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PK Rules and Consequences

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  • DunnDunn
    Here comes the witch hunt.


  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited August 2014
    Jovolo said:
    Your argument is flawed purely because no one is trying to make combat more difficult and harder to understand, most noticeably the high-tier combatants you refer to, who in fact have supported through classleads and discussions to make combat VASTLY more easy to get involved in over the past couple years.

    It's not teh eluminati
    If people come here asking for strategies, general help and the unwritten rules, then PK guidelines, etc. aren't that easy to grasp, or, at the very least, they are not perceived that way by people who aren't high-tier combatants.

    That's all I'm saying. Jacen isn't a dumb ass. He may not be someone who is top tier but he's also not a noob.

    I think the perspective of some top tier combatants is a bit rose-coloured, tbh in the same way that people who are dragons and 100+ in their circle of experience often lose the ability to perceive XP loss in the same fashion as someone who is still on their way up through the ranks.

    Also @Draen‌ I could not agree more!
  • JovoloJovolo
    Then say that, instead of outright claiming a group of people in the game are elitists trying to retain a stranglehold on PK exclusivity and dominance, which is what you previously said.

    Notice how most questions regarding strategies and concerns are answered in extensive detail, too. How is that an attempt to shut out others from participation? 

    People aren't born with supreme knowledge on all things. Should we write down how to complete Honours Quests too? Maybe spoonfeed all the best hunting spots and exploration details? Part of the fun is learning, and innovating - to detract from that would in my opinion, dilute Achaea unneccessarily.
  • StrataStrata United States of Derp
    If you want to get involved with PK, ask a lot of questions and PRACTICE. (we have arenas). Find people on your skill level to duel. NEVER talk shit when you lose unless it's really slick insulting commentary that is IN ROLE with the situation. "You may have won this duel, but you swing those rapiers like your grook mother flails on my longsword." <-- Acceptable. "I'm issuing you for breaking my svo and killing me in a duel for no reason." <-- Not acceptable (unless you're Mithridates - u wot m8?)

    This thread wouldn't exist if people just manned up and stopped trying to come up with "solutions" to problems that only exist in the form of their own flawed thinking and behaviors. The admin have been around longer than most of the players and I think it's safe to assume they know the difference between "illegal PK" and "not illegal PK". If people are constantly issuing for the sole purpose of establishing a pattern of issuing over frivolous shit - and the issues keep getting dismissed because there are no violation of rules - then obviously the "system" is not broken - the issuers have a psychological problem. However, if that is the only way some players think they can "win" in Achaea, nothing is prohibiting them from doing such.
  • ErnamErnam
    edited August 2014
    I think it's somewhat naive to state that you are "constantly" being issued and state that "the issuers have a psychological problem".  I certainly wouldn't let my daughter go out with someone who was been accused of date rape a few dozen times, but has never been convicted.

    It isn't normal to get issued "constantly".  I PK significantly more than the average player, and I am virtually never issued by anyone, for any reason.  This "problem" that you are describing isn't a systemic one, it's just you and a few others who believe that you should be able to do whatever you want to whoever you want, with absolutely no regard for the fact that people play the game to have fun, not to be your punching bags.  I can respect the fact that you want the game to be one where everyone is open PK at all times, but you have to respect the fact that that isn't the case.

    Regardless of whether or not the issues against you are upheld or dismissed, the sheer fact that they exist in quantities that warrant the amount of complaining you do about them should say something to you.  Maybe all the people asking the admin to intervene to stop your unwarranted, unwelcome behavior aren't the ones with the "psychological problem".

    By stating that "issuers have a psychological problem", you have clearly established that you see all people who file issues the same way, regardless of why the issued, or if their issues have merit.  This reeks of sociopathy*, which is, in fact, a psychological problem.

    Definition of "sociopath" and description of your attitude:
    A person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial,often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.


    I'm also a little sick of this made-up crap about "winning" using Issues.  Nobody does this, or wants to.  If people are issuing you, it's because you're doing things that are unwelcome, and in their point of view, illegal.  The only reason you've made up this ficticious straw-man argument is so that you establish yourself as the victim instead of the portrayed multitude of people who are filing issues against you.

  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Issuing should be looked down upon.  It is not an offensive action and it completely breaks immersion.  More often than not, it is a waste of admin time that could be better spent elsewhere.  If someone attacks you without being able to justify it and you are too small to do anything about it,  get two of the baddest dudes(dudettes?) you know to go wreck them or ask for help next time it happens. Stop slowing down multi class with all this crap about harassment.  If you kill someone without cause and they bring more people to kill you,  fight back/die and move on.  
  • ErnamErnam
    It disgusts me that you will say that "Issuing should be looked down upon", but didn't say anything remarkedly close to "Illegally PKing people should be looked down upon."

    News flash, if people stopped doing illegal things, issues would cease to be filed.  The solution to your "problem" is in your own hands.
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    edited August 2014
    Hey @Ernam‌, how many times have you been issued?  0 times for me.  Next point? 

