What Happened To You Today?

Draqoom

Taraus said:

Blah blah blah useless shit here...

Blah blah blah my arrpee here. So you don't have the gold demanded on hand! Offer me your fucking pocket lint and some pre-chewed myrrh gum and I will more than likely let you go! Blah blah blah end of paragraph.

Closing statement with mild snark injected here.

I've bolded the relevant part for clarity and edited out the garbage.

LOOKS LIKE I KNOW WHAT I'LL BE PAYING PIRATES WITH NOW! THX BBY!

Nim

I sure hope they accept witty banter, philosophical debates, and pointless arguments, I'm not allowed to trade with Mhaldorians.

(the joke here was me getting on a ship)

Jacen

You can't expect a victim who is being extorted for money or XP to believe that the pirate is filled with only good intentions and is willing to negotiate. The pirate doesn't really have an IC reason to negotiate. You have to put yourself out there and show that there are other less painful options available. 
(This may have happened anyways. I don't have a log of what was said. Just commenting on the things said here)

We talk about RP having consequences. Perhaps the consequence of RPing pirates is that nobody else wants to use ships anymore, or wants to interact with pirates. This goes to part of my group PvP point in that its cool to be really good at what you do, but if you chase everyone away from it, or don't provide incentives or benefits for them to do it, you're gonna be a lonely bunch of friends with no one to play against.

Kinilan

Nim said:

I sure hope they accept witty banter, philosophical debates, and pointless arguments, I'm not allowed to trade with Mhaldorians.

(the joke here was me getting on a ship)

Fun fact: Cyrene's no trading with enemies law doesn't apply to PoM. I think it was Lilian that confirmed that for me.

Nim

Technically, unless things have changed, the trade embargo was just against Mhaldor. The other joke is that Nim'd use it as an excuse to fight even Ashtani pirates. :c

Geras

Well, pirates aside and back to the topic:

• Got a fancy new set of armour and sword from @Kresslack; now I look more Mhaldorian.  
• Got Housefavored for reaching level 80!   
• Hunted until I reached level 81 afterwards. 
• Learned that shrines look different when at lower essense.  
• Spent the rest of the time with the profile editor open and Mudlet manual on a tab trying to play with aliases, scripts, coloring/inserting text in the hopes of getting a better understanding of what I'm gonna be doing in combat. In order to do that, I spent most of the time jumping around, drawing/sheathing weapons, sketching/smudging runes everywhere, spamming nonsense, sipping/applying/eating random stuff... any thieves trying to steal from me would have thought I'm crazy!  

Zulah

Delphinus said:

Kresslack said:

Let me recount to you one fo Zulah's boardings, on Delphinus' ship no less. I was falcon tracking Delphinus from south of Ulangi, back when falcons could be used at sea, and was directing Zulah and crew towards his location up north of Lothos. They found him, boarded him, and certainly more than gold was taken. I recall Zulah mentioning that Delphinus had handed over quite a few batches of herbs as well. We were regularly instructed when boarding a ship with Zulah, to search the ship to clear the bait tanks and take maps and anything else of value that was sitting around.

1) Actually, it was just a few hundred plants. I told Zulah it was all I had.
2) It was a bit north of Ageiro. West of Sapience, not east of it.
3) The boarding party did search around, but reported that the door was locked and left it at that.

Incidentally, I was only stopped because I was charting a new island (Ageiro) at the time. It still managed to piss me off such that I took my map down for a while, but that's less a gauge of severity and more the fact that it happened at all.

Let him sail away for < 300 herbs total.

He still got mad and overreacted for a moment. After tensioned cooled it was fine.

Having dealt with it I understand both sides of the argument.
-"Don't force me to play my game your way"
-"Don't ignore the consequences of your actions in a fictional RP world"

That said, getting on a ship should be like "RPWHO ON" it's a place pretty much BUILT for RP. It takes a group to really enjoy and experience all that seafaring is. Thus offering a great RP avenue with your crew and potential encounters with other crews.

Just because you can afford a ship doesn't mean you're entitled to it's safety at all times in the fictional RP world you bought it in. If you want a house buy a house.

Ships aren't houses.

Also today I killed Mizik 1v1 and actually cheered at my desk. I got looks.
(Granted it was a fluke he had clotting off but for a brief moment I was a champion!)

Jacen

Zulah said:

Delphinus said:

Kresslack said:

Let me recount to you one fo Zulah's boardings, on Delphinus' ship no less. I was falcon tracking Delphinus from south of Ulangi, back when falcons could be used at sea, and was directing Zulah and crew towards his location up north of Lothos. They found him, boarded him, and certainly more than gold was taken. I recall Zulah mentioning that Delphinus had handed over quite a few batches of herbs as well. We were regularly instructed when boarding a ship with Zulah, to search the ship to clear the bait tanks and take maps and anything else of value that was sitting around.

1) Actually, it was just a few hundred plants. I told Zulah it was all I had.
2) It was a bit north of Ageiro. West of Sapience, not east of it.
3) The boarding party did search around, but reported that the door was locked and left it at that.

Incidentally, I was only stopped because I was charting a new island (Ageiro) at the time. It still managed to piss me off such that I took my map down for a while, but that's less a gauge of severity and more the fact that it happened at all.

Let him sail away for < 300 herbs total.

He still got mad and overreacted for a moment. After tensioned cooled it was fine.

Having dealt with it I understand both sides of the argument.
-"Don't force me to play my game your way"
-"Don't ignore the consequences of your actions in a fictional RP world"

That said, getting on a ship should be like "RPWHO ON" it's a place pretty much BUILT for RP. It takes a group to really enjoy and experience all that seafaring is. Thus offering a great RP avenue with your crew and potential encounters with other crews.

Just because you can afford a ship doesn't mean you're entitled to it's safety at all times in the fictional RP world you bought it in. If you want a house buy a house.

Ships aren't houses.

Also today I killed Mizik 1v1 and actually cheered at my desk. I got looks.
(Granted it was a fluke he had clotting off but for a brief moment I was a champion!)

Again, its cool to  have these opinions on how ruthless and risky sailing is, but a lot of the results of the PoM have been that people just don't want to sail. I'm sure some of this is due to sailing's time investment and inability to AFK, but even that plays back to consequences due to the actions of pirates.

You can try to change the system and environment and have lots of people to play with, or you can keep the course and stick to your views on how ships should be, until you're the only one left sailing, and what fun is that?

The point I've been driving for awhile now is that how things should work and how things are designed to work are much less relevant than how things actually work. Effect is more important than intent.

Kinilan

You can't lay the blame at the feet of the people that play the bad guys when the people that are supposed to play the good guys don't even bother.

Nim

TIL: If you get robbed, it's your fault for not handling the situation better and the cops' fault for not protecting you, not the robber's fault for taking your stuff.

Jacen

@kinilan it doesnt matter who you think is to blame (and surely you have to recognize that your opinion is biased, as sure as my own is biased). What matters is that the system isn't working to anyone's full desire. You can sit back and wait for a whole lotta people to miraculously start playing the game the way you want it to be played, or the way you think it should be played... or you can realize that that hasn't actually happened, and we should tweak the way these things operate to bring about a more desired state of play.

Gamden

Aside the fact that is was really mad earlier, and blabbered a bunch of stuff..

I still believe there is a place for pirates in achaean waters. It ads that extra excitement that i had when i started playing , afraid that someone might rob you

If you come into combat, sailing anything ..its your job to be informed and prepared.I was not, i did not do my checks And was caught red handed.

I could have payed 25k-50k and keep the role playing happening..but greed got the better part

This is what makes Achaea great...Great risk, great rewards

Aodfionn

What good guys are Kinilan even talking about..? 

Nim

and god, now @Jacen's blaming the system itself, blame is so complicated these days

(no but seriously, the number of people who don't realize that player behavior understanding/manipulation is a key part of good game design astounds me. it's not an EASY part, but it's still an incredibly fundamental one!)

Kinilan

Jacen said:

@kinilan it doesnt matter who you think is to blame (and surely you have to recognize that your opinion is biased, as sure as my own is biased). What matters is that the system isn't working to anyone's full desire. You can sit back and wait for a whole lotta people to miraculously start playing the game the way you want it to be played, or the way you think it should be played... or you can realize that that hasn't actually happened, and we should tweak the way these things operate to bring about a more desired state of play.

A little conflict and strong RP for those that want to be involved in the current system is more enjoyable and rewarding than no conflict at all. Not everyone bashes the Underworld. That doesn't mean it should be deleted.

Melodie

Just to clear this up: The entire time I was in the Mariners (little over three years), its never been the place of "Lets hunt/protect people from pirates!" Its been a place where people can learn about sailing/ships/lore, ask questions, communicate, etc. Some people do aggressive things, but its not expected or required by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps it would be nice to rework its purpose as it now stands, and maybe they have been in the few months I've not been there! Overall, though, its just not what I would call the "opposite" of the PoM. Not yet. 

Also please don't get this thread closed too, I would be much displeased. 

Kresslack

Why do we go through this same argument every year? Remember, people, that tradition is often little more than willful stupidity. Learn from your mistakes, be better prepared next time, and most importantly...

Kinilan

Kresslack said:

Why do we go through this same argument every year?...

Because every year the ships review gets pushed back another year?

Jacen

Kinilan said:

Jacen said:

@kinilan it doesnt matter who you think is to blame (and surely you have to recognize that your opinion is biased, as sure as my own is biased). What matters is that the system isn't working to anyone's full desire. You can sit back and wait for a whole lotta people to miraculously start playing the game the way you want it to be played, or the way you think it should be played... or you can realize that that hasn't actually happened, and we should tweak the way these things operate to bring about a more desired state of play.

A little conflict and strong RP for those that want to be involved in the current system is more enjoyable and rewarding than no conflict at all. Not everyone bashes the Underworld. That doesn't mean it should be deleted.

But you're clearly discontent with the way things are and have been working, on some level. You've said the source of that discontent was the other "faction", the good guys and the Mariners, because they aren't as engaging in the system as you'd like. Why can't we still have conflict but still make it a desirable system to engage in as a non-pirate?

Taraus

Jacen said:

but a lot of the results of the PoM have been that people just don't want to sail.
-
-
You can try to change the system and environment and have lots of people to play with

The first is the last thing I want, and the second is what I (have been doing)(am trying to) achieve. That's part of why I came in here to respond, despite my better judgement (bc arguing on the internet is lulz): to stress the other side of it - I'm a bad guy IC, I am not one IRL. I try to interact, engage, open doors - but I just can't make other people walk through. So to those of you out there who encounter pirates, I am encouraging you to CONTINUE THE DIALOGUE, AND SEE WHAT YOU GET.

Riashain

It is effing expensive to open a ship. I was probably one of the biggest supporters of ships leading up to inception. Not much interest note due to time investment required and potential for pirating. Just no interest in bring "harassed" after spending so much.

Simplification of my opinion but should convey its meaning. Can expand if necessary when I'm not on mobile.

Morelle

went fishing today...Learned how to work with ascii art and this was the result:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/1e6c06fa

Day well spent  

Kresslack

Morelle said:

went fishing today...Learned how to work with ascii art and this was the result:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/1e6c06fa

Day well spent  

That is fucking brilliant.

Balynne

I did a lot of things I never thought I'd do. Ever.

Tahquil

Just to weigh in on the Pirates thing, would a compromise be considered of just killing the people who don't pay but leave their ship afloat?

At the moment it seems it's not really a choice between sacrificing xp or gold. It's either you give the gold or they sink you, which just costs more gold and if you don't have a token some xp. There's not really the option and I think that frustrates people. If a person doesn't have the gold to pay they problem won't have the gold to raise the ship for a time and you've pretty much run them out from that aspect of the game.

There was some mention of houses before. I understand the analogy of being robbed. But that's not it, this is like someone burning down the house. The person has a huge investment that is essentially removed from them completely until they build again which might take a long while to get the money together. There is the small chance that they won't bother which increases with every time you guys come along and burn down the house.

Achimrst

Veil delivered food from atop the gatehouse in Eleusis.

Kresslack

Tahquil said:

Just to weigh in on the Pirates thing, would a compromise be considered of just killing the people who don't pay but leave their ship afloat?

At the moment it seems it's not really a choice between sacrificing xp or gold. It's either you give the gold or they sink you, which just costs more gold and if you don't have a token some xp. There's not really the option and I think that frustrates people. If a person doesn't have the gold to pay they problem won't have the gold to raise the ship for a time and you've pretty much run them out from that aspect of the game.

There was some mention of houses before. I understand the analogy of being robbed. But that's not it, this is like someone burning down the house. The person has a huge investment that is essentially removed from them completely until they build again which might take a long while to get the money together. There is the small chance that they won't bother which increases with every time you guys come along and burn down the house.

Ships are sunken when people refuse to pay because examples have to be made of people who opt to tell a pirate to, "Go fuck themselves", or otherwise laugh it off as not something to be concerned about and just token away. I came into contact with many various people as a pirate, and most of them didn't seem to care about the ship or crew in the first place, opting to laugh and token away to safety, thus abandoning their vessel and crew altogether. 

In instances such as that, where resistance or outright mockery is met, of course ships are going to be sunk. The main thing people overlook is that at the end of the day, it's business. While some pirates enjoy a deal of killing and sinking for those reasons alone, a lot of them are perfectly happy if you just listen to the terms and either agree to them, or at least make a reasonable attempt to negotiate them. 

Fear is a powerful tool at the disposal of those practicing piracy, because if they became feared and notorious enough, people are generally less inclined to give in to their demands. So letting ships go because their captain was irresponsible or didn't care enough about the ship or crew to defend it, or even buy token stores? That's just bad business. 

Ruth

I know someone who would let the captains choose to go down with their ship if negotiations failed, or allow them to cross gangplanks over to their ship while they sunk the ship. Said person is not a pirate, but a privateer.

Also, if they don't want to pay a harbour to salvage a ship, that's fine. All he needs to do is find people with the salvaging crane and the appropriate Seafaring specializations to sail out and raise their ship for them. It costs 0 gold but some time, and if you're in a High Clan with 200 members.. I'm sure you have access to more than enough people.

I don't, though.

Kresslack

Clarification: Fear is a powerful tool at the disposal of those practicing piracy, because if they became feared and notorious enough, people are generally less inclined to not give in to their demands.

Bluef

Bad business is attacking a ship before even requesting the currency or resources you wish to pirate though too. From personal experience, I've been on vessels where we're peremptorily attacked and pretty much need to abandon. No extortion ever took place.

One time after such an event, I think I received a letter reminding me about the need to pay the PoM its piracy dues (for lack of a better term) or risk getting sunk. But I had already escaped with my strongbox contents and the crew was saved through tokens, so the only thing I was out in the end (from not paying them) was a little bit of time returning to shore and the money to salvage and restock the ship (which is cheaper than paying pirates). I think I wrote something back to the pirate that effect.

In short, it's not so bad if you're attacked as long as you take precautions and don't lose your mind while its happening. But if pirates want to RP extorting people on the high seas, they might try forceboarding ships and making such requests before attacking because by the time the ship is aflame, etc. there's really no reason for a captain who is inexperienced in ship combat (or its recovery) to do anything beyond abandon the vessel or go down with it while making this face:  

Edit: It would be amazing to see a counter organization to the PoM gain footing. Give adventurers who sail the chance to join and be trained by these opposing factions of the high seas.