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House Renaissance

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  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iocun said:

    Are you saying we should all be forced to RP that our characters "realized that things are bad and need to change"? That would be a pretty big thing to ask...

    No, I'm saying that would be a viable option to explain it as an RP'd realisation between -leaders- and the Garden as to why the change was needed, and how it's brought about. Whether someone would want to aim to be directly involved in that instance would be up to them, but you can't force people to RP anything (and few enough do so to begin with, it would seem).



  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Unfortunately I think its gonna have to be "shit goes BOOM" in Hashan, because Hashan ain't gonna take no shit from Divine :( I think a pretty small minority will be fine with it, but a lot of people will raise hell for a long time if its  not a forced change that was out of the leadership's control.

    image
    HaldonMay
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 2014

    I think instead of using Houses, class-specific organizations could now use clans, for people who want to learn more about their class or share some form of class-based roleplay with others.

    Houses stopped providing this when they stopped being Guilds (and promptly became multiclass), so the loss of what little remains of the importance of class in a character's identity shouldn't come as a huge loss.

    Perhaps the Shadowsnakes or Naga could try forming a high clan, which only permits members of the serpent class to join (from all three of their cities Houses), would be a good way to continue their legacy and traditions, as well as provide some of the identity and fun that Guilds once provided.


    @Tecton, this may even be a good time to consider bringing back the CLASS channel, or something akin to it.  I know it had pretty limited usefulness at the time, but now that every House is going to allow all classes, the concentration of each class in each house is going to be quite small.  Thus, it could be really hard for new players (or old) to get into their class, both roleplay and skill-wise.  CLASS channel or class-based clans could really help in this regard.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        AyvaEthoas
      1. IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited May 2014
        Kresslack said:
        Iocun said:

        Are you saying we should all be forced to RP that our characters "realized that things are bad and need to change"? That would be a pretty big thing to ask...

        No, I'm saying that would be a viable option to explain it as an RP'd realisation between -leaders- and the Garden as to why the change was needed, and how it's brought about.

        It's not IC leaders that decide on it though. Different houses have entirely different leadership structures. Most aren't totalitarian dictatorships where the HL decides everything and Gods often don't even have a say in house politics, officially. It won't be the houses' IC legislative groups that decide on this change.


        The group of leaders that actually are involved in discussing this change is not a well-defined IC group, but an OOC thing - similar to the ACC discussing combat changes.

        Kuruvar
      2. VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Jacen said:

        Unfortunately I think its gonna have to be "shit goes BOOM" in Hashan, because Hashan ain't gonna take no shit from Divine :( I think a pretty small minority will be fine with it, but a lot of people will raise hell for a long time if its  not a forced change that was out of the leadership's control.

        Nothings has to go "boom" necessarily. The process is not unilateral, the city and house leaders will be intimately be involved in the creation of the new houses.

        image
        Tharvis
      3. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iocun said:
        Kresslack said:
        Iocun said:

        Are you saying we should all be forced to RP that our characters "realized that things are bad and need to change"? That would be a pretty big thing to ask...

        No, I'm saying that would be a viable option to explain it as an RP'd realisation between -leaders- and the Garden as to why the change was needed, and how it's brought about.

        It's not IC leaders that decide on it though. Different houses have entirely different leadership structures. Most aren't totalitarian dictatorships where the HL decides everything and Gods often don't even have a say in house politics, officially. It won't be the houses' IC legislative groups that decide on this change.

        They don't get to decide on the change, correct, as this has already been decided. It's going to happen. My point was that how it happens and effects the Houses of each city, as well as that city itself, is something the leadership of those organisations are going to clearly have a say in. Hence why it was mentioned they're doing this on a per city basis and having a sit down with those leaders prior to making any changes.



      4. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Ernam said:

        I think instead of using Houses, class-specific organizations could now use clans, for people who want to learn more about their class or share some form of class-based roleplay with others.

        Houses stopped providing this when they stopped being Guilds (and promptly became multiclass), so the loss of what little remains of the importance of class in a character's identity shouldn't come as a huge loss.

        Perhaps the Shadowsnakes or Naga could try forming a high clan, which only permits members of the serpent class to join, would be a good way to continue their legacy and traditions, as well as provide some of the identity and fun that Guilds once provided.

        This isn't necessarily true. Many Houses have long offered clans for the purpose of either historical study or offensive training and coordination under the guise of House affiliated clan academies/councils.



      5. IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited May 2014

        Regardless, these "sit downs" are OOC happenings. If I was a house leader, I'd gladly discuss what I think would be good new options for my house, but that wouldn't be a reflection of Iocun's opinion. Iocun's opinion would probably be that nothing needs to change at all and I feel that house leaders should be entitled to hold that particular opinion too and not be forced to pretend that they agree with the changes IC.

        KyriellaKuruvarMorroPrythe
      6. ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean

        That being said, I personally think it would be awesome if something akin to the class channel was brought back

        And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


        ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

        May
      7. JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
        @Iocun‌
        The way I see it, the leadership decides alongside the Garden (in an OOC sense, I presume?) how the change will be made.

        The leaders decide with the Garden how it will happen and how to progress with the change.

        The way I see it, the only thing that is forced is the restructuring of Houses, and that Houses may potentially have to "merge". The process to it, what Houses are "merged", etc are all done entirely with collaboration between Leadership and Garden. Each City and each House in the City will be handled differently depending on what happens with the discussions.

        The change for some Houses may not even officially involve any Gods IC, so I don't see how the theocracy thing could be an issue.

        At least, that's how I've interpreted it.
      8. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Vayne said:
        Jacen said:

        Unfortunately I think its gonna have to be "shit goes BOOM" in Hashan, because Hashan ain't gonna take no shit from Divine :( I think a pretty small minority will be fine with it, but a lot of people will raise hell for a long time if its  not a forced change that was out of the leadership's control.

        Nothings has to go "boom" necessarily. The process is not unilateral, the city and house leaders will be intimately be involved in the creation of the new houses.

        Sure, the leaders will be intimately involved, but that really doesn't mean a whole lot. You know as well as I do that an 18 year old lolalt can start an earth-shattering debate in Hashan just as easy as an established player. 


        Point is, the current leaders will be held responsible for the change if it's not obviously out of there hands. In some places, the might be remembered as "the Council that ushered in a Golden Age." In other places, like Hashan, this could very well be political suicide for those players.

        image
      9. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iocun said:

        Regardless, these "sit downs" are OOC happenings. If I was a house leader, I'd gladly discuss what I think would be good new options for my house, but that wouldn't be a reflection of Iocun's opinion. Iocun's opinion would probably be that nothing needs to change at all and I feel that house leaders should be entitled to hold that particular opinion too and not be forced to pretend that they agree with the changes IC.

        I've not seen mention that these will be OOC proceedings, only that they will be discussed with the explicit understanding that this is a change that is going to be required in order for multi-classing to happen, and that's really only on reason. There are other reasons, considering how narrow in scope some Houses can be. If you have certain people interested specifically in combat, would it not make more sense to have them, regardless of class, as part of one House? Likewise with those who take a serious interest in scholarly pursuits, political, etc.

        I'm just saying give it a chance and see how it goes. Cyrene's first on the slate, so you're not going to have to wait long. Give a chance and be open to it a bit rather than seeming resentful from the get-go.



        Trilliana
      10. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iocun said:

        Regardless, these "sit downs" are OOC happenings. If I was a house leader, I'd gladly discuss what I think would be good new options for my house, but that wouldn't be a reflection of Iocun's opinion. Iocun's opinion would probably be that nothing needs to change at all and I feel that house leaders should be entitled to hold that particular opinion too and not be forced to pretend that they agree with the changes IC.

        Some suspension of disbelief may be required. If you agree, on an OOC level, that this is for the good of the game, I'm sure you can concoct an IC epiphany that helps the game move forward.

        -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
        TrillianaAradorJhaeliWessux
      11. JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,678 @@ - Legendary Achaean

        Well, I do understand where Iocun is coming from. There is going to have to be some give and take between OOC and IC sentiment, but it definitely wouldn't hurt from the OOC perspective to try and smoothen things as much as possible for the IC stance to make sense.

        On the whole, I think that is the responsibility of the leaders of the Houses in question to come up with justifications and work with admin on said justifications, regardless of how radical or otherwise they might be, to help it make IC sense for their players. They might not be able to do everything they want to do, but at least a compromise would be possible and admin would be aware of their concerns.

        If you like my stories, you can find them here:
        Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2 

        KresslackShirszae
      12. IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Jukilian said:
        @Iocun‌
        The way I see it, the leadership decides alongside the Garden (in an OOC sense, I presume?) how the change will be made.

        The leaders decide with the Garden how it will happen and how to progress with the change.

        The way I see it, the only thing that is forced is the restructuring of Houses, and that Houses may potentially have to "merge". The process to it, what Houses are "merged", etc are all done entirely with collaboration between Leadership and Garden. Each City and each House in the City will be handled differently depending on what happens with the discussions.

        That's how I understand it as well. I don't disagree with any of that. I wasn't in any form complaining about who decides on the changes, but merely commenting on how the changes will be explained IC.
        The change for some Houses may not even officially involve any Gods IC, so I don't see how the theocracy thing could be an issue.

        At least, that's how I've interpreted it.

        I'm also aware that it doesn't necessarily involve IC gods. That was just one example of a possible IC explanation. What I was saying was just that it's pretty hard to have a good IC explanation without involving pretty big booms and bangs or a threat thereof.

      13. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean

        Everything doesn't have to go the way of the Seleucarian Empire, heh.




        MadelyneYae
      14. JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
        Nothing stopping people from saying, my character would think this, my character would have issues with that, and discuss them. Nothing stopping you from discussing IC reactions etc in an OOC discussion. "I think X would be good for the House as a whole, but my character would be skeptical". I think tackling it taking your characters into consideration is the wisest move, and no one has said people would be completely disregarding IC RP and feelings. To ignore how people's characters would feel and react to these changes would make the problems.

        @Jacen‌ Hashan needs a good kick in the pants. Maybe this will be it? No one can say for sure, but I'm going to choose to be optimistic about these changes.
      15. AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        It really does feel like it is targeted directly at serpent only houses. "Oh, we are going to 3 