House Renaissance

Kresslack

Nim said:

@Kresslack: You're telling a blademaster that those puny things that take 10+ hits to break a single limb are "swords?" Oversized dirks, maybe...

I'm not exactly sure why it takes you 10+ hits to break a limb. Only takes me at most 6-7. Stances play a small part in that, as does your level in TwoArts (and probably Weaponry in general), considering those 'puny things' are all base stat swords. So if it takes you 10+ hits to break, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but limb prep ain't one.

Nim

@Kresslack: Wrong implication, silly. :c

Although I have reported that it can take as many as twelve or so, if you're in Thyr and trying to break with only off-limb damage, and they're a really artied out dragon.

Kresslack

Bronislav said:

Kresslack said:

This might be digressing a bit, but if we're talking cultural diversity, by standards, Cyrene is likely Canada and Ashtan is probably South Africa. Just saying.

You know, my response to this was initially irritation. And then I actually Wikipedia'd South Africa. And now I'm looking at Canada. The comparisons are telling to the point where I'm not entirely sure where you're getting at.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY BRAIN, SIR!?

My work here is done.

Aerek

I imagine each city can hash out its own requirements for Knighthood, so we don't need to debate it endlessly here. My hope is simply that the cities can manage to collaborate and settle on roughly the same criteria, as the original Knight Houses did. (Which is a tall order, I know) While I do personally support the knight-only Knighthood tradition, I would willingly embrace any-class Knighthood if it meant that all 6 cities could agree on some universal standards for their Knights.

Carmain actually started a clan for that exact purpose, which I tried my best to get off the ground and running. I'd be happy to re-kindle it or hand it over to someone else if it could still serve that purpose.

Sarapis

Ernam said:

I think instead of using Houses, class-specific organizations could now use clans, for people who want to learn more about their class or share some form of class-based roleplay with others.

Houses stopped providing this when they stopped being Guilds (and promptly became multiclass), so the loss of what little remains of the importance of class in a character's identity shouldn't come as a huge loss.

Perhaps the Shadowsnakes or Naga could try forming a high clan, which only permits members of the serpent class to join (from all three of their cities Houses), would be a good way to continue their legacy and traditions, as well as provide some of the identity and fun that Guilds once provided.

@Tecton, this may even be a good time to consider bringing back the CLASS channel, or something akin to it.  I know it had pretty limited usefulness at the time, but now that every House is going to allow all classes, the concentration of each class in each house is going to be quite small.  Thus, it could be really hard for new players (or old) to get into their class, both roleplay and skill-wise.  CLASS channel or class-based clans could really help in this regard.

Not sure why so many people disagreed. I know both myself and Tecton agree that one of the downsides of switching to the new system is that it'll make it even harder for newbies to get class-specific combat advice. There are many advantages to the new system, but nothing is without its downsides.

Our classes are complicated and hard to learn well, particularly in PK. I think implementing OOC class-based clans and and re-implementing an OOC class-based channel is an idea worth considering.

Jukilian

With regards to Knighthood, Cyrene could as a whole make the High Clan thing for Knights, and have it as maybe an extra curricular program that people can enroll into, despite their House affiliation. And have it controlled not by the City itself, perse, but Cyrenian Knights from any/all of the Cyrene Houses. Perhaps have as an addition to the Renaissance, this Knight org has some form of Estate for them to make use of (maybe something like public grounds somewhere).

No idea of that's a good suggestion though. Can't say my Knight classed characters have achieved Knighthood.

Liane

I have a really weird question, but what exactly is multi-classing? I think this sort of pertains to the House Renaissance, because that is why it is happening, right? I mean I guess my main thing is why would you want to be two classes, wouldn't that make things even more complex? 

Also are houses become simplier, or more complex? I'm not really sure so much vagueness, or perhaps I have just been out of the loop for a really long time. 

