House Renaissance

Ourania

*waves her Hashan flag*

Vayne

Flying Crystal Fortress is 57% functional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hcRnq9lzvNM

Ourania

Flying crystal fortress underground, you mean. *sagenod*

May

Is there any chance that with the tradeskills going live now, the Merchants can have the limited classes removed? If not, I'll just keep sitting in my corner, but I have hope!

Rispok

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Austere

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Pff, wait in line. Joking!  Seriously, though, why not just open up all the houses?  At least then, we can all spend a ton of cash changing classes before you release multiclass and we regret it. 

Amarillys

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Have you asked your Patron?

Trilliana

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

False for two reasons. 1- Their main focus is arts. Visual, Performance, writing, The last "program" are the design paths. There's no requirement to have any tradeskill either

And there -is- class restriction because the City has class restrictions

Tael

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Are the Merchants necessarily staying a House?

It seems to me like it would make way more sense for them to become a High Clan.

Rispok

Tael said:

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Are the Merchants necessarily staying a House?

It seems to me like it would make way more sense for them to become a High Clan.

Not sure how to phrase this in a way that won't seem belittling, but yes we are, and no it wouldn't.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to make Shallam a High Clan? Also no.

Did it make sense to turn the Serpentlords, a house that had minimal activity and was hated by a significant portion of the game, into a high clan? Not my call.

The Merchants are a thriving institution with a rich history. They were one of two houses who actually took advantage of the change from guild to house. The other being the Bards, but... Yeah. The Bards. The Merchants work well as a house, because they have house related things that only houses can have. Examples include a hatchery, enchanting rooms, non-decay storage, a master crystal, credits, a tutor, denizen shops...

I don't want to sound like I'm just being defensive, but no, you're mistaken on this one.

Tael

I don't see how having a rich history or an active playerbase has much to do with it. Or how only houses can have those things you mention - I'm pretty sure being able to have things like those and own property was one of the main stated reasons high clans were added to the game in the first place. And it looks like post-renaissance houses don't necessarily have those things anymore and they're instead tied to cities rather than houses (I know it's that way in Mhaldor for instance).

I feel like you read my question as being about the the Merchants being demoted to a high clan, but high clans are functionally very similar to houses. It wouldn't be a demotion. And now that houses are much more closely tied to cities, casting citiless houses as high clans seems like it makes a certain amount of sense.

(I'm not really sure what the thing about Shallam was supposed to illustrate.)

Jukilian

It would be a demotion.

As far as I'm aware, High Clans don't get stuff like enchanting rooms, non-decay storage, Master Crystals, etc. That stuff is House/City stuff only. High Clans are not the same as Houses, Houses have much more structure to it.

Here's a question for you.

Why should the Merchants become a High Clan instead of a House? I see no reason why it needs to be done.

Kayeil

I think Merchants are perfectly fine as a House. Great alternative to some other Houses, great for rogues, and another option for forestals who may not wish to join an Eleusian House (their options are already quite slim). Plus they're active, run a lot of shops, and seem to be a consistently popular House.

Vayne

Tael said:

Rispok said:

Necroing this with a spin.

Is there a reason that the Merchants are being restricted for class, other than because cityless comes after city? The Virtuosi are basically knockoff merchants, and they have no class restrictions.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, @Valnurana‌

I have tried to think of a reason, but can't fathom one, why it's not as simple as just removing the limitations. We don't require total overhaul like the rest of the broken cities. We require zero overhaul, except having no class restrictions.

Are the Merchants necessarily staying a House?

It seems to me like it would make way more sense for them to become a High Clan.

Would you care to expound on how it makes way more sense to you? I see no reason that it should be demoted nor why the admins would be inclined to do so.

edit: my real question is why isn't Eleuss done yeeeeet.

Khairt

Don't worry. I'm sure it's Svein.

Rangor

It will be svein, Vayne. Soon now. Right? plz tecton, say it will be soon.

Nim

The merchants being a cityless house makes sense because it gives rogues house options, and because simply not having a city is about the only way to truly be neutral, thereby increasing the number of people you can deal with. On the contrary, why not make city-based houses into high clans, in cities Targossis or Cyrene, where houses represent gameplay style, and it would make sense for people to want to be in multiple at once?

Mishgul

It's always Svein

Tecton

We need to overhaul the way Certimene works for Delos houses, which requires that all of the other cities have their own inductor (that they get in the renaissance). Once all of the cities are done, then the cityless houses will be next!

