Tradeskill split

Kresslack

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

This was already answered, including an example of how it will scale per tradeskill after the initial two.

Jovolo

I have to say Tecton, the number you've put as the cut-off for 100% tradein value on tradeskill artefacts seems very arbitrary from an outside point-of-view if there is indeed a further reason you decided upon this - if so, please elaborate. It doesn't affect me, but it seems very unfair. If anything, it makes more sense to give regular tradein value to people that purchased it within the last four months, because they would have known about impending tradeskill overhauls whereas those who purchased it prior to the announcements would have had absolutely no idea that their artefacts are being made redundant at the time of purchase. 

Conisdering each tradeskill is being split in two anyway, meaning it's going to require twice the investment to relearn should someone wish to do that, and that it's going to in practicality cost more than that because of the increasing scale on lesson requirement for transcendence that you implemented, the nicest thing you could do for your customers in such a situation is to provide everyone with a 100% tradein value on tradeskill artefacts. 

To all the people complaining about having to pay more to "relearn" their skills - they aren't your skills anymore. They're tradeskills, which is the point of removing them from classes. You're getting a new skill in return which you're attaining at a 1:1 value against your old tradeskills. It's a fair exchange, and you're essentially gaining as much as you lose.

Addama

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

You'll get back about 5200 lessons.  You'll have to spend about 1400 on the Enchantment variants, plus 1050 for tailoring, 1400 for jewelery, 1750 for inkmilling, 2100 for cooking, 2450 for gathering, plus 250 credits for the extra trade skills beyond the second.

So it'll cost you about 5050 lessons (did that math in my head, kick me if I'm wrong) plus 250 credits, which at a credit conversion rate of 8.5:1 comes out to about 850 credits to have things back where you had them.

I'm starting to see why a lot of non-comms are not too pleased with these changes.

Kyttin

@Tecton Question, when the Alchemists themselves came in, and you where forestal and your city chose to not keep forestals and go the Alchemist way, people where grandfathered in. Why not allow people to be grandfathered in NOW for these skill sets themselves, then if they change class or create a new character, THEN this,...thing, will take affect. So IE Someone has Tailoring, Jewellery, and their class skill, they end up keeping them, transed, but say a newbie who comes in, is going to have to build their character up to those? I, personally, think it would be the better route.

Tharvis

Kyttin said:

@Tecton Question, when the Alchemists themselves came in, and you where forestal and your city chose to not keep forestals and go the Alchemist way, people where grandfathered in. Why not allow people to be grandfathered in NOW for these skill sets themselves, then if they change class or create a new character, THEN this,...thing, will take affect. So IE Someone has Tailoring, Jewellery, and their class skill, they end up keeping them, transed, but say a newbie who comes in, is going to have to build their character up to those? I, personally, think it would be the better route.

this this and so much this.

Tecton

Daklore said:

@Tecton, regarding the refund point for rapier mastery, does this also come with the option to cash it in for the 100 lesson investment, or do we -have- to spend it on another mastery?

Also, regarding forging hammers, why does only the last four months get a 100% refund. Most of us in the past bought a forging hammer because a forging hammer was the only way to improve forging... now that it's no longer needed for that(unless forging still takes a ridiculous amount of time... in which case it shouldn't...), all users with forging hammers should have the option for 100% refund on their hammers. Just sayin'

Regarding fullplate, is it still going to have the ridiculous commodity costs that are currently associated with it, or is it(and hopefully fieldplate) getting a general cost reduction? Fullplate was always so expensive because it was no-decay... since it'll decay, as it costs now will be hard to stomach unless it provides a -massive- boost in defense over fieldplate. (also, can I plz haz my fullplate not decay? I never could think of anything to customize it with, now I'm going to lose out on not having a no-decay armour, which is why I have it :P)

They're good for another mastery, no plans for them to be able to be traded-in. You'll definitely need it for the new knight changes, since they take advantage of many different weapons!

Fullplate will still be expensive, yes. Fieldplate will be removed, since it's not really needed any more with fullplate no longer being bound to the forger.

Elazar

Here is my question: So I am now required to learn weaponmastery or I will not be able to do much in combat, right?

My issue is that I spent many credits in general skills I would not have...knowing that I must learn weaponmastery.  Now I gotta get another 1700 lessons (300cr) for combat?

Amarillys

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

So with the refund on each (non class) trade skill, you get back 3465 lessons.
So you learn your first two (we'll say inkmilling and gathering), that is about 1386 lessons total, leaving you with 2079 lessons from the refund.