Jules

I like this idea overall, but I can't see knightly organizations surviving it.  They'd survive in name, if the cities gave them clans and an estate as has been mentioned, but that's probably it. The only thing that could probably save them is a well-considered exemption, the kind that requires people to maintain trans knight skills in order to learn a single lesson in another class, and that may not even be a feasible or desirable idea in the grander scheme.  Then again, maybe knightly organizations as we know them won't be a good fit with multi-class period, and as great as they've been, maybe it's going to be time to let go. 

Jules

The Maldaathi are in a particularly difficult spot, as their honour code (when actually in force) has always put them somewhat at odds with Mhaldor as a whole (especially when Mhaldor's politics shift towards a pure PK player mindset, as they do from time to time).

Accipiter

@sarapis the problem with clans is it is hard to get into them. There is no Certimene for clans and the majority of true-newbies probably wouldn't know about them anyway. Implementing a class channel would be the best solution for that problem, provided it was explicitly stated to be OOC and had some form of loose moderation.

As for the houses, consolidating the playerbase is nothing but a good thing, as long as the three houses have specific, seperate ideologies, I have made several toons that are  in empty houses and it makes me want to not play them. 

We will see how the implementation goes with Cyrene, but the only real way it can go IMO without causing alot of ire is to make 3 new Houses instead of exploding the excess and saying move into one of the others.

At any rate, please keep the news boards for any houses that vanish . There is alot of history there that I would hate to go away. Even if they are never made public, knowing that they exist in some form would be a great comfort to me at least.

Kresslack

Sarapis said:

Ernam said:

I think instead of using Houses, class-specific organizations could now use clans, for people who want to learn more about their class or share some form of class-based roleplay with others.

Houses stopped providing this when they stopped being Guilds (and promptly became multiclass), so the loss of what little remains of the importance of class in a character's identity shouldn't come as a huge loss.

Perhaps the Shadowsnakes or Naga could try forming a high clan, which only permits members of the serpent class to join (from all three of their cities Houses), would be a good way to continue their legacy and traditions, as well as provide some of the identity and fun that Guilds once provided.

@Tecton, this may even be a good time to consider bringing back the CLASS channel, or something akin to it.  I know it had pretty limited usefulness at the time, but now that every House is going to allow all classes, the concentration of each class in each house is going to be quite small.  Thus, it could be really hard for new players (or old) to get into their class, both roleplay and skill-wise.  CLASS channel or class-based clans could really help in this regard.

Not sure why so many people disagreed. I know both myself and Tecton agree that one of the downsides of switching to the new system is that it'll make it even harder for newbies to get class-specific combat advice. There are many advantages to the new system, but nothing is without its downsides.

Our classes are complicated and hard to learn well, particularly in PK. I think implementing OOC class-based clans and and re-implementing an OOC class-based channel is an idea worth considering.

Some Houses already have this. The Maldaathi even took it a step further and made an OOC forum (but it never got seriously used).  Still, I know a few Houses which have clans like that to help people set up their reflexes and study combat in an OOC learning environment. 

Ernam

nvm   (I had referred to multi-classing (the old use of the word) in 2 posts above Liane's question, which is why I assumed she was asking about that, not the "new" meaning of the word)

Accipiter

Ernam said:

Liane said:

I have a really weird question, but what exactly is multi-classing? [...]

Multi-classing is referring to the change made years ago which allowed Houses to have as many classes as they liked.  Prior to multi-classing, each house was designed for a specific class (A house full of paladins, a house full of occultists, a house full of serpents, etc).  While this did have the downside of restricting a lot of roleplay options, it also had a -lot- of positive benefits, such as restricting people's behavior (such as abuse of class skills), without needing hard-coded changes every time an abusable ability was exposed.  It also -created- a lot of roleplay value, because you -had- to roleplay to be most classes.  You couldn't just be a "lol priest".  You had to be in the Priest house, and you had to play ball, or you were out.

One of the other benefits (which I miss a lot) was the sense of identity that came with being in a Guild and sharing a class with everyone in it.  Also, it made learning a class a lot easier, since everyone in your House/Guild was the same class as you.

Multiclassing in this context refers to an upcoming change where a character can have multiple classes, theoretically switching between them at will. Details have been denied (the answer is mostly that they haven't been decided yet and so they don't want to share a work in progress) but that is the gist of what we have been told about it so far.

