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PK Rules and Consequences

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  • RohaiRohai Member Posts: 451 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014
    To be fair you are completely correct there. I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony. (Is that irony technically? No idea but you get my drift.) I still think you've got swag, and no hard feelings. I just like to run my mouth.

    edit to add: sorry for digressing, I'm gonna shut up now.
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    if you die, you died for a reason.


    If you can stop that death next time, stop it.  If not, then learn what you should be doing.


    If you can't learn, then you aren't a part of higher level PK(yet) and shouldn't try to be apart of that. start scrub pk'ing first.  Why do people feel entitled to be the best before they are?  Suck a bit, learn, and get better?  If you feel griefed, then let someone know.  If not, then you aren't trying hard enough.

    image
    AtalkezRipDaslin
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Iuneos said:
    Yes, what I'm saying is that by hiding behind rules and 'oh you can't do that!' you're just stifling progress.  Also, making PK accessible for anyone to be good at will kind of nullify the entire point of PK, which is essentially being better than someone else.  It's a game where there's clear winners and losers, and you can't make everyone a winner. 
    I don't really get your second statement. Are you saying access walls to PvP are a good thing?

    That goes against your first sentence in so many ways. First of all, that'll only stifle progress as well, by limiting the number of people involved in PvP. We already don't have a big enough playerbase to even crank out a half-decent wiki, and you want to limit access to PvP even more - one of the game's biggest selling points and most extensive mechanisms?

    Secondly, if PvP is inherently unfair about who can access it, things like issues and hiding behind PK rules become viable meta-tactics in the face of not having legitimate tactics to respond with. This is already a thing that happens.

    edit: I figured I should clarify that I'm not saying skill walls are a bad thing - they're kind of a core part of competitive gaming. I just don't really get what you're getting at here when you say accessible, or "at will."
  • DrodakDrodak Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2014
    I don't really see a problem with the guidelines set forth within HELP PK as they seem very cut and dry. The problem is going to come from the way members of the player base react after they become irrational. We all want to win no matter how competitive we are, clearly some more so than others. No one really likes to feel humiliated either.
    I disagree that people in general should not care about xp. It sounds almost comical to hear accomplished pvpers/dragons say that. People are different and have different priorites in the game. When all you want to do is pvp then level doesn't seem to matter that much. When your already great at pvp then you can make an alt and roll people while you bash, if bashing is even something you want to do. Some people want to get to level 100 in a somewhat timely fashion because being a dragon is really cool. If this is your goal and you are not a pvp rockstar then you will have some choices to make for what pvp activities that you partake in. But really though, if you take away the rules in a game like this I have a strange feeling that a large part of player base would be griefed out of the game. That is just the way it is unless you were to make everything 100% open pk, then people would know what they were signing up for to begin with.
    Jhaeli
  • StunereeStuneree Member Posts: 221 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2014
    I have absolutely no problem with being PKed, especially when I'm enemied to the attacker's City or Order.
    Losing exp is a small price to pay, because if there's no penalty for death, it's difficult to roleplay as "someone who would prefer not to die".
    I'm also more than willing to simply run from a fight I can't win, no problem with admitting that. But if I'm finally caught and killed, it isn't a problem at all, it's generally just good roleplay. (Right, @Jinsun‌ ? ;D)

    Personally, I'd guess that MOST people who get killed know exactly why it happened, but are just pissed that it did and rationalize it was unfair.


    JhuiPraxidesHalos
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Flair said:
    I think things are better now than they used to be now that PK is RP based. In the old days it was just cause counting and issue making. This way, if you really want to avoid combat, all you pretty much have to do is not bother anyone. Don't get yourself enemied to cities or orders, don't smart of to people who can kill you, don't be in places you shouldn't be. I'm enemied to almost everything non-chaos related and I really very seldom get attacked out of the blue for no reason, so I can't imagine it's too hard for someone who really wants to avoid it.
    Jacen said:
    @Bluef sure, its perfectly logical to prepare for and expect retaliation for something you've done. The problem is that we don't know how much retaliation is or isn't appropriate. If the only offensive act I've committed in the last 10 IG years is to use five mhun corpses to defile a shrine, how many deaths have I earned with that act? If I quit my city and join an opposing one, do I deserve 1 death or 30?