You redeem your licenses, getting three slots free for them (as mentioned will hopefully be happening in a post before), and then you put in lessons, coming to a total of... 4157 lessons which means you will have to spend about an additional 2079 lessons at this point. 

Then 100 credits to gain your enchanting back as it's split in to two skills. 2079 for the first, 3119 for the second, coming to an additional 5198 lessons. Add that to the 2079 from before, you get 7277. Break that into credits, 1213 plus the 100 for permits, you are looking at an additional 1313 credits to get back to where you were in trade skills.

Daklore

Tecton said:

They're good for another mastery, no plans for them to be able to be traded-in. You'll definitely need it for the new knight changes, since they take advantage of many different weapons!

Fullplate will still be expensive, yes. Fieldplate will be removed, since it's not really needed any more with fullplate no longer being bound to the forger.

Yes, but what about individuals who either have all the weapon proficiencies, or have no interest in choosing another weapon? In my instance, I've already decided to stick with scimitars, regardless. And while I can spend it on another mastery, what about people who already -have- them all and can't spend the mastery? ... unless there's a new weapon type incoming...

Addama

Elazar said:

Here is my question: So I am now required to learn weaponmastery or I will not be able to do much in combat, right?

My issue is that I spent many credits in general skills I would not have...knowing that I must learn weaponmastery.  Now I gotta get another 1700 lessons (300cr) for combat?

If you had trans Forging (for Fullplate) then you won't have to spend a single lesson.

If you didn't trans Forging, you'll have to spend as many lessons on your class skills to be PVP-competent as most classes already had to, so this complaint is rather unfounded.

Trey

Daklore said:

Also, regarding forging hammers, why does only the last four months get a 100% refund. Most of us in the past bought a forging hammer because a forging hammer was the only way to improve forging... now that it's no longer needed for that(unless forging still takes a ridiculous amount of time... in which case it shouldn't...), all users with forging hammers should have the option for 100% refund on their hammers. Just sayin'

Still makes forging twice as fast,  which was the only genuine benefit (you could hit the same outlier stats without one). Disagree on the necessity of a refund, but I won't feel bad if they offer one. 

As for fullplate decaying,  it would be very nice for all existing suits of fullplate to be nondecay still, or at least give people who have trans forging one figurine in order to nondecay -one- suit. Some of us hadn't gotten a suit we were willing to blow our free customisation on, but now that stats are standardized there's no reason not to use it now.

Achimrst

Amarillys said:

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

So with the refund on each (non class) trade skill, you get back 3465 lessons.
So you learn your first two (we'll say inkmilling and gathering), that is about 1386 lessons total, leaving you with 2079 lessons from the refund.

You redeem your licenses, getting three slots free for them (as mentioned will hopefully be happening in a post before), and then you put in lessons, coming to a total of... 4157 lessons which means you will have to spend about an additional 2079 lessons at this point. 

Then 100 credits to gain your enchanting back as it's split in to two skills. 2079 for the first, 3119 for the second, coming to an additional 5198 lessons. Add that to the 2079 from before, you get 7277. Break that into credits, 1213 plus the 100 for permits, you are looking at an additional 1313 credits to get back to where you were in trade skills.

Can we get some @Sena math on this there are like two different answers @_@

Dji

Well, this sounds awesome. Can't wait to see the new changes. Kinda going to agree that I hope arties won't be significantly better than what you can forge though. I mean I have arties and can afford more arties, but they should be pay for an edge, not pay for a win.

Wayde

So basically Tecton what you're doing is more or less moving the mechanics of Aetolia over into Achaea?

I'm cool with the static weapons, but I wonder how will the new abilities that I got a *peek* at during Anarchaea will work with SoA? Will you be giving the SoA shield stats now? Or will it remain just the regular 15%? Furthermore how will you -not- be catering to those with disposable incomes for artifacts?

Seems to me like either you have mad skills with average weapons or you have weak skills with mad weapons.

What about those players that have mad skills(Not me) and mad weapons(also not me)? That seems like your trying to factor in player's combat/coding skills now and I don't think that's going to go over well..

The dynamic of forging was pretty much the only thing that leveled the playing field for those who don't have good skills. Now you're adjusting the artifact stats (down probably) from what people paid for so that you're making it more of an even playing field.

While you're at it why not just go ahead and bring in full weapon customisation like Aetolia? Least then you can substitute your lack of skill and disposable income with flashy shiny RPable weaponry? Oh wait...then people wouldn't have to -pay- for custom weapons.