Sarapis

No, that's not what multi-classing is referring to.

Multi-classing is referring to the upcoming ability to for characters to have multiple classes that they can switch between.

(Ninja'd by Accipiter.)

Liane

Accipiter said:

Ernam said:

Liane said:

I have a really weird question, but what exactly is multi-classing? [...]

Multi-classing is referring to the change made years ago which allowed Houses to have as many classes as they liked.  Prior to multi-classing, each house was designed for a specific class (A house full of paladins, a house full of occultists, a house full of serpents, etc).  While this did have the downside of restricting a lot of roleplay options, it also had a -lot- of positive benefits, such as restricting people's behavior (such as abuse of class skills), without needing hard-coded changes every time an abusable ability was exposed.  It also -created- a lot of roleplay value, because you -had- to roleplay to be most classes.  You couldn't just be a "lol priest".  You had to be in the Priest house, and you had to play ball, or you were out.

One of the other benefits (which I miss a lot) was the sense of identity that came with being in a Guild and sharing a class with everyone in it.  Also, it made learning a class a lot easier, since everyone in your House/Guild was the same class as you.

Multiclassing in this context refers to an upcoming change where a character can have multiple classes, theoretically switching between them at will. Details have been denied (the answer is mostly that they haven't been decided yet and so they don't want to share a work in progress) but that is the gist of what we have been told about it so far.

Okay, I was aware of what Multi-Classing was in the older context 'cause I was there when guilds were around. Though I never really got into the game all that far 'cause I was really young and my vocabulary was kind of poor. 

On the other note of Multi-Classing, that sounds like that is going to be really interesting. I'm not really sure if there are any other classes I want to be, but I'm curious as to how it will pan out. Sorry for de-railing the thread. 

Jamethiel

@Accipiter‌ - they haven't "denied" the details; I think the "details" are wooly enough at the moment for that to be a moving target.

Sarapis

The Arcane Kindred are going to merge with the CIJ actually, renaming themselves to the Arcane Clown Posse. 

Naah

I may get slapped for the comparison, unsure..

But is the multi-classing going to be like in Aetolia where you can switch between your selected classes every hour or so, and buffs will not transfer over? (Diamondskin, scales, etc)

Edit: And more on topic: Is the geography of each city going to under go drastic changes as Houses are added/removed?

Ernam

Kresslack said:

Sarapis said:

Ernam said:

I think instead of using Houses, class-specific organizations could now use clans, for people who want to learn more about their class or share some form of class-based roleplay with others.

[...]

Not sure why so many people disagreed. I know both myself and Tecton agree that one of the downsides of switching to the new system is that it'll make it even harder for newbies to get class-specific combat advice. There are many advantages to the new system, but nothing is without its downsides.

[...]

Some Houses already have this. The Maldaathi even took it a step further and made an OOC forum (but it never got seriously used).  Still, I know a few Houses which have clans like that to help people set up their reflexes and study combat in an OOC learning environment. 

Not sure why this got turned into OOC clans and whatnot, but my concept of a class-based clan was primarily for roleplaying purposes.   Being able to ask about how to use your abilities and so on is just one of the many benefits of such a clan.

Sarapis

Asking how to use your abilities is exactly what I'm thinking of, but there'd be no need for any pretense of IC. What's helpful is to be able to simply ask how something works, player to player.

Liane

So are players just reassigned a new house based on the house they are currently in or are you simply houseless? Actually with this new change is there any thought that maybe players might switch cities due to the changing of houses?

Kayeil

I think an OOC class channel would be great. The Shaman class currently has a player moderated Shaman Clan, and we try to keep up with CLASSWHO to offer induction to new Shamans if they are interested. It would be easier to have an OOC class channel that comes with joining the class, because it's less pressure for us to look out for all of the new players, or even the older ones who may be interested in joining for information or mentoring.

