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Blademaster Buff/nerf Discussion.
Caladbolg
Campbell County TN
in Blademaster
This Discussion is for reasonable buff/nerfs that the class needs, or ideas that change other abilities or a need for new abilities
Also please keep in mind, that everyone thinks differently and instead of saying something along the lines of "LOL UR RETARDED" Instead explain our reasoning with said person of why something is a bad idea. Because let's be honest, I don't think anyone 100% understands every single ability in the game. or how it directly/indirectly effects the games balance.
I'll start off with, Shin Phoniex is kinda overpowered. The reason I say this (while I may be incorrect) I'm pretty sure the -only- way to stop it is to prone, with that being said it's not easy for many affliction classes to prone without losing major affliction stacks, which can easily prevent the blademaster from getting locked, While yes 75 Shin is a high amount of shin. I feel the shin amount is in the right area. I suggest making Shin Phoenix have a cooldown of a few minutes (I'm thinking two?) to prevent the Blademaster from just reaquiring shin and laughing in the face of afflictions.
And Blademaster Accuracy I feel needs to be buffed, I believe that Thyr stances accuracy bonus should be increased slightly to compensate for this fact. while I understand I shouldn't be able to hit a dex serpent with weaving and mounted with the limb's resetting at 3 minutes it's extremely possible to have legs set before you are able to prep for another one.
Also please keep in mind, that everyone thinks differently and instead of saying something along the lines of "LOL UR RETARDED" Instead explain our reasoning with said person of why something is a bad idea. Because let's be honest, I don't think anyone 100% understands every single ability in the game. or how it directly/indirectly effects the games balance.
I'll start off with, Shin Phoniex is kinda overpowered. The reason I say this (while I may be incorrect) I'm pretty sure the -only- way to stop it is to prone, with that being said it's not easy for many affliction classes to prone without losing major affliction stacks, which can easily prevent the blademaster from getting locked, While yes 75 Shin is a high amount of shin. I feel the shin amount is in the right area. I suggest making Shin Phoenix have a cooldown of a few minutes (I'm thinking two?) to prevent the Blademaster from just reaquiring shin and laughing in the face of afflictions.
And Blademaster Accuracy I feel needs to be buffed, I believe that Thyr stances accuracy bonus should be increased slightly to compensate for this fact. while I understand I shouldn't be able to hit a dex serpent with weaving and mounted with the limb's resetting at 3 minutes it's extremely possible to have legs set before you are able to prep for another one.
2
Comments
I don't know, something about a class that's partially, if not entirely centered on prepping limbs having access to evade...
It seems like the class is basically designed to slow prep people, which is something I thought basically everyone hates.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with serpent evade, but something's gotta give with BMs. Not sure why they got Evade in the first place, would make far more sense to give them Leap.
I am speaking from first-hand experience when I say that a BM who knows what they're doing is 100% unkillable in 1v1 combat, provided they don't make play errors. Between Evade, Healthtrans, ManaTrans, Phoenix, Alleviate, Lifevision, Hamstring, and prone parry, they have hard counters to virtually every possible kill technique, and can simply hamstring/evade to neutralize any and all momentum, while retaining their prep. Personally, I think whoever designed it was good at identifying weaknesses of the class, but went way overboard on what abilities were needed to counter them.
I also know from personal experience that as any class that can't slow prep right back, (and most that can), it's basically impossible to kill a BM, unless they straight up refuse to evade. Once they start evading, it's basically impossible to chase them without losing all momentum (and rites), and even if you do, they can simple hamstring and evade away, and you have zero chance of keeping up. I know this definitely applies to many other classes as well.
Re: Phoenix: Yes, cooldown of like, 5-10 minutes, would be adequate. It's basically a soulcage/mog against affliction classes that can be used as many times as you like. Dumb.
Re: Accuracy : Definitely needs buffed, or dodging needs to be capped. Personally, I think dodging just needs to be capped. BM isn't the only class that suffers from this, although it is probably the worst.
LoS: Give them access to Archery, give them Leap, and remove Evade.
One suggestion I plan on classleading is having Hypersight show evade direction, however this really won't do much to impact Blademaster's ability to just slow prep their way to quad breaks without having to actually engage in combat.
Another potential classlead is having certain afflictions affect Evade (and Leap), such as Weariness and Dizziness.
Since last year, we've added two abilities to the game that temporarily stop evade, and unless BMs lose it for something more balanced (Leap), I think a few classes could use similar abilities.
On dodging, I think there's a ton of opportunity to use afflictions to prevent dodging that most BMs never bother using. 80% of BMs I fight use basically just loop:
prep legs
(sometimes) prep arms
void/para/impale/impaleslash
(sometimes) arm breaks
leg breaks
impale/twist/bstar
Win (or rage because it didn't work)
There are numerous ways to stop BMs who only do this, one of which being dodging. However, by incorporating some of BM's insanely powerful and mostly untapped affliction potential, I think most people will find that they can beat things like Tumble, Parry, and dodging.