My suggestion is that you include the ability to customize weapons -exclusively- not just artifact weapons. If you have to charge people 100 credits and make the weapon non-decay with normal weapon stats.

Addama

I'm assuming that people who already have licenses for trade skills won't have to repurchase the licenses, as Tecton said on a previous page, and it sounds like Amarillys is assuming (perhaps correctly, I didn't gloss over all of Tecton's posts on the subject) that they will not be refunded for all licenses.

E: I'm also assuming that you'll get a better lesson refund than what Amarillys is assuming.

E2: Basically, I have a conservative estimate, Amarillys has a liberal estimate, and by these estimates, a player like Veldrin would have to shell out between $270 and $400 to have things back to the way they were. 

Elazar

Addama said:

Elazar said:

Here is my question: So I am now required to learn weaponmastery or I will not be able to do much in combat, right?

My issue is that I spent many credits in general skills I would not have...knowing that I must learn weaponmastery.  Now I gotta get another 1700 lessons (300cr) for combat?

If you had trans Forging (for Fullplate) then you won't have to spend a single lesson.

If you didn't trans Forging, you'll have to spend as many lessons on your class skills to be PVP-competent as most classes already had to, so this complaint is rather unfounded.

This complaint is that I wouldnt have trans'ed riding/tattoos yet and would have trans my third class skill...but since I didnt need to forge, I spent my lessons in tattoos/riding.

[edit]
what I am trying to say is I would have rather learned riding/tattoos via creditsales and bashing. and I would have trans'ed weaponmastery before starting such.

Veldrin

Addama said:

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

You'll get back about 5200 lessons.  You'll have to spend about 1400 on the Enchantment variants, plus 1050 for tailoring, 1400 for jewelery, 1750 for inkmilling, 2100 for cooking, 2450 for gathering, plus 250 credits for the extra trade skills beyond the second.

So it'll cost you about 5050 lessons (did that math in my head, kick me if I'm wrong) plus 250 credits, which at a credit conversion rate of 8.5:1 comes out to about 850 credits to have things back where you had them.

I'm starting to see why a lot of non-comms are not too pleased with these changes.

Yah thanks, ugh (also 4950 according to the values you gave). Yeah I dislike the way this is done

Trey

Daklore said:

Tecton said:

They're good for another mastery, no plans for them to be able to be traded-in. You'll definitely need it for the new knight changes, since they take advantage of many different weapons!

Fullplate will still be expensive, yes. Fieldplate will be removed, since it's not really needed any more with fullplate no longer being bound to the forger.

Yes, but what about individuals who either have all the weapon proficiencies, or have no interest in choosing another weapon? In my instance, I've already decided to stick with scimitars, regardless. And while I can spend it on another mastery, what about people who already -have- them all and can't spend the mastery? ... unless there's a new weapon type incoming...

If you already have all proficiency types, just use your token to get rapier back. It's not as if you don't have other useless proficiencies if you have shit like club or mace.

Edit: Meletus told me there were no new weapons being introduced. 

Trey

Veldrin said:

Addama said:

Veldrin said:

so I got enchantment, tailoring, jewellery, inkmilling, cooking, gathering all trans. How many additional lessons/credits am I gonna have to spend to have my character's skills remain as I liked them?

You'll get back about 5200 lessons.  You'll have to spend about 1400 on the Enchantment variants, plus 1050 for tailoring, 1400 for jewelery, 1750 for inkmilling, 2100 for cooking, 2450 for gathering, plus 250 credits for the extra trade skills beyond the second.

So it'll cost you about 5050 lessons (did that math in my head, kick me if I'm wrong) plus 250 credits, which at a credit conversion rate of 8.5:1 comes out to about 850 credits to have things back where you had them.

I'm starting to see why a lot of non-comms are not too pleased with these changes.

Yah thanks, ugh (also 4950 according to the values you gave). Yeah I dislike the way this is done

Good news, though. Years ago you bitched about the lessons from Elite building up if you were already omnitrans. Problem solved!

Herenicus

...b-but we were saving those for multiclass

Amarillys

Addama said:

I'm assuming that people who already have licenses for trade skills won't have to repurchase the licenses, as Tecton said on a previous page, and it sounds like Amarillys is assuming (perhaps correctly, I didn't gloss over all of Tecton's posts on the subject) that they will not be refunded for all licenses.

E: I'm also assuming that you'll get a better lesson refund than what Amarillys is assuming.