Blujixapug

Nim said:

The merchants being a cityless house makes sense because it gives rogues house options, and because simply not having a city is about the only way to truly be neutral, thereby increasing the number of people you can deal with. On the contrary, why not make city-based houses into high clans, in cities Targossis or Cyrene, where houses represent gameplay style, and it would make sense for people to want to be in multiple at once?

Rogues have the option to join a city, just sayin.

If this sounds like the community finding its punching bag for some lighthearted mockery, it's more serious than that. I think it's important for organisations to be structured in such a way that they necessitate engagement: don't give players a choice (eg. going rogue) that you don't want them to take. This is a game design thing independent of the freedom players are given to choose how to structure the House they run. The three major circles of organisation most players will join are city, House, and order to a lesser degree: through those organisations you interact with other players, form relationships, gain objectives, engage with the game, generate reasons to continue playing the game. Members of cityless Houses, or cityless members of Houses, are a step removed from that engagement. Houseless rogues are a step further removed, relying far more on driving their own engagement, creating their own objectives, surrogate organisations like clans, and on incidental encounters with other players to form relationships.

We've just seen every city that's gone through the renaissance lose a House (or two, if you count Shallam's five), forcing every player in those cities to reshuffle into a smaller number of Houses, ultimately boosting each remaining House's activity. This is a huge, drastic change to make the game's population go further. I don't think the Merchants, or indeed the other two cityless Houses, are immune to such consideration.

You can see in Lusternia for example (ignoring its many problems with having too many cities/guilds and spreading its playerbase too thin) that it is a smaller game, they have a smaller playerbase. But they make their playerbase go further by designing the game to not accomodate rogues: leave a city and you lose the resource that provides power for many of your abilities. So all players are forced to remain in cities, making those cities and by extension city-based guilds more populous. Doubtless this alienates some players who would rather not play the game at all than play it and be unable to be a rogue, but I suspect many more say "oh well, didn't want to be a rogue that badly" and find a way to make it work.

Shirszae

I think its a bit too late for those considerations to take full root in Achaea. I honestly would be disappointed if they allowed the Merchants to get out of Hashan as a House proper only to demote them to a clan, even if it is a High Clan. 

Valaria

Tecton said:

We need to overhaul the way Certimene works for Delos houses, which requires that all of the other cities have their own inductor (that they get in the renaissance). Once all of the cities are done, then the cityless houses will be next!

More than 5 years ago or so, I recall Sarapis or other coder once said that achaea's code was the spaghetti codes that was so messy. It probably cleaner than it was in the past (or still is...)

Rispok

Tecton said:

We need to overhaul the way Certimene works for Delos houses, which requires that all of the other cities have their own inductor (that they get in the renaissance). Once all of the cities are done, then the cityless houses will be next!

Thanks for explaining the process behind the delay. I can't say I'm thrilled, but at least I now I have an understanding for the decision and a way to explain it when people badger me and the rest of the council.

Jukilian

Well, this just got unpinned.

IS THIS SOME SORT OF DARK OMEN?

Kygo

@Tecton, think you mentioned in the news or here on the forums somewhere that since knight changes are completed, the Renaissance is going to move a lot faster. How much faster are we talking? You gotta at least give me enough time to get Sempai! Excited to see what the changes bring to Ashtan

Austere

Kygo said:

@Tecton, think you mentioned in the news or here on the forums somewhere that since knight changes are completed, the Renaissance is going to move a lot faster. How much faster are we talking? You gotta at least give me enough time to get Sempai! Excited to see what the changes bring to Ashtan

I am still leaning towards them deleting all old houses left.  Seems to be the trend thus far, so i don't really think Sempai is going to mean much for long.  Doing the work now will show that you're interested in the future, though. Sempai reqs were always fun too. I have done then three times across characters. (Assuming they have not drastically changed)

Sarathai

Austere said:

Kygo said:

@Tecton, think you mentioned in the news or here on the forums somewhere that since knight changes are completed, the Renaissance is going to move a lot faster. How much faster are we talking? You gotta at least give me enough time to get Sempai! Excited to see what the changes bring to Ashtan

I am still leaning towards them deleting all old houses left.  Seems to be the trend thus far, so i don't really think Sempai is going to mean much for long.

Soon, in Achaea, nobody will notice Sempai.

Morthif

Lies, @Rohai will be a Kohai for life

Kygo

Want to have the title just as an accomplishment. Completing the Ashura Academy of War is pretty uncommon unless you have some dedication. Most phase out at Kohai

Jacen

Austere said:

Sempai reqs were always fun too. I have done then three times across characters. (Assuming they have not drastically changed)

Oh? Never been Ashuran, would you mind sharing what those reqs are, or what makes them fun?