3 minute limb reset is pretty harsh against anyone who cures limbs optimally and plays defensively, or the momentum-based classes that force you to run periodically to catch your breath. I've already lost several limb preps to Alchemists and Priests who (no offense to them) I don't consider strong defensive players, because being forced on the defensive at the wrong time was all it took.
As a knight, 3 minutes is only an issue if you prep one limb fully, then the next, then the next, before going into your killing strategy. Some people do and have done this for a long time, so they'll perceive this change as a 3 minute timer from prepping one limb to executing a finisher. It isn't.
Even against static-parry, there's no reason to fully prep one limb, then fully prep the next, then another. Consider your new 'prep' level one dsl fewer, then consider tapping each limb one time the final part of your prep. Go through with your killing strategy after whatever momentum/further prep you need.
Just make health damage restart the limb reset timer or something.
this
That makes the entire limb reset timer irrelevant though. Do we want to encourage completely running after and not risking taking any health damage...? It's obviously really really really easy to do any sort of health damage.
Edit: Not that I particularly agree with the 3 minute change. I thought 5 was fine.
As a knight, 3 minutes is only an issue if you prep one limb fully, then the next, then the next, before going into your killing strategy. Some people do and have done this for a long time, so they'll perceive this change as a 3 minute timer from prepping one limb to executing a finisher. It isn't.
Even against static-parry, there's no reason to fully prep one limb, then fully prep the next, then another. Consider your new 'prep' level one dsl fewer, then consider tapping each limb one time the final part of your prep. Go through with your killing strategy after whatever momentum/further prep you need.
At the higher tiers, bypassing parry is as much RNG as anything else. Whether you're using something like sticking gecko for a 50% chance to slip by, waiting for Nairat to fire, or you're breaking both arms and praying your opponent doesn't web/fly/mountjump away, you end up failing a large number of bypasses before you finally get that parried limb prepped. In these cases, even if you rotate through and tap each other limb every so often, those other limbs are still going to end up prepped before the parried limb is, and so you still end up racing against the clock.
Recall that knights' prep time is longer than any other class', which means you have to stop your efforts periodically to not die to their setups, which could be all it takes if it happens at an inopportune moment. And god forbid that limb reset while you're not in their room, so you don't know about it. Then you're going to spend the next 15 minutes realizing your count is FUBAR'ed and resetting all their limbs so you can start over. Easier just to walk away and try again later at that point.
It's not impossible to deal with, it's just a royal pain in the ass, and I'm not sure why the change was needed. 5 minutes was not a long time to wait for limb damage to fall off between duels, and was already a risk against super defensive fighters, so 3 is going to be a headache.
-- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
* Earrings of Sinope now have a small "wind-up" before the movement occurs. Being hindered when the command is entered, or the movement is scheduled will cause it to fail.
It's not impossible to deal with, it's just a royal pain in the ass, and I'm not sure why the change was needed. 5 minutes was not a long time to wait for limb damage to fall off between duels, and was already a risk against super defensive fighters, so 3 is going to be a headache.
Super offensive ones as well. Sometimes you have to spend most of your energy not dying, in which case your prep can easily run to fifteen or twenty minutes.
@Aerek curare/kalmia works really well if you're fast enough, I didn't have that bad a time bypassing parry even against monks when I was paladin. Except that one time when I dueled Jarrel and he killed me before I got equilibrium back from dropping piety. User error sounds like the most likely explanation if you're having that much trouble dealing with parry, but feel free to post up a log if you think otherwise. Theory is just theory, but I don't think parry is that big a deal. 3 minutes is plenty of time.
To counteract limbs resetting out of room (sorry if the lines are a bit wrong, just going off the top of my head)
Lightning-quick, you jab (\w+)'s left leg with an ornate steel rapier. You vicious jab (\w+)'s left leg with an ornate steel rapier.
if llegtimer then llegtimer = nil end llegtimer = tempTimer(180, [[echo("\n- Left Leg has reset-") limbcounter.left_leg = 0]])
(1 for each limb, because I can't be bothered writing up 1 trigger/function to handle the whole body) Echo can obviously be coloured or anything. Just an example. I know Nemutaur's limb counter has a function like this.