With that said, affliction combat revolves around pommelstrike, which honestly needs a massive accuracy increase (or again, cap dodging).
Blademasters already get access to Leap.
I think you are over playing the evade away slow prep. With 3 minute limb times, rebounding, shield, reflect and lyre it is extremely easy to turtle up and not even allow your legs to get broken. I can't tell you how many times I've fought someone to get their legs and arms prepped and have them reset because I can't stick impaleslash in time. Even if I do everyone runs or uses the above to become a fortress of razing.
I don't think taking evade away is fair, I think making more things affect it is. More people should use lethargy, that makes Evade nearly useless because of the balance time.
There are counters to ever BM ability, people just think you're supposed to stand in room and let them wail on you with their str spec lvl 3 everything arties doing 35% per round.
If you take Evade, then you need to either upgrade our Armour to splint or allow us to use an SoA. BM is so papery.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Deal.
In general, I think Evade is totally fine for serpent, because when a serpent evades away, the serpent loses all of their momentum in a fight, making it more or less a reset.
The problem with BM is that they can reset whenever they want, without losing almost any momentum.
@Atalkez The dodging/prep argument is also silly, because it doesn't apply to 95% of the playerbase. BMs prep Ernam in like 20 seconds, every time. There's only one class in the game that can spec Dex and use Weaving, lets focus on the other 16.
The other thing, as I already mentioned, is that there's simply no way to stop Evade, for a lot of classes. As a priest, for example, the only form of hindrance we have at all is a single leg break (thanks to zero static parry bypass), which buys us a whopping 3-4 seconds of hindrance, during which we have enough time to use a single ability before they stand and evade. All of our kills revolve around momentum, and for the most part, require Inquisition, or some form of mana spike setup, all of which are easy to see coming, and require at least 10 seconds of investment. Nothing in priest or other class skills allows us, even up the the very second we absolve or attempt to kill with damage, to prevent Evade. The best option we have provides 3 seconds of hindrance, which means that the BM has to be essentially suicidal to die, ever.
Pretty much every other class is fine*, as they are affected by Piety and sometimes Dizziness, but niether of these apply to Blademaster. Serpent can also do this, but at the expense of their momentum, as well as ours. Leap is fine, because it respects the various forms of hindrance, but still gives Blademaster the mobility it needs to hit and run within reason, without given them the option of completely one-sided fights.
And make no mistake, this is -definitely- not just a priest problem.
* Except for puppet/doll travel
Any class that can cast reflections can shut down my entire offense for the duration of a leg reset, easily.
Any person that buys a lyre, can again shut down my entire offense for the duration of a leg reset, because who doesn't have a sip health/eat potash/strum lyre alias now-a-days?
If you are getting prepped that fast, your not using parry effectively. Airfist is only a chance to negate parry, and is in no way able to be figured out on a percent basis. If you see airfist, switch your parry to something else. It will waste the BMs time. I'm not going to give you every tactical way to defeat my prep, but there are ways to make it take an amazingly long time.
Your missing the mark on Evade, there are plenty of ways to make it a non factor. Regardless of what you say, me evading out is just as detrimental to me as it is to you. While BM may be a prep class, we rely 100% on momentum to win. If I can't get an impaleslash stuck before breaking your limbs, there is no point in even breaking them limbs because I wont get bleeding high enough for my kill. It is easy for you to run on every pre-impaleslash until it resets, which makes legs very likely to reset too at that point. If you are running every time, then I have to prep more than legs. If I break head/torso/arm/arm you can just walk out before I break legs, making the entire process wasted.
Sure Evade is annoying, but lets not be foolish and think that this ability is the only reason Blademasters are successful or fail. That's asinine. Like I said earlier, stick lethargy and I wont evade until its cured. It adds nearly a full second and a half to the balance of Evade. Can't evade while paralysed, prone, entangled, webbed, etc. Just because you don't want to figure out how to chain your class abilities to be effective against the one, doesn't mean that one should be nerfed. That's not how this works.
Also, serpents don't lose all of their momentum what are you talking about. They can seal their hypno and evade away, come back, dstab four times and snap like they never missed a beat. I feel like your losing to BM's, can't figure out why, and your trying to get the class nerfed to compensate. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Evade makes the class fun to play, and gives you a way to actually gtfo when your papery ass if getting shrekt (because it happens all the time, and I've even got arties to supplement, unartied BM is a joke). Also, it ties the class to the ninja-RP better than any other ability. I -should- be quick and efficient, and I -should- be able to move about with only small amount of hindrance, that's kind of the point.