Jules

In Cyrene, I like the idea of the Army becoming more of a "fraternity of warriors" (although I worry that it could translate into too much emphasis on rank, which works in the Wardens, but is antithetical to Cyrene in general).  If it went well, the Army really could be even better than any one house in terms of combat questions exactly because all of the people who might be able to answer your questions are there and are probably more inclined to care about answering than was ever the case on class.  Also, many people didn't want to speak on class due to security/privacy concerns as I remember. 

Naah

Jules said:

In Cyrene, I like the idea of the Army becoming more of a "fraternity of warriors" (although I worry that it could translate into too much emphasis on rank, which works in the Wardens, but is antithetical to Cyrene in general).  If it went well, the Army really could be even better than any one house in terms of combat questions exactly because all of the people who might be able to answer your questions are there and are probably more inclined to care about answering than was ever the case on class.  Also, many people didn't want to speak on class due to security/privacy concerns as I remember. 

Would there be hazing? I'd totally join if there was hazing.

Yes, yes, I feel like there should be more emphasis on the ART.

Orzaansyn

Back to the main topic, even if personnaly I hate the idea that my precious Monastery will close and that overly upsets me but there is anyway nothing to do about it, my only serious concern is what will happen in the meantime. Now, noone has reasons to work and even try to do anything for their House, just like already a vast majority of people do not give a damn to newbie programs because, anyway it will change.

Arador

Late to the party but I do love this entire idea. Classes determining what type of character you are has always bugged me. In some classes it was worse than others but in general this is a very good move. For example you are an Infernal or Runewarden in Mhaldor, you HAVE to join Maldaathi and you HAVE to be honourable etc. That is fine for me as that is the character I play anyway but the fact that your class gets to determine your conduct has always bothered me. What if I am a Serpent in Mhaldor but I want to focus on Dueling with honour? These are very obvious and stand out cases but I think the point is clear enough.

As for Knighthood itself, I would like to echo @Aerek completely. I do not care what class you are, if you adhere to the principles of Knighthood and worked hard towards the title, then you certainly can wear it. I do not want to see Knighthood used like a city rank so no Sir Elton John for his contributions to the arts. In that regard, I agree with keeping it tied in to how you conduct yourself etc as with the current Knight Houses.

@Aerek, Interestingly the Council of Knighthood might actually become extremely relevant now as a way for this standard to be agreed upon and checked between cities.

tl;dr: LOVE the idea! Now get the Council dusted off and made into a High Clan.

Lala

A part of me hopes the Maldaathi remains, I have a soft spot for the house. I remember the guild well.

Sherazad

> @Orzaansyn said:
> Back to the main topic, even if personnaly I hate the idea that my precious Monastery will close and that overly upsets me but there is anyway nothing to do about it, my only serious concern is what will happen in the meantime. Now, noone has reasons to work and even try to do anything for their House, just like already a vast majority of people do not give a damn to newbie programs because, anyway it will change.

I have thought about it too but even with all the efforts I have invested in the house, I realised that I wouldn't really mind if the EF would disappear if whatever system we have would be more efficient for Mhaldor's small population. Members can still work to make the house memorable to people through showing the values that make EF unique (I was thinking of setting up cooperative endeavours with other houses to show how we value brotherhood before real life required my focus).

As for the requirements, just be your usual persistent self in encouraging people to do their tasks since the change to houses doesn't have a fate yet (it honestly could take more time than people are guessing). I'm sure Mhaldor's leaders would be considerate of people's progress anyway.

Josoul

@Tecton‌ Questions: 

-What will happen to news boards of Houses that will merge? a: both deleted and a new one set up, b: only one deleted, the "larger/winner/whatever" of the two Houses keeps the news they had, c: all boards of all Houses are reset, d: you will send a link for a .zip copy of the deleted boards to active members of those Houses in a message to download e: you will convert the deleted news boards in journals/manuscripts and add then in the merged House library or f: other? 

-Then same question about libraries inside estates.

-Will we get some time between the decision "<city> will have House A, B and C now on" and House D estate, news, bank, shops, etc becoming inaccessible? 

Ernam

The news things seems like something players could handle themselves, if they're interested.