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Classleads September 2014

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  • SynbiosSynbios
    Just curious here: Not being a shaman combatant/non-combatant, what exactly did those changes do that made Shaman terrible?

  • CynlaelCynlael
    He never said you weren't. He said your opinion is wrong.
    * SWIFTCURSE equilibrium cost has been reduced.
    * SWIFTCURSE is no longer a timed defence. It will now affect the Shaman's next 10 curses.
    * Skull pendants now extend the number of curses that SWIFTCURSE augments by 2/4/6 (L1/2/3).
    * BREACH is now unaffected by SWIFTCURSE and does not count towards its charges.
    * HAEMOPHILIA has been added to the skill.
    * DISCERN has been added to the skill.

    * IMBIBE will no longer do damage to/awaken the target.

    All of these are buffs, except maybe Breach not being included in what's affected.

    The only "nerf" I guess, would be the fact you can't swiftcurse blighted curses anymore... And if you relied on those to win, you're probably not a very good Shaman in the first place.

    @Synbios: Nothing. They're all positive changes. Arti arguably got devalued a bit, but other than that they're all good. I think the only thing that needs adjusting, is CURSE <x> BLEED while hunting... the amount of curses it takes to kill makes the WP drain very... Bad... 14 int, lv 88 with trans philo, could barely clear Moghedu before I was out of willpower. Had enough leftover to kill... Maybe Taryen in Quartz Peak.

  • CynlaelCynlael
    edited October 2014
    So. Why was the increase of EQ cost on Elementalism REFLECTION not included in any of the Announce posts? :|
     -(Almost 3 seconds now with quick-witted)-

  • MakariosMakarios
    Oops, that'd be my falt. Must have left it off the list. We'll add it to the next post!
  • AlaskarAlaskar
    So reflection is nerfed, and bloodboil nerfed. Sweet.  I feel like bloodboil, while perhaps a bit OP, is one of the things that gave Magi an edge in retardation combat. Now any affliction class can more than likely wreck us by dropping a few afflictions on us in retard, as retardation relies mostly on who gets the first hit or stacks the quickest afflictions. At least from my perspective.

    Reflections probably needed a nerf, but at the same time I don't think they really slow down people all that bad. While they allow us to slowly prep, it's worth mentioning that the thing we're prepping for is easily escaped, failing a lucky proc with a few key vibes. Also, the shortened timer on limbs means turtling is much less of an option now. But hey, plague lasts longer and ring is now viable in combat, so we have that going for us.

  • JukilianJukilian
    edited October 2014
    Hinder people so you can get the first hit in retardation.

    As for how, there are a few different ways one could try. I long for the day that Retardation isn't needed as much.
  • ErnamErnam
    Now magi have to do more than randomly spam ret on vibes and hope RNG hands them free victories (and if not, rinse and repeat)?

    Heart-wrenching.
  • VaehlVaehl
    Jukilian said:
    I long for the day that Retardation isn't needed as much.
    Why? You want magi combat to be about arties and spamming staffcasts and stormhammers with frozen ground (lol) in the room and ensure the class has no fun mechanics?
  • JukilianJukilian
    Vaehl said: 
    Jukilian said:
    I long for the day that Retardation isn't needed as much.
    Why? You want magi combat to be about arties and spamming staffcasts and stormhammers with frozen ground (lol) in the room and ensure the class has no fun mechanics?
    If that is really all you took from my comment, I have nothing more to say.
  • VaehlVaehl
    Thats why I'm asking for clarification?
  • AlaskarAlaskar
    Ernam said:
    Now magi have to do more than randomly spam ret on vibes and hope RNG hands them free victories (and if not, rinse and repeat)?

    Heart-wrenching.
    That's still exactly what it boils down to. A few breaks and dropping retard hoping you kill them before they tumble to monolith

  • IocunIocun
    I wish retardation disabled monoliths in adjacent rooms and I'm not even a magi.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • BluefBluef Delos
    Cynlael said:
    * SWIFTCURSE equilibrium cost has been reduced.
    Everyone likes lower EQ costs. But EQ wasn't a problem identified by anyone in past classleads or forum conversations. I guess this is something the ACC thought was needed, but the reduction is negligible for people who were already prepped with an eq-lessening artefact. Definitely not worth losing the ability to blight curses.

