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Comments
> I like how this thread is already tending toward Hashan on page 2. So, do you think the Lotus can absorb all the best Serpent Lords?
Does the Lotus even need to merge with them?
I think it would be amazingly beneficial if the Serpent Lords took this opportunity to step away from being a "Serpent" House, and instead become a House based on an ideal such as Assassins of Darkness. With that ideal, the inclusion of other Classes can be justified to an extent and they keep their roleplay of being a House of thieves, assassins, and spies.
Just my two cents on that topic. Lotus and SL have very different morals and ideals - I don't see how a merger would be a good idea for either of them.
Yeah, I agree, this totally isn't the place to discuss house renaissa-
oh.
@Iocun All I was trying to say is that suggesting how it should go, i.e. proposals as well as questions would probably be more productive than just saying it sucks. That doesn't really do anything for anybody. E.g. if you want an event for your House/City so that Iocun can roll with it in an IC manner, then what kind of event do you want? How should it go? While the nitty-gritty will be the city/house-leaders and the Garden, this is the opportunity to voice everything from everybody else so what you need and want can get included in the planning.
Just wondering how that could be done viably.
Well, since Cyrene goes first...
I really like the way the Knightly houses are conceptualized around the principle of Knighthood and the challenges leading up to it. The concept of Knightly honor and all that comes with it. I think it would be wonderful to preserve intact, or mostly intact, the traditions of Knighthood in each City. There is so much history, tradition, and thought that's been put into making someone into a Sir or Dame, I think it would be a damn shame to just throw it out. The Knights have been pretty adamant about class membership, (in Cyrene it's been Runies and Paladins only,) but aside from illogical combinations such as Jester Knights, I think it would be extremely important to an individual City's continued history and culture to keep Knighthood. The people that go through gruelling training to earn that Sir or Dame probably feel on top of the world when they get the title and start kicking butt as full Knights. If this were taken out, a crucial and vibrant part of the fantasy world would be lost.
Just my two cents.
If the Mojushai cease to exist, I want it to involve Matsuhama's ghost wandering as a blind martial artist. He will challenge each of the Mojushai in turn, win, and promptly declare the Hold broken and unfit to meet His might, perhaps unaware of the shadow of divine power backing it.
If they merge with another house, I demand a similar tournament backing the decision. Also many waterfalls of the iciest cold temperatures, and at least five philosophical debates on each core concept brought forward both by the other house (or houses), and an infinite number of them going forward on the resulting house.
If they continue to exist, then I want nothing significant to change or happen, because serenity, contemplation, and, of course, enlightenment.
(ETA: the hidden point behind this is that it's really hard to ask for things if we don't actually know what's going to happen, and also I like the Mojushai)
Make a clan for those wishing to pursue knighthood in Cyrene. Problem solved!
@Aalm: I personally think it'd be cool if knighthood became a bit more distilled - less about having the right class, and much more about having the right attitude and being able to consistently prove it. If any class can become a knight (and once multiclass comes around, short of a silly "you're only a knight in knight mode" rule, this will inevitably become true anyway, so it's best to prepare for it I think), then I think raising the difficulty of becoming one might be in order as well, to keep it as a relatively uncommon symbol of prestige and being awesome.
@Arcturus : You and I both know a Knightly house can't be wiped out and replaced with a clan. If High Clans were beefed up with a lot of new options, then perhaps yes. I don't think the full experience can exist without factors such as raising funds, having a hall, and being able to build icons, which Knights are often really well-situated to defend.
I never said anything sucks. I have voiced an opinion on how I hope it will not be implemented and how I hope it will be implemented instead. I said that I'd prefer houses to go with a boom and stated the reasons why I think so. Now, I agree that this isn't the same as a detailed, fleshed-out idea, but I thought this thread was more for a general discussion of the whole idea, than a discussion of what to do specifically with each house, as that's probably beyond the scope of the forum and should be handled by "those in charge". If my posts are really seen as unconstructive and whiney, I apologize, but it's the best I can do.
→My Mudlet Scripts
@Nim : To some extent it's possible and has been done, as there are non-Knight Sirs and Dames around. But some classes seem incompatible with Knighthood due to class philosophy, especially Jesters. From my observation, there's a lot of tradition involved, it would be really unfortunate to have to dump all that. If it could be integrated into the new system, that would be nice, but to dump it entirely, I don't think would be good.
Who said anything about replacing them? Just change them to be clan organisations run by the city.
The Knights in Cyrene are there to protect Cyrene. Cyrene can have an org-owned clan that continues that tradition... with all the same help files, all the same requirements, all the same ranks, etc etc.
I'm sure you'll still have Icons to readily defend. Will they be your very own? Probably if you do decided to join a house that has one. But if you choose not to, that's your choice.
The biggest part of being a Knight is the 'grueling training you go through to earn that Sir or Dame and feel on top of the world'
^^ all of that can be done... in a city owned CLAN. You can make it a requirement to get all these things in this CLAN done so you can have that title...
@Aalm: A class is just a set of actions. The jester example might be a bit extreme, but if there can be Mhaldorian or Targossian jesters, then why not knightly jesters? If you can manage to uphold honor and excellence both on the battlefield and off, that's the main thing.
I get that there are traditions that say otherwise, but they strongly depend on a character being tied to a single class. What happens when you knight someone who's a runewarden, and they decide to multiclass as a jester or some other seemingly unknightly class?
I don't quite agree with the Knightly jesters.... but I don't disagree with em either.
Think of a Knight, what do you see? Someone who's in shining armour? Knight classes, you know. Those guys. They are knight classes for a reason.... Tradition.
Yes it could be made into a clan or just a city thing, but then you have people who have striven all of their IG lives to do all this work and make themselves, rp themselves, into being the perfect Knight. Relegated to 'well anyone can do it because of multiclass' or 'the city can handle it' when some cities have problems recognizing their own hard workers because of slightly less than perfected systems of favours.
Even if it were a Knight house of some sort, and the house being primarily combat, the Wardens wont exist. Period. Take it to a clan doesn't work, because then it's a clan while people are focused on their city or houses. The city, for above mentioned reasons, and city rules have far too much on their plates already to try and work rp in with a knight training system.
The Wardens put years into developing what it calls for in Knights. As a New House maybe they'll keep up with the 'militaristic style' but even then, you'll likely only have rank going to the best combatants.... who then will likely only be a handful at best in Cyrene... something that has nearly killed a House... because Peace.
Knight isn't a class, however, it's a cultural classification based on the possession and proficiency of a specific set of skills and moral code. Whether you gain other skills vial multiclassing isn't entirely relevant, so long as you at least retain a knight-type class and that sense of honour, IMO. Hashan did this thing a while back where they were knighting Serpents, which steers it away from recognition of prowess with arms and a moral standing, and more into a ceremonial, largely pretentious title giving like they do in England now.
While I'm not in a House, and never have been, it'd be a shame if the Knightly Houses, like the Maldaathi, the Wardens, and the former Paladin House, went the way of the dodo. Restricting certain classes, like Jesters, from joining, would be one of the things to hash out. I can see having cities like Targossas, Cyrene, and Mhaldor keeping their Knight Houses as one of the three, with I. G. justification.
Knighthood will never be relegated to 'anyone can do it just because multiclass.' Belonging to a knighthood class is the easiest part of the process. Difficulty actually starts afterwards, from what I've seen/heard. So in that regard, little will change. People will still need to put an effort, be them serpents or runewardens.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
That's how it is in general, from my experience, not just in Cyrene. Also, my point was, regardless of the martial prowess and moral standing, it's generally understood that being a Knight comes with the underlying requirement of being of a knightly (referring to skillset) class(Infernal/Runewarden/Blademaster), the common combat denominator being that they train specifically with swords....like a Knight, and they generally required to conduct themselves within a certain manner. I added BM because it started being included in knight programs when it was released, and is now slowly being tested out to further extent with this latest announcement.
It would be good to see, as a result of this change, that Knighthood would retain its practical sense and traditional culture of training and not devolve into a honourary merit based on general city service. This is easily managed with clans, and has been done to some extent for years (Knights of Hashan | Steel Bastion) already.
Also, why did the Garden have to start with Cyrene? Nothing gets done there and they don't even want an active Patron. Way to slow down the system :(
@Iocun Gotcha. Perhaps my misunderstanding then. I agree it should be discussed and hammered out as far as implementation. And I wholeheartedly agree that something dramatic should need to happen to somewhat "realistically" shift everything. As far as an actual idea - I am not an expert on Cyrenian history or philosophy and it would have to be tailored to each City.
Probably the main thing to keep it believable IC would I think to have some event that would make the City and House Leaders realize that everybody would be better off if Houses were focused around purpose instead of Classes. This would make them more dynamically able to achieve their purpose and thus forward the purpose of the City.
Could open the door for some historic RP events if maybe shades of ancient Cyrenian heros started following and speaking to City and House Leaders that times must change. Or a new future was dawning, or whatever. That could also be super-lame, too. Could be battle-oriented or purely RP or whatever. As it'll have to make sense for that city/house they'll have to give some feedback - which could be made part of the planning when coordinating with the Garden.
I honestly worked my arse off to get Knighted. I don't know the full extent of what happened with Aerek, but when I was HoN - which was before I was knighted - if I had issue with something, I talked to Ariettie or Naomh (who were my superiors at the time) and got it straightened out or discussed. If I did any sort of arse-kissing, it's because that is how I am and it would be perceived as ass-kissing because, generally speaking, all I want to do is help.
As for active Patron, I think Scarlatti is active, and even Phaestus was insanely active when I was still around as Senator, but if They aren't active, it's not really the city/player-base's fault IMO.
It might be because Cyrene has more culturally diverse interests beyond "Murder X amount of people who disagree with me every month." WHOOPS, DID I SAY THAT OUT LOUD!?
This might be digressing a bit, but if we're talking cultural diversity, by standards, Cyrene is likely Canada and Ashtan is probably South Africa. Just saying.
I think perhaps people are misunderstanding my point a tad bit. When I say jester knights are legitimate, I mean people who bend over backward making the concept of a jester work in the theme of being a symbol of excellence, a servant of Cyrene (Wardens) or Sartan (Maldaathi), and honorable in the course of all things.
If you go around acting like the world's worst CIJ recruit, you should probably fail to get knighted. It should not be because your class skill set has things like tarot cards or puppets, but because you're a child not a Sir or a Dame.
Likewise, as many shadowy, thieving, scoundrel-type serpents as there are, it is entirely possible to be an upstanding, moral, master-of-arms style serpent. Just ask @Iocun (but don't tell him he's actually a serpent, just ensure him that dirks are definitely a weapon specialization option in Tekura, and Telepathy totally lets you hypnotise people, and of course the control one gets over ones own body from being a Kaido master lets you process and create venoms)
Ironically, the class debate is not my major concern in regards to Knighthood. For me, what made Knighthood special was the cross-faction respect that has always been attached to it. The Wardens, Maldaathi, and Templar (RIP) have always looked at each other with a measure of kinship, and have worked together over the years to ensure that each of the three Houses' standards were up to par with the other two. Unlike most House titles, which don't mean anything outside of that particular House, Knighthood was something recognized openly by all three Knight Houses, if not the entire world. Even if the Maldaathi were my mortal enemies, I know they've shed the same blood and sweat that I did to earn that title, and there is some mutual trust and respect between us because of it.
Knighthood becoming a city-centric thing makes sense to me, but what will make me sad is if there's no established universal standards or regulation. If one city requires its Knights to act honorably, train in combat, and do all of the stereotypical knightly things, but another city doesn't care about honor or combat and uses Knighthood as a generic city award, (modern UK-style) then Knights will lose that sense of brotherhood and mutual respect, and that's what I liked most about the Knighthood RP thing.
TL;DR: I can live with a "Sir Monk" or "Sir Magi" if they act honorably and train in combat. It's the "Sir Accountant" and "Sir Popular" that worry me.
Might be because simply living by a moral code or having skill in your class have never been the only requirements for knighthood. The long-time accepted pre-requisites for knighthood have generally been a) training hard and become proficient with a sword(s) and b) being of a class that utilizes sword(s) as their primary weapon. That's basically what it's always boiled down to mechanically, which, in my opinion, should be preserved, not dissolved into an honorary system to reward good behaviour or combat prowess.
@Kresslack: You're telling a blademaster that those puny things that take 10+ hits to break a single limb are "swords?" Oversized dirks, maybe...
You know, my response to this was initially irritation. And then I actually Wikipedia'd South Africa. And now I'm looking at Canada. The comparisons are telling to the point where I'm not entirely sure where you're getting at.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY BRAIN, SIR!?