against someone with loldamage/group fights in raid defense.