    In regards to the edit, if you break a PK rule and I'm the victim of whatever you did, why do I have to place my bets on the uncertainty of the Mark system to bring me justice, when I can use the system designed specifically for determining the illegality of actions and their consequences? Why should the admin not be informed when their rules have been broken? 
    Having just had a bounty placed on me for "countless crimes" committed nearly 100 years ago, I empathize with your frustration and agree that there are many gaps in information in certain scrolls on Pk-related topics. 

    I think PK should be really simple. Kill someone once, then they can kill you, hire on you, or just drop it, chalking it up to "Hey, I deserved that." There's no need, after all, to kill them over and over again unless both of you are enjoying that sort of conflict. I think that's what Rivals were created for anyway. 

    In a perfect Achaean world there wouldn't even be "perma enemies" to places unless an enemy wanted to be an outright rival to a city -- especially when hundreds of years have passed and you have absolutely no desire to be an enemy or hostile to a place anymore. #bitchingaboutmyownicproblemsnowsorryaboutthat

    Even if someone has the "RP justification" needed to seemingly kill you endlessly or keep you enemied to a city or House, that's just sort of being a jerk. It's like raiding a city off-peak hours: Who is that fun for? The raiding party? Sure. The other players trying to make their way through the city for 5 hours while you destroy every room in sight? Nope. Approach PK and enemyings and all the negative parts of Achaea with care and common sense for the community as a whole. 

    I've had a few instances of PK recently that just became tedious and all too cyclical for me. Hiring is my (subtle?) way of saying, "I don't want to fight you anymore. Go fight this person who gives many more shits about combat than I do." 

    [ Edit: Agree with @Jacen - I think Writs need a major re-working, including lessening the time you can "hold" a writ and the ability to see if writs are held against you (which would encourage holders to yield them or lose them...thereby making witnessing a kind of Pkable action, which I think everyone would enjoy a lot more. ]
  • VithincusVithincus Member Posts: 149 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Santar said:
    There's a lot of options for people who want to lightly involve themselves in Achaea combat but don't want the stress of being fully involved in PK.

    For starters, you have arenas. Arenas were pretty much made for exactly this. You can do 1v1s, you can do team fights, or whatever you really want to in there.  It's a perfect way to engage yourself in combat with no consequences.

    Secondly, you can fight defensively in raids. This is low commitment because nobody is legally allowed to come after you outside of the specific raids as long as you defend within your city.

    And finally, you can pick and choose targets that are more your level of experience to partake in legitimate PK with. I see scrubs dueling each other occasionally, but not all that much really.  People shouldn't be afraid to fight similarly skilled people to them outside the arena. 


    All the god damned time I'm looking for up and coming fighters from Ashtan and Mhaldor to fight with and all the god damned time they just bail out at the first sign of trouble when they aren't surrounded by allies. On the rare occasion I do get one to stand and fight I can rest assured that they'll be back to gank me in numbers. I offer duels all the time and am almost always rejected. To be fair I refuse my fair number of duels, but for fucks sake I don't want to have to solely duel people with 200+ years on me with more arties than I have transed skills. /rant 
    AegothBluef
  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think HELP PK is perfectly fine for guidelines around PK. If you blatantly go against them (i.e. go around killing people for no reason other than "I kill people from X city"), then I think it's breaking rules and should ultimately be punished.

    However, if you involve yourself in combat/etc, you should expect to die. If we start putting numbers up like "If you defile a shrine you are going to die X times" we are starting to ultimately deviate back to the way of the previous PK rules.