    Edit: please don't issue me.  I haven't bought 50k credits on two characters.
    Edit2: everyone I have issued can feel free to draw attention to that.  Post the issue If you still have it. ... Oh wait.  No one?  
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Way to dodge the question.  Think I have never been ganked?  I don't think one death is worth the admin having to sort through logs,  investigate,  and rule on.  @Cooper‌ recently issued someone and it took a rl month to decide.  How much time was wasted that could have been used making the realm enjoyable for everyone instead of punishing one person.  Not saying his issue wasn't justified(no idea even what it was over),  never heard of him issuing so it probably was justified,  but I stand by the fact it was a waste of time. They offender got at most a credibility reduction or scrubbed a few days. Would have been quicker to gank the fool and move on.  If no one ever issued,  we could have had multi class months ago I bet. 

    (Not 100% sure Cooper is the person I am thinking of,  I get name confused. Tagged for clarification on time line, not discussion of the issue.)
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Issuing to win a single fight is and will always be wrong.  If someone goes on a rampage and kills you 9 times,  issue.  
  • StrataStrata United States of Derp
    Ernam said:
    I think it's somewhat naive to state that you are "constantly" being issued and state that "the issuers have a psychological problem".  I certainly wouldn't let my daughter go out with someone who was been accused of date rape a few dozen times, but has never been convicted.
    I didn't say I am constantly being issued. In fact, I didn't refer to any specific individuals at all in my previous post.
    Ernam said:
    It isn't normal to get issued "constantly".  I PK significantly more than the average player, and I am virtually never issued by anyone, for any reason.  This "problem" that you are describing isn't a systemic one, it's just you and a few others who believe that you should be able to do whatever you want to whoever you want, with absolutely no regard for the fact that people play the game to have fun, not to be your punching bags.  I can respect the fact that you want the game to be one where everyone is open PK at all times, but you have to respect the fact that that isn't the case.

    Now that you have decided what I previously posted should pertain to you, it is obvious that you would take such an opportunity to lash out at others (including myself) in attempts to have them painted in a bad light or possibly even shrubbed. I think recently in Combat Logs you actually asked why I am not shrubbed yet. It is clear that your only intention here is to spread false accusations and exaggerate ordinary PK behavior into illegal bullying and harassment - along with any other avenue that might present itself. Your behaviors are the very definitions of metagaming and harassment - which ARE against the rules.
    Ernam said:
    Regardless of whether or not the issues against you are upheld or dismissed, the sheer fact that they exist in quantities that warrant the amount of complaining you do about them should say something to you.  Maybe all the people asking the admin to intervene to stop your unwarranted, unwelcome behavior aren't the ones with the "psychological problem".

    By stating that "issuers have a psychological problem", you have clearly established that you see all people who file issues the same way, regardless of why the issued, or if their issues have merit.  This reeks of sociopathy*, which is, in fact, a psychological problem.

    Definition of "sociopath" and description of your attitude:
    A person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial,often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.


    I'm also a little sick of this made-up crap about "winning" using Issues.  Nobody does this, or wants to.  If people are issuing you, it's because you're doing things that are unwelcome, and in their point of view, illegal.  The only reason you've made up this ficticious straw-man argument is so that you establish yourself as the victim instead of the portrayed multitude of people who are filing issues against you.

    Without being an admin yourself (Weren't you recently shrubbed and forum banned for stating that your system is "Sarapis-approved"?), and without me giving out details on issues and who wrote them, there is no way for anyone except admin to know who has issued me and for what reasons. I will say that you are the only person who has ever written issues on me (all of which have been dismissed) that had absolutely no substance other than benign attempts to have me punished as a form a metagame that so far hasn't worked for you and probably has you quite pissed off. You're now grasping at straw-mans (pun intended) trying to make this whole thing look like "Strata is playing the victim card and all of his friends are slandering me." None of this is true. I don't have a crew of forums-underlings that say what I want them to say. These people say things because what I say makes sense, and what you say doesn't.

    I enjoyed reading the sociopath part though. Didn't think I was perceived as intelligent enough to be accused of that.
  • ErnamErnam
    edited August 2014
    No, I was not shrubbed for stating that my system is Sarapis-approved.  Nor did I say that it was, ever.  (I said that I presented it to him, asked if was OK, and it was determined to be OK, which is 100% true, which is what I said on P9, prompting Bluef to put words in my mouth.  Explaining this to Sarapis, which he verified, was the reason my shrubbing was reversed early)

    You've also been ruled against multiple times, saying otherwise is obviously a lie that you know nobody can "prove" you wrong on.

    Stating that I'm harassing you in the context of this conversation is, however, one of the most ironic things I've ever seen.
  • StrataStrata United States of Derp
    Ernam said:
    ...
    You've also been ruled against multiple times, saying otherwise is obviously a lie that you know nobody can "prove" you wrong on.