Also the ability OBSERVE, is very handy. Should look into it.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Idk how a priest dies to a blademaster, tbh. Sure, the BM is slightly more difficult to kill than classes without evade, but certainly possible if you get clever, and the priest should never really be in danger.
You just can't fight it the same as every other class. I don't think I've ever lost to a BM as priest.
Though, apostate/alchemist may be in worse positions. I still think something like dizziness should affect evade.
I never said I had a problem not dying to BM offense, and avoidance of BM kill strategies has nothing to do with the topic of my discussion regarding BM defense.
While firstly, I disagree completely that BM requires momentum to prep limbs (it only requires momentum for the kill sequence, but absolutely none for slow prepping, which is why it's called "slow prepping"). The problem with this is that you can easily complete a prep, hamstring/evade out, completely resetting your afflictions, before commencing kill setups, and negating the entire offense of most classes.
Monks and Knights are OK, because they can just slow prep you back, and can chase with JPK/Lunge. They also don't typically care that much if they have to chase you around, because the classes are designed to do so.
Other than Monk/Knight, and perhaps another class or two, nobody else has a chance of killing a BM who is determined to slow prep, because there's simply no way to stop them from legslash/hamstring, evade, repeat, until you're ready for a kill setup.
No other class in the game can do that, and none should.
On another note, regarding parry, I have no flipping clue what you are talking about. It's insanely easy to quad prep, against anything other than lulz dodge, which is extremely rare and only viable for a single class. BM prepping is significantly faster than knight, has multiple parry bypass abilities to help make it even easier.
I played the class, man... I don't know who you're trying to kid. BM prep is fast, incredibly easy, and unstoppable. While the kill sequence might be difficult to pull off correctly against a smart opponent, the PREP process is not that difficult, except, again, vs. serpents. (see: my suggestion for a dodge cap)
Lastly, why the heck do you keep on repeating "use lethargy", as if it's an affliction that more than a small handful of classes can give (and even fewer, on command).
You played BM for what a month to finish your counter? I never saw you legitimately 1v1 as BM, so I doubt your knowledge is as good as you seem to think. That's my opinion.
With the accuracy issues, rebounding, affliction rate of other classes, shield etc, I've been outprepped before. This is more than "one class".
Smart parry tactics has and will always be something to slow down the prep, and as stated above there are plenty of times/ways to force a BM to struggle with prep.
Maybe I fight smarter people on a more consistent basis but I rarely get kills as easily as you make it out to be.
Interested to see @Mizik thoughts.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Knights have been acknowledged as broken and a revision is already in the works. Dunno if it resolves things but I'd be surprised if their prep is still awful after the revision, or even much worse than BM prep. Can a knight beta-tester confirm my suspicions?
I quit BM because it was insanely overpowered. Brokenstar setups are ridiculously easy to pull off, truelocks are even more ridiculously easy to pull off, and you're virtually unkillable if you know how to recognize incoming kill sequences and respond with evade/phoenix/fitness/alleviate appropriately.
Yes, it lacks damage mitigation, but that more or less ignorable with some basic artefacts and just evading away for a sip or two. If you're going for Brokenstar kill, you can easily just evade/sip and lose absolutely nothing, and if you're going for a lock, you will almost never have to worry about health because void/para/prone is going to screw them up way too hard to attack you.
@Atalkez
Please don't assume that just because we didn't fight (you weren't active at the time), that I don't know what I'm talking about. Also please don't assume that I don't have another character that's a tri-trans'd active BM combatant. In all of our fights with you as a Blademaster, I've yet to see you ever A ) win or B ) use any form of even basic affliction combat. I'd be far more inclined to say that you fail to understand the potential of the class. Regardless, please respond with actual arguments, not "You suck at BM", as was requested by the OP.
In general, I'd really like you to enlighten us on all these ways to slow BM prep, because, like I mentioned, it has access to multiple ways to directly bypass parry, and can prep limbs about 3-4 times faster than Knights, who don't have any form of parry bypass (abilities).
edit: Since @Atalkez can't seem to think of something to say other than "LOL", someone back this up. @Aelios, @Caladbolg?
On the test server, prepping wasn't that much faster, if faster at all, on the 3 of the 4 types I got around to testing. It's a little better thanks to the new stat distribution on weapons and changes to the artefact stats, but still required the same general amount of hits to prep limbs. Dual Blunt was of course considerably faster, but doesn't have DSB etc, so kindof bad as a comparison.
I'm sure there are more changes in the works though.