    Simply put, if you don't want to risk dying, don't get involved in combat. If you get involved in combat, expect to die. How many times? I don't know. RP it out.
    If you don't get involved in combat at all and still end up getting killed for stupid reasons (i.e. only if you use common sense, for example if Targossas takes over the Crossroads, you should not sit at the Crossroads as an Hashani. You will probably die), then I say there is warrant for feeling annoyed and being angry at the loss of XP.

    If you want to fight and want to learn more, then I'd say try talking to people about how you can improve. For example, just got owned by X? Try asking them what you could have done better. I'm willing to bet a lot of people probably wouldn't mind giving a tip or two. They won't share? Ask someone else you know.

    (Totally posted this in the wrong thread. That's what I get for multiple threads open and barely being able to keep my eyes open. :disappointed: 
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jukilian said:
    If we start putting numbers up like "If you defile a shrine you are going to die X times" we are starting to ultimately deviate back to the way of the previous PK rules.
    This already exists though, it's called the Writs system. You die, at most, one time per shrine you're witnessed defiling.
  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
    Unless people witness, then kill you. Then do writ. Then when they're raiding your city, they kill you because you've defiled their shrines in the past. Who knows.

    But if we apply fixed numbers to every situation, it's basically going back to the old rules. That's just an example.
    Praxides
  • DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm no stellar Pk'er. This is something I fully admit. But being around people like @Jhui, @Dunn, @Merador, etc has made me not care about the xp anymore even though I am working towards dragon. I mean yeah, I still get aggravated over some pk stuff, but those guys have taught me to just laugh and let it go. It's a game guys, try to have fun with it no matter what.
    PraxidesDaslinKlendathu
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Man, I hear people whine about xp loss all the time. I doubt anyone has gotten levels 75-78 more times than me at this point. I like PvP, and I throw myself into it full force. Joining Mark at level 50 was a terrible decision (thanks @Tanris) but you know what? I learned from it.

    I try to learn something from every death, whether it is from a duel or raid or whatever.  I don't care about my stat stats, my kdr is like 490/1500. You don't get good at PK without actually PKing. I Feel like I'm just now finally starting to make notable progress in my actual abilities. It has been a long road and by no means is done, but the point is you have to try.

    If you think you're going to ever beat @Jhui in a 1v1, you're dawn sure not going to do it with a hunting macro. You have to have real tangible experience in dealing with sitiations. The people that are "top tier" are that beacuse and have dedicated RL years to getting better and have seen it all. They aren't flailing about anymore. 

    Also the idea that you need to be Dragon is false. I'm sub-80 and barely artied, and I'm halfway to a 1000 kills in less than 50 IG years. I started this game and have focused nearly solely on PvP. That's my game, that's why I play. I was killing people (albeit sucky ones) before even buying any artied at all.

    It's all a mindstate. Surround yourself with like minded people, and that XP loss suddenly is a lot more bearable.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    ChiamAkia
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Antonius said:
    Jukilian said:
    If we start putting numbers up like "If you defile a shrine you are going to die X times" we are starting to ultimately deviate back to the way of the previous PK rules.
    This already exists though, it's called the Writs system. You die, at most, one time per shrine you're witnessed defiling.
    Let's be honest, not everyone in Achaea is that conservative with their perceived PK rights. Unfortunately, that means that writs may have been intended to work one way, but that is not how writs are always employed. 

    Writs are active for 75 days (IC hours) which means if you defile you can be attacked for that long IC. Writs only expire if the holder kills you.

    At the end of 75 days, the holder may not have killed you (who knows if they even have a writ - the defiler can't see who holds writs or how much time is left on them) and can then yield it to the Order.

    The Order can then hire a Mark, re-starting the clock at 29 days (more if you don't leave the city that often and the assassin/champion contract doesn't tick down quickly). 
     
    So basically, defile and you may have 100 IC days of PK coming your way [ if the writ holder chooses to only use you as target practice and/or if you choose to evade death at their hands instead of facing it head-on ].
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,128 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't get this thread. Someone TL;DR me. I PK, I can help.
    image
    AustereValaria
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mizik said:
    I don't get this thread. Someone TL;DR me. I PK, I can help.