E2: Basically, I have a conservative estimate, Amarillys has a liberal estimate, and by these estimates, a player like Veldrin would have to shell out between $270 and $400 to have things back to the way they were. 

I'm assuming my lesson numbers off what Tecton said, "200% of the base (1386 lessons)" I divided that by 2 to get my lesson count for each skillset. You won't get a refund for enchanting, so you just get the five refunds, making it 3465 lessons you get back. You get all your licenses back and Tecton suggested that using those licenses will get you free slots so I assume you get 5 free slots, effectively, and have to pay for 2 (100 cr) Then everything went on from there.

Herenicus

There's no returning to the way they were, in the sense that omni-tradeskill'd individuals will form a more exclusive club than they had previously. Whether it is worth $300 to slip behind the velvet rope is on the individual.

Trey

Oh, I actually have a fantastic question - now that stats are standardized,  @Tecton‌, will we be able to non-decay/reset normal forged goods now?

Kresslack

Trey said:

Daklore said:

Also, regarding forging hammers, why does only the last four months get a 100% refund. Most of us in the past bought a forging hammer because a forging hammer was the only way to improve forging... now that it's no longer needed for that(unless forging still takes a ridiculous amount of time... in which case it shouldn't...), all users with forging hammers should have the option for 100% refund on their hammers. Just sayin'

Still makes forging twice as fast,  which was the only genuine benefit (you could hit the same outlier stats without one). Disagree on the necessity of a refund, but I won't feel bad if they offer one. 

As for fullplate decaying,  it would be very nice for all existing suits of fullplate to be nondecay still, or at least give people who have trans forging one figurine in order to nondecay -one- suit. Some of us hadn't gotten a suit we were willing to blow our free customisation on, but now that stats are standardized there's no reason not to use it now.

This. I've lugged my fullplate around for years now, as a memento to keep on (was going to pass it along to one of the spawn eventually).

Edit: Forgot to tag you in my question regarding Milking/Toxiology/Loki's tear amulet: @Tecton.

Wayde

Trey said:

Oh, I actually have a fantastic question - now that stats are standardized,  @Tecton‌, will we be able to non-decay/reset normal forged goods now?

That was pretty much my suggestion. I tend to ramble though and I guess meaning gets lost in translation.

Addama

In praise of these changes: Forging was a terrible, awful, no-good skill that existed to punish an otherwise ambitious group of players for believing they might be luckier than average.

I'm probably going to drop some money on the new Armor/Weapon forging skills because of the customization perks.  Speaking of which:

@Tecton, if we had pre-existing scripts triggered by generic weapon descriptions (e.g. "an ornate steel rapier") will we have to totally change the trigger lines to adapt for custom weapon descriptions, or will attack messages retain the generic descriptions?

Veldrin

Tharvis said:

Kyttin said:

@Tecton Question, when the Alchemists themselves came in, and you where forestal and your city chose to not keep forestals and go the Alchemist way, people where grandfathered in. Why not allow people to be grandfathered in NOW for these skill sets themselves, then if they change class or create a new character, THEN this,...thing, will take affect. So IE Someone has Tailoring, Jewellery, and their class skill, they end up keeping them, transed, but say a newbie who comes in, is going to have to build their character up to those? I, personally, think it would be the better route.

this this and so much this.

Yeah, I'd prefer if you could get your current skills grandfathered in, rather than having to shell out additional lessons/credits just to get back what we had

Lisbethae

@Tecton‌

If I'm doing this right, I will need to pay about $300 in credits to remain at the same skill level I am currently. (trans in one class skill that is turning to 2 trades, and trans in 5 trades)

Is that about right?

Austere

I believe it was asked before and skipped over,  but what about canvas in ink milling? Will it just be moved to tattoos.

 Also,  bloodboil was nerfed because magi had the best passive healing in game with purity. Will purity be relocated to crystalism/new skill, or is bloodboil going to have timer reduced?  Honestly,  I am fine with either,  but magi have so little hinder that if we can't out damage an affliction class,  we are screwed. @Seragorn‌ still walks over me in 24 seconds with me just healing (not wasting equilibrium on other things),  and I whore bloodboil and tree like nobody's business. 

Suladan

A suggestion: Instead of automatically transing the 3rd skill that's being replaced, why don't you just give the person the lessons? Some people that aren't combatants might not care if they have the 3rd skill, but getting the lessons out of that will help in defraying the cost of re-learning all the trade skills they -do- want. And if people want the third skill then they just spend half an hour learning it with the lessons they get. Gives the guy the option rather than deciding for them.