Seriously though, people need a reality check. BMs have some of the best limb prepping in the game, and some of the most powerful abilities to capitalize on breaks in the game as well. As Ernam I never needed more than about 20 seconds to prep per pair of limbs, even before accuracy upgrades. This isn't a matter of skill, it's simply that BM's have an ability to virtually ignore parry, can do limb damage to opposite-limbs that are currently being parried, and they can also do about 30-45% (total) of a limb's health per attack. That's more than monk combos, (and by extension, everything else), and is significantly faster per attack.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Your response was almost entirely made up of personal attacks and completely misguided logic. Requiring 8 seconds before you can attack, for example. Implying that chasing a Blademaster is viable. Continuing to imply that BM prep is somehow difficult (still refusing to actually argue my rational explanation of why it's incredibly easy). You seem to be assuming that you're fighting an opponent who is doing nothing but shield/rebounding/reflect. You're just being silly.
"You're wrong because you aren't friends with the forum "gurus"" is probably my favorite argument regarding class balance mechanics I've seen yet.
I find your entire attitude and stance midly offensive, particularly because I know for a fact that while I might not have been the "greatest blademaster ever", I did extremely well at it, and one nearly 100% of my 1v1 encounters, including spars, ranked and unranked. I truelocked. I true-locked 5-10 (non-"Targ-alt") players on my first day, including Jinsun 2 hours after I embraced class. I never died to anything other than grossly outrageous group scenarios, due to hamstring/evade - particularly to priests who have absolutely no way of tracking you, chasing you, or hindering you, a trick you seem to have not been able to figure out, considering you've died to my smite, completely unhindered, about 6-8 times in the last week.
If you want to try to win combat balance arguments using the "I'm way better at my class than you because I've been the class longer, so you're automatically wrong", you're going to have to try it on someone else. You're a good fighter, but you're nowhere close to Blademaster's potential yet.
BM can actually bypass parry 100% of the time, using a slew of affliction-based setups (the most obvious being void/para, post-balance knees, and a few others), but lets set that aside.
First of all, almost everyone static parries. Static parry is extremely easy to deal with by simply legslashing (using legs as an example) the other leg, which deals damage to both (including the parried limb). Against static parry, this hits 100% of the time, dodging aside (because most people, honestly, don't dodge TwoArts that much - I dodge maybe 15%).
Against people who don't static parry, well, that obviously opens them up to you simply noting their parry strategy (an automated feature of Manda, and probably other trackers), which assuming they don't just parry random limbs, typically leads to 100% chance of hitting a non-parried limb, again ignoring dodging.
In the rare event that someone randomly parries, or "manually" randomly parries, then airfist is a great option, which combined with legslash hitting both legs, still has a 75% chance of hitting (50% chance to parry one of two limbs). 75% is still pretty damn good.
Lastly, you also need to realize that torso/head breaks as a BM are really valuable, particularly since you can hamstring to prevent running on non-prone breaks. Thus, if someone decides to static parry legs, or alternate legs, they're completely openening themselves up to more 0% parry chance arm/centre slashes, which can directly lead to a BM winning.
At the end of the day, BM offense doesn't really give two shits about parry. I know this, because I played BM extensively (and wrote two highly complex systems for it that dozens of people use), and during my time as a Blademaster I didn't give two shits about parry.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Tbf, @Mizik shamelessly desires for BM to be/stay OP. See: his classleads. (not an insult, love MIzik)
By hitting Airfist, and slashing until it finally goes through you are basically ignoring it.
Just like monks hitting roundhouse/throwing axe curare to ignore it.
Or knights dsling curare/prefarar to ignore it.
The airfist might not work, you just keep at it.
The round house might miss, you just keep at it.
They might not die to damage you just cry and wait fight knight changes.
---
And for everything else, this is why we can't have nice things.
And just my two cents but pre-impaleslash is one of the weaker ways to kill someone as a bm.
Yes, it works, alot but so did cleave. Bm is strong because of how lack-luster peoples knowledge is in countering it and all the different methods you can use to obtain your goal.
Carry on. /bm
I can have 15 affs on a BM and still not have a single thing that stops evade, aside from the aforementioned single leg break, which buys you precisely nothing.
With a smooth lunge to the left, Atalranbolg draws Wannabe Ninja from its scabbard and delivers a powerful slash across your legs.
4950, (100%), 55%w- (08:44:52.642)
You detect nothing here by that name.
Nothing can be seen hereby that name.
I do not recognize anything called that here.
[SLC] Warning, all your freaking limbs are prepped!
farsee &tar (he's two east and shielded, spamming alleviate)
e (bitch please, you're hamstringed)
*sigh* There went 20% WP.
Like Priest.
It's just an example. I rarely get more than 3-4 before a BM vanishes into thin air.
Or Priest needs nerf.
I can be honest in saying i've not played priest in.. over 6 years, but they always seem to be able to clot endless amounts of bleeding with impaleslash up. Which might honestly just be a rite fucking with me. Other wise no, Priest has nothing to kill bm with that evade /mana trans/health trans can't handle. (course mistakes can always be made)