    Its important that you lose xp but just as important that you don't care about it.
    You PK in a game where there are rules you can be held accountable to, but you don't know what they are.
    There isn't a clear plan of action when you've been a victim of someone breaking one of the few visible PK rules.
    image
    JhaeliRohai
  • ChiamChiam Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2014
    I can understand why a lot of people are afraid of pk xp loss, and I don't blame them at all. I used to be one, hoping to reach Dragon someday and hunting a lot for it, and dying hurts so much. However at one point I suddenly stopped to care too much. Don't remember why, probably due to the monotony of hunting.

    As a newb fighter (if even one), I die multiple times per day to PK on average, and rarely get kills. Even so I defile alone a lot, and even became a Mark to seek conflict often just because combat is so fun - I believe it will be even more fun when I win more. It is so hard.

    It is unarguable that when you stop caring too much about xp loss, the game becomes that much more fun.

    edit: oh and I still hope to become a Dragon someday
    BluefPraxidesSuladan
  • JhaeliJhaeli Member Posts: 541 @ - Epic Achaean
    It baffles me that high-tier PKers are against removing XP loss when a) they generally don't have to worry about it, either as dragons or as players skilled enough at PvP to end up with a net gain; and b) you'd have a LOT more people interested in joining PvP in general, increasing that aspect of the game. Look at how many more players are willing to PvP casually these days, compared to when we had higher xp loss. 

    Yes, it's probably a topic for another thread, but XP loss is inextricably tied into the reasons why players who don't play Achaea for PvP or even PvE have problems with even casual or roleplay-enforced conflict. Many organisations demand that a character join the army as part of their roleplay and there is no way to progress further (even to HR5) without joining. This is a good thing, but it pretty much negates the "Well, don't join the army!" And saying "just get better" is, frankly, a ridiculous answer and usually just encourages the person to not bother in the first place. (Not saying you shouldn't earn high-tier status, but we're not talking about high-tier status - we're talking about getting involved at an entry-level even.)

    More personally, I'm more than willing to accept the XP loss that comes with a death, sure. But I've always played Achaea for the social interaction, the theology, and the politics - that's why it took me twelve IRL years to finally get a character to level 80. And now she risks losing Logosian as part of her roleplayed shift to a more combat-focused community, which annoys me OOCly because I loathe the hunting grind. I'm not going to change my city because I might lose Logosian, but I understand why someone else might get frustrated over a death because it can take hours to replace what you lose. 

    Changing it to some sort of temporary 'death penalty' that gives you a compoundable hit to, say, health and mana, would still make death important to avoid without forcing midbies to spend hours making up for a bit of PvP conflict and would likely encourage a lot more casual PvPers, increasing PvP as a whole and lessening some of the reasons people resort to issuing. Logically, it would also encourage shorter, but more intense skirmishes.

    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man." 

    ShirszaeSaevaAchimrst
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Regarding experience loss:  I wholeheartedly think that removing exp loss from deaths is probably one of the worst things you could possibly do to the game.  I don't think that the people asking for it truly understand all the different ways that would impact the game.

    Short version of the explanation:  The potential for negative consequences (the more significant the better) motivates people to attempt to avoid them.  In Achaea's case, this means getting better at combat.  Without that incentivization, combat and combat skill would be effectively meaningless.

    Exp loss is the only thing that currently drives people to avoid dying.  Achaea wouldn't make any sense if you simply didn't care if your character dies (which is exactly what would happen if you got rid of exp loss).

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        Stuneree
      1. JhaeliJhaeli Member Posts: 541 @ - Epic Achaean
        edited August 2014
        ...you can make different negative consequences for dying that are, nevertheless, significant. No one is arguing that there should be NO consequences for dying. (Or at least, I'm not.)

        ETA: As for actual 'dos' and 'donts', I've said this before, but I go into it trying not to be a jerk. Others have elaborated on this better than I though.

        "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man." 

      2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Experience loss is already pretty insignificant, and the amount lost is relatively meaningless, particularly compared to other similar games.

        A single starburst is about 15 minutes worth of bashing.  There's a reason people like Jhui die 20 times a day without blinking an eye.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited August 2014
            Ernam said:
            I do not and have never understood what "in-character resolution" is supposed to mean.  99% of the time, the only "resolution" that settles unprovoked attacks/death is killing the person, one way or another.  As long as you're illegally killing people that are weaker than yourself, or otherwise unable to kill you back (everyone, if you have earrings), there is no way that the people you're killing can achieve "in-character resolution".  

            Furthermore, the rules are pretty clear that once you try to attack people for attacking you, you lose the right to issue for the illegal attack.  Thus, the rules specifically prohibit attempting in-character resolution before filing the issue, however if you do not attempt in-character resolution before filing the issue, the issue is dropped for lack of attempt of in-character resolution.  The result is: Almost every single legitimate issue filed regarding illegal PK is dropped for lack of in-character resolution.

            I'm sure the crowd of people who adamantly hate and chastise those who file issues when illegaly PK'd (who are, coincidentally, people who are frequently issued for illegally PKing people) will be quick to state that "There are other forms of in-character resolution." - but I'd really like to know, specifically, what those are.
            You're confusing resolution with retribution/revenge. You don't have to always win.

            I do agree that requiring* IC resolution before issuing is silly, but not for those reasons. For some context: HELP ISSUES used to say that it was almost never appropriate to issue for a single death. Issues were (back then, not necessarily now) meant to be used when you were being killed/attacked repeatedly without cause. "IC resolution" meant resolving the situation, so the person griefing you stops doing it. That part was removed from the help file, and now issues are primarily used (as far as I've seen) for single infractions, and so "IC resolution" often doesn't make sense, because there's nothing to resolve if whatever happened was an isolated incident.

            *It's not actually required. I haven't seen an issue dismissed for lack of attempted IC resolution in probably 10 years, while I've seen a lot upheld when there obviously wasn't any attempt.
          2. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
            I don't think removing exp loss would increase the popularity of PVP per se; anybody who wants to PVP without exp loss can do spars and Arena events. 

            What it would do is ensure that more people do city raiding/defense, dueling, exterminations and shrine defilement.  The parties would be way bigger and a ton of people would be doing these things solo.

            But I'm not sure that those are good things.  Do we actually want 30v30 fights?  Is that something that sounds fun to anybody?
            BluefPraxides
          3. BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited August 2014
            Ernam said:
            Some trends I've noticed among people who attack people on the forums for using Issues:
            • They themselves are, invariably, frequently issued for illegal PK.
            • The issues filed against them are frequently legitimate, and the outcry is essentially "payback" for being a whistle-blower.
            • They frequently minimize character death, stating that people shouldn't care about dying so much.
            • They tend to distract people from the fact that their illegal behavior is a pattern, not an isolated incident.
            • They offer absolutely no suggestions on ways to solve the problem at hand without issuing.
            • They refuse to acknowledge that if issues are either dishonest or frivolous, there's no need to drag the person through the mud on the forums, because dishonest and frivolous issues are not only dismissed, but are punishable.
            • They consistently publically attack the character of the issuer, despite the fact that the statements have absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of their issue. (definition of "straw man argument")
            • They typically receive much applause and back-slapping from other individuals who are also frequently on the bad end of issues.
            Let me preface this by saying that I disagree with most of what he has to say about XP loss and whatnot, but Ernam does have some good points here.

            The very fact that there are high-end PKers in this thread talking down to the "scrubs" who want very much to better understand the guidelines for and become involved in PK goes to support his overall conceptualization of Achaea's PK Community as an elite group intent on staying elite by making combat more difficult, various PK situations and their guidelines harder to to understand, and the forums a place where people's perceived OOC character (not the quality of their IC roleplay or class or combat experience) is of little importance. 
            JhaeliAchimrst
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