@Aerek curare/kalmia works really well if you're fast enough, I didn't have that bad a time bypassing parry even against monks when I was paladin. Except that one time when I dueled Jarrel and he killed me before I got equilibrium back from dropping piety. User error sounds like the most likely explanation if you're having that much trouble dealing with parry, but feel free to post up a log if you think otherwise. Theory is just theory, but I don't think parry is that big a deal. 3 minutes is plenty of time.
Your rapiers were either unholy spawns of Peak and Trey's one night stand or your opponent was prioritizing asthma over paralysis. Either way, not how things go more often than not.
Manda also tracks limb damage timers, and catches limb resets outside of room, and even gives a 15 second warning when limbs of your current target are about to reset.
@Aerek curare/kalmia works really well if you're fast enough, I didn't have that bad a time bypassing parry even against monks when I was paladin. Except that one time when I dueled Jarrel and he killed me before I got equilibrium back from dropping piety. User error sounds like the most likely explanation if you're having that much trouble dealing with parry, but feel free to post up a log if you think otherwise. Theory is just theory, but I don't think parry is that big a deal. 3 minutes is plenty of time.
Your rapiers were either unholy spawns of Peak and Trey's one night stand or your opponent was prioritizing asthma over paralysis. Either way, not how things go more often than not.
Not really, I had 239s which is not much faster than what is common (235-ish). The tree change is especially useful for buffing this. It's as simple as curare/kalmia, curare/gecko. It's not more often than not, it's 50% of the time. That's pretty amazing and fast. If you still have trouble with it, as I advised Aerek, post a log. There are some people who are absurdly defensive that just about anyone would have trouble killing, but more often than not, I would assume user error.
@Aerek curare/kalmia works really well if you're fast enough, I didn't have that bad a time bypassing parry even against monks when I was paladin. Except that one time when I dueled Jarrel and he killed me before I got equilibrium back from dropping piety. User error sounds like the most likely explanation if you're having that much trouble dealing with parry, but feel free to post up a log if you think otherwise. Theory is just theory, but I don't think parry is that big a deal. 3 minutes is plenty of time.
Your rapiers were either unholy spawns of Peak and Trey's one night stand or your opponent was prioritizing asthma over paralysis. Either way, not how things go more often than not.
Not really, I had 239s which is not much faster than what is common (235-ish). The tree change is especially useful for buffing this. It's as simple as curare/kalmia, curare/gecko. It's not more often than not, it's 50% of the time. That's pretty amazing and fast. If you still have trouble with it, as I advised Aerek, post a log. There are some people who are absurdly defensive that just about anyone would have trouble killing, but more often than not, I would assume user error.
You said curare/kalmia so I assumed you meant those two venoms alone. Angry glaring ceased.
When did anything above 215 become common. Even with Trey and Peaks help, the best raps i have gotten are 223s and i use 215s atm.
Stuck in quote box. You don't fight near enough, I got twin 235s from Peak and Trey when I was runie. You should be able to find some 230s around somewhere.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I found like 5+ 235s for sale on my paladin research alt, on a whim, and it a free 243 for Shecks (for bard), so it can't be that hard. And despite the fact that this has probably been said a few hundred times on this forum already, the difference between forged rapiers (240-250 speed) and soulpiercers is massive.
I have had SPs multiple times now, and essentially only use them for bashing, straight DPS, and extremely dodgy players.
Not fighting shouldn't stop me from getting rapiers. That said, 3 mins is awful. I wasnt happy with 5. I suggested it would be better if people had an ability to reset their own limb damage akin to self shattering but with a 15 sec bal with a high wp cost or a debilitating affliction for x mins.
When Bonko was active, he would try to lock me two or three times then leave for 5 mins to wait for limbs to reset, then attack me again, leave again. It was mildly frustrating because it would last for hours. There was nothing I could do about it. He might eventually lock me but I would never prep him. Someone could easily do this in the arena too by just running and shield/rebounding for 3 mins if their initial kill combo does not work, and then trying again after reset.