    * SWIFTCURSE is no longer a timed defence. It will now affect the Shaman's next 10 curses.
    Sort of cool, but it wasn't broken before - plus people could curse more than 10 curses with swiftcurse before so...how is this better if we're cursing fewer times before putting swiftcurse back up again?

    * Skull pendants now extend the number of curses that SWIFTCURSE augments by 2/4/6 (L1/2/3).
    I used to be able to swiftcurse nearly 20 blights. Now I can only send 13 curses. Not a buff IMO.

    * BREACH is now unaffected by SWIFTCURSE and does not count towards its charges.
    Not a buff. Not anything really. Breach is what it is. 

    * HAEMOPHILIA has been added to the skill.
    Could be cool, but again we already had health leech and because now we can't blight curses in swift this is sure to be auto-healed anyway. If the goal was to make this class more interesting to newbies and midbies removing blights from the swiftcursing ability is counterproductive as a whole. 

    * DISCERN has been added to the skill.
    So now we can tell how well people are clotting and pretty much auto-avoiding inflame. Awesome! By the way, although you couldn't see the exact bleeding numbers before it was pretty darn easy to probe your doll or assess someone to see whether they were taking heavily bleeding damage.

    * IMBIBE will no longer do damage to/awaken the target.
    This is pretty awesome, I'll admit - but also way overdue. It was supposed to be looked at a year ago. Sorry I'm not more impressed by it finally getting changed.
    The only "nerf" I guess, would be the fact you can't swiftcurse blighted curses anymore... And if you relied on those to win, you're probably not a very good Shaman in the first place.

    I could probably post 50 comments in previous threads from people in the ACC talking about how shaman have more than one way to kill someone and pointing to the strategy of stringing curses and blights together to achieve that. Without the ability to blight in swiftcurse, only time will tell if that's still a viable strategy.

    For the record, I never use straight blighted curses to kill anyone (because locks are possible and a much more surer way to kill someone). I'm not a huge combatant but I've played the class for over 10 years. In other words, I'm not a complete newb to its PvP.

    People who are combatants on other classes telling midbies who play this class all the time that these are boons doesn't make them positive or automatically accepted as positive.     I see weaknesses and problems with these supposedly positive changes. Disagree with it if you want but at least discuss the facts mentioned above when you do so.



  • AtalkezAtalkez
    edited October 2014
    @Bluef you are acting like no one but you knows how Shaman works. Everyone in the ACC earned their spot based on their overall knowledge of classes. I'm sure Makarios and Motori had quite a big influence in what changed and didn't. 

    Tl;dr quit complaining about it because everyone that has a reputation for knowing class mechanics has told you the changes are great. Go back to the drawing board and figure something out about it. You're going to force someone to go Shaman,  lock Santar Jhui and Tanris in a 3v1 and make you look foolish. Just chill girl.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • HasarHasar
    Fight someone with new shaman. Log it. Post it? Seems strong to me.

  • DunnDunn
    I'm really tempted by it actually. I enjoyed it when I played it ~2009


  • SynbiosSynbios
    Curious statement: Mention of "For the record, I never use straight blighted curses to kill anyone (because locks are possible and a much more surer way to kill someone)." after assertion of disappointment over being unable to swiftcurse blights. Implication: Since you never use blighted curses to cure, why would the change to swiftcurse's interaction with blight be of concern to you?

    Precedent: You have shown much concern in terms of wanting to improve/change Shaman combat.
    Observation: Recent classlead season does not show suggestions made by you. Inquiry: Why?


  • VaehlVaehl
    Don't really have the time to explain why Shaman is strong but I'd like to point out some more obvious things. Having swiftcurse speed up x curses makes it easier to use in groups, and other situations because you can put it up until it needs to be used instead of spamming it until a rush or having it wear off at bad times. As well, there's no way you can send "13 curses" with the artie because each level adds 2. You probably looked at the L1/2/3 part and assumed that that is what it is increased by. The breach change is so you can't just break the only defense against curses way faster that it can be put up. It provides a defense from kill combos that pretty much completely bypass shield. Don't see how haemophilia has anything to do with healthleech other than them both being afflictions cured by herbs and starting with the letter h. Shaman is in a good position and the skill cap isn't even close to being reached yet. Kinda cool if you think of all the untapped potential it has.
  • CooperCooper
    If I wouldn't have to buy credits to get the swiftcurse artie I'd already be a Shaman. So incredibly strong right now.

  • XerXer Langley
    edited October 2014
    I want to be Shaman again T_T But too many arties that would go to waste if I did #artiewhoreproblems

    EDIT: I've been itching to go back Shaman since Vodun Cripple proned people >.> Everything else, minus the blight + swiftcurse nerf even more so. That's an obvious nerf, and I do think Blight + Swiftcurse (esp in it's new form) is strong, but definitely not -necessary- for any kind of kill outside of completely unaware people.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
  • SantarSantar
    edited October 2014
    I've played Shaman class quite a bit too. The assumption that nobody knows how Shaman works is pretty incorrect.

    There were some small balancing factors put into place for Shamans after they received a huge buff, which I thought were pretty reasonable. The only thing that got worse is spamming blighted swiftcurses. Everything else got -way- better for Shaman.

    Personally, I'd be fine playing Shaman class for 1v1 combat. It's perfectly fine.

    The reason no hardcore fighters play Shaman is because it doesn't fit the role that most of typically want to be in. It doesn't have any quick kill methods that don't involve propping a lucky totem. It doesn't have any good team-melee abilities. It has great overall group utility though, with totems + dolls. 

    image

  • DunnDunn
    I think that there is a lot of overlooked melee potential for shamans.

    Particularly with inflame. Just look at the base bleed levels of things like DSL and arrows... then multiply them by six.


  • VaehlVaehl
    ^

    I know I don't want to be on the receiving end of 16 swiftcursed paralyse when being rushed. Not hard for them to stick sensitivity either. In smaller, coordinated groups a quick impatience is always welcome when you have decent serpents. Etc etc.
  • SenaSena
    edited October 2014
    Jovolo said:
    [2] - Swiftcurse equilibrium prior to this change was four seconds, and lasted for 15. Swiftcursed curses were 1 second. That gave you roughly 11 before it wore off. Don't forget that any level of hindrance also affected this, as well as curseward coming up. The change to Swiftcurse means you get a guaranteed amount of curses before swiftcurse wears off. This is a considerable benefit. It is also impossible to get 13 curses on a Swiftcurse as Vaehl mentioned. The artefacts give +2/+4/+6 to curses. With the level three artefact, you have 16. (or, comparitvely, a 60% increase. Remind me what the % boost was for the old level three artefact?). Buff.
    The skull pendants were 15/25/35%. Swiftcursed curses with nimble were less than 1 second, so without a pendant you could get 12-13 curses per swiftcurse (14-15 with swiftcursed swiftcurse), with a level 3 pendant it was 17-18 curses (20-21 with swiftcursed swiftcurse).

    Overall, I'd say the artefact was nerfed a bit while swiftcurse was buffed.

    Edit: For bashing though, this was a huge buff.

    Edit2: Also, unless it was fixed without an announcement, swiftcurse still reduces swiftcurse eq, so if you want to keep that benefit you get 1 less curse per swiftcurse (9/11/13/15 with unartied/L1/L2/L3), since you're using swiftcurse again when you have 1 curse left. Presumably that's why Bluef said she gets 13 curses with a level 2 pendant.
  • CooperCooper
    Are you sure you could get 15 curses with swiftcursed swiftcurse? With old Raja balance I was only able to ever get 15 then if I held down the enter key and got lucky with latency, usually 14.

  • DunnDunn
    Arrow hits >>> inflame for 1200+ >>> arrow hits >>> inflame for 1200+

    I think I know what I'm doing next week.


  • SenaSena
    edited October 2014
    Cooper said:
    Are you sure you could get 15 curses with swiftcursed swiftcurse? With old Raja balance I was only able to ever get 15 then if I held down the enter key and got lucky with latency, usually 14.
    I'm not 100% certain. 15 may have been with a diadem further reducing swiftcurse time.

    Also, swiftcurse duration was extended after traits/specialisations were implemented, so if you had old raja balance then you also had a shorter swiftcurse.
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