    Stating that I'm harassing you in the context of this conversation is, however, one of the most ironic things I've ever seen.
    I'm still confused. Are you one of the game admins or is this another wild assumption/accusation you have made that I have been "ruled against multiple times"? Is this a court of law? Have I ever threatened (see: harassment behavior) to take someone to court over an issue relating to an online game? Nope. Have you? I think we both know the answer to that.
  • ErnamErnam

    A blatant lie, how quaint.
  • StrataStrata United States of Derp
    Ernam said:

    A blatant lie, how quaint.
    It's quite difficult to lie in the form of a question. So if you are in fact one of the admins, maybe you could check your logs and see if I'm lying or not? Otherwise, digging yourself a hole here...
  • XithXith
    Yeah as someone arguably well-versed in the complaints, it's basically what they said: have a reasonable reason to attack someone or don't do it. Insult/defense of honor is "cause", but make sure you're being smart about it. Calling your boots ugly is not cause for killing someone, but calling your wife ugly, well them's grounds for a duel.

    "Homicidal maniac" is explicitly ruled out, although some aspects of Mhaldorian roleplay could call glory kills into question, earning their necro essence back through consuming hearts where applicable. But usually if roaming priests are killing people it's a mark target or org enemy to make it doubly justified.

    The old eye-for-eye retribution kind of only exists in our minds now, but that the same time there is a such thing as griefing (if the victim is not Infamous? verify that?).

    Life is less sacred in a world where people come back to life in a few minutes, but you should still gauge it as a medieval world where things are settled with sword fights when warranted.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • JacenJacen
    edited August 2014
    Antonius said:
    Jukilian said:
    If we start putting numbers up like "If you defile a shrine you are going to die X times" we are starting to ultimately deviate back to the way of the previous PK rules.
    This already exists though, it's called the Writs system. You die, at most, one time per shrine you're witnessed defiling.
    Yet I was called a bitch (in nicer words, I'll give you) by several people for asking if being killed at the shrine, then being killed later in fulfillment of the writ, was accepted behavior.

    Things like this were my primary point in creating the thread: There's been several cases where people have said that you can expect to get killed multiple times for a single offensive action, and cases where people tell you that you -shouldn't- be attacked under these circumstances (ie. randomly sniping a soldier in city) but there's been no mention of if and how you should handle the situation. 

    It really feels like the stance held by the big PKers is "Yeah, there are some things that shouldn't happen to you, but if they do you should suck it up and deal with it or else you're a bitch" 

    I also note that you don't actually say being killed twice for one shrine defilement is against the rules or against what you think should be appropriate; if you feel like its fine, then this post is mostly irrelevant.
    image
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    @Iuneos‌, I love you.  
  • IuneosIuneos
    edited August 2014
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Bromarriage?
  • FendrelFendrel
    To be honest people complains too much sometimes (I'm in that list too). If you can't really deal with starting conflict then just don't.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited August 2014
    Ernam said:
    It disgusts me that you will say that "Issuing should be looked down upon", but didn't say anything remarkedly close to "Illegally PKing people should be looked down upon."

    News flash, if people stopped doing illegal things, issues would cease to be filed.  The solution to your "problem" is in your own hands.
    Honestly, Ernam is making all kinds of valid points today. It's the same reason that a Rape Culture exists in the OOC world: Because we focus efforts on teaching young women to prevent rape rather than simply teaching men not to rape. This is a solid analogy and it goes really well with the comparison Ernam made earlier:
    Ernam said:
    I think it's somewhat naive to state that you are "constantly" being issued and state that "the issuers have a psychological problem".  I certainly wouldn't let my daughter go out with someone who was been accused of date rape a few dozen times, but has never been convicted.

    Admin, Help scrolls, and the like should encourage people to PK within acceptable boundaries rather than teaching people how to prevent things from de-evolving into issues, but..

    Here is the problem. That is exactly what the simplified PK system already does.

    Instead of everything being a question of legality (ie. the old PK system) we're told to use common sense and Pk reasonably. The problem is that not everyone can agree on what is reasonable and some people simply lack common sense all together. For example:

    Ernam said:
    No, I was not shrubbed for stating that my system is Sarapis-approved.  Nor did I say that it was, ever.  (I said that I presented it to him, asked if was OK, and it was determined to be OK, which is 100% true, which is what I said on P9, prompting Bluef to put words in my mouth.  Explaining this to Sarapis, which he verified, was the reason my shrubbing was reversed early)

    Everyone in that clan that day heard you say repeatedly that you had run Godzilla by Sarapis and he OKed it. The fact that you never stated in these exact words, "100% Sarapis-approved!" does not mean that isn't exactly what you were implying when you did say this:

    Ernam says, "It is 100% legal, Sarapis has read the site."


    It was pretty clear what you hoped we'd infer from the comment. If anything, your ability to squirm your way of out a longer shrubbing is only indicative that you yourself practice exactly the kind of behavior that you are supposedly so against in Achaea re: Issues and PK. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: 
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    What is this "common sense" you speak of? 
  • ErnamErnam
    There's a big difference between "Sarapis has read the site" and "Godzilla is 100% Sarapis-approved".  A difference big enough to get me unshrubbed.
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