Also consider that I cant execute my kill combo if I cant track their rebounding if they leave the room because if rebounding came up mid combo i would also lose my setup.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
That's a fair point, and yeah, rapier scarcity is definitely a problem regarding knight balance. Balance knights around 220s, and anyone with 240s is ridiculous. Balance knights around 240s and anyone with 220s has a lot more trouble. I hope the upcoming rework will address that.
@Aerek curare/kalmia works really well if you're fast enough, I didn't have that bad a time bypassing parry even against monks when I was paladin. Except that one time when I dueled Jarrel and he killed me before I got equilibrium back from dropping piety. User error sounds like the most likely explanation if you're having that much trouble dealing with parry, but feel free to post up a log if you think otherwise. Theory is just theory, but I don't think parry is that big a deal. 3 minutes is plenty of time.
Your rapiers were either unholy spawns of Peak and Trey's one night stand or your opponent was prioritizing asthma over paralysis. Either way, not how things go more often than not.
Not really, I had 239s which is not much faster than what is common (235-ish). The tree change is especially useful for buffing this. It's as simple as curare/kalmia, curare/gecko. It's not more often than not, it's 50% of the time. That's pretty amazing and fast. If you still have trouble with it, as I advised Aerek, post a log. There are some people who are absurdly defensive that just about anyone would have trouble killing, but more often than not, I would assume user error.
Maybe you're oversimplifying to save text, but there are some inaccurate assumptions here. Curare/kalmia, curare/gecko won't accomplish anything, since the asthma will be cured before you hit with the second combo. The fastest bypass along those lines is curare/xentio, curare/kalmia, curare/gecko, then a 50/50 shot at a hit through parry. That's 4 DSLs that require unhindered momentum; even a quick moment paralysed or with a crippled limb will lose it. With tree in the mix, you have to throw some dummy venoms out to burn Tree, then get your 4 unhindered DSLs in, which doesn't fit inside rebounding's window, so you can lose attempts just because it comes up at a bad time. End result is a 12-second attempt that's easily interruptible with a 50% chance of success, which is fine in a vacuum, but is not so simple in a fight with someone who's actually killing you.
Bypassing parry against monks is trivial, so they're not a good example. They're slower than any competitive knight, don't hinder while they prep, and usually don't use reboudning, so you can use the curare/gecko method without any trouble or even just delph them after each tekura combo and be fine. The classes that make life difficult are other knights, apostates, serpents, and alchemists, who are stacking paralysis or clumsiness on you just as fast as you're trying to stack asthma and gecko on them. (They're also the same classes that you have to go defensive every 20-30 seconds to avoid death) Using the gecko bypass against these people is a lot of frustration for not a lot of result; their hindrance means you shoul fall back on limb break strats that don't require so much momentum, but each of those have their own Achilles heel if the opponent knows all of them. (Few people do, but the ones that do are nearly impregnable)
Again, it's not impossible, it's just much more complicated than you're making it out to be, thus much more difficult against opponents who actually understand parry bypasses and aren't just setting it to a leg and forgetting it. The Powers that Be mentioned to me that the knight rev-amp should fix this when it arrives, so I'm not without hope, it's just going to be a rough road until those get here, and you'll hear some griping and swearing from my corner.
I'll post a log if I find a good one, or can meet you in Delos for a while and show you what I mean.
-- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
3 minutes is unnecessarily slow, 5 minutes was fine. I can't imagine trying to prep a Magi that drops ret intelligently or an Apostate after these changes. Gross.
As an affliction class/class that doesn't prep, I find this fine.
If I was a knight I'd find this an unnecessary change that makes you have to think too much (questions such as "how prepped do I leave a limb so I can hit it more to reset the timer?") and play too aggressively for a class that already preps really slowly. I understand it may have been implemented to try and balance the innate advantage prep classes have compared to momentum classes, but this change harms knight prep simply because it is already so slow and uses momentum based methods for parry bypass.
I don't see why it was reduced to 3 minutes. Because really how hard is it to ask a friend to come and reset your limbs for you. It only takes a minute and then you are back out in the fight.
Comments
Sanguine bleed seems to be 5% per level. It might be more complex than that, but getting bled at 1 and 10 was right around there.
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
Even against static-parry, there's no reason to fully prep one limb, then fully prep the next, then another. Consider your new 'prep' level one dsl fewer, then consider tapping each limb one time the final part of your prep. Go through with your killing strategy after whatever momentum/further prep you need.
i'm a rebel
Edit: Not that I particularly agree with the 3 minute change. I thought 5 was fine.
Recall that knights' prep time is longer than any other class', which means you have to stop your efforts periodically to not die to their setups, which could be all it takes if it happens at an inopportune moment. And god forbid that limb reset while you're not in their room, so you don't know about it. Then you're going to spend the next 15 minutes realizing your count is FUBAR'ed and resetting all their limbs so you can start over. Easier just to walk away and try again later at that point.
It's not impossible to deal with, it's just a royal pain in the ass, and I'm not sure why the change was needed. 5 minutes was not a long time to wait for limb damage to fall off between duels, and was already a risk against super defensive fighters, so 3 is going to be a headache.
i'm a rebel
Lightning-quick, you jab (\w+)'s left leg with an ornate steel rapier.
You vicious jab (\w+)'s left leg with an ornate steel rapier.
if llegtimer then llegtimer = nil end
llegtimer = tempTimer(180, [[echo("\n- Left Leg has reset-")
limbcounter.left_leg = 0]])
(1 for each limb, because I can't be bothered writing up 1 trigger/function to handle the whole body) Echo can obviously be coloured or anything. Just an example. I know Nemutaur's limb counter has a function like this.
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
i'm a rebel
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I have had SPs multiple times now, and essentially only use them for bashing, straight DPS, and extremely dodgy players.
When Bonko was active, he would try to lock me two or three times then leave for 5 mins to wait for limbs to reset, then attack me again, leave again. It was mildly frustrating because it would last for hours. There was nothing I could do about it. He might eventually lock me but I would never prep him. Someone could easily do this in the arena too by just running and shield/rebounding for 3 mins if their initial kill combo does not work, and then trying again after reset.
Also consider that I cant execute my kill combo if I cant track their rebounding if they leave the room because if rebounding came up mid combo i would also lose my setup.
-
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
i'm a rebel
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
Bypassing parry against monks is trivial, so they're not a good example. They're slower than any competitive knight, don't hinder while they prep, and usually don't use reboudning, so you can use the curare/gecko method without any trouble or even just delph them after each tekura combo and be fine. The classes that make life difficult are other knights, apostates, serpents, and alchemists, who are stacking paralysis or clumsiness on you just as fast as you're trying to stack asthma and gecko on them. (They're also the same classes that you have to go defensive every 20-30 seconds to avoid death) Using the gecko bypass against these people is a lot of frustration for not a lot of result; their hindrance means you shoul fall back on limb break strats that don't require so much momentum, but each of those have their own Achilles heel if the opponent knows all of them. (Few people do, but the ones that do are nearly impregnable)
Again, it's not impossible, it's just much more complicated than you're making it out to be, thus much more difficult against opponents who actually understand parry bypasses and aren't just setting it to a leg and forgetting it. The Powers that Be mentioned to me that the knight rev-amp should fix this when it arrives, so I'm not without hope, it's just going to be a rough road until those get here, and you'll hear some griping and swearing from my corner.
I'll post a log if I find a good one, or can meet you in Delos for a while and show you what I mean.
As a Knight, that is. Everyone else has it fine.
If I was a knight I'd find this an unnecessary change that makes you have to think too much (questions such as "how prepped do I leave a limb so I can hit it more to reset the timer?") and play too aggressively for a class that already preps really slowly. I understand it may have been implemented to try and balance the innate advantage prep classes have compared to momentum classes, but this change harms knight prep simply because it is already so slow and uses momentum based methods for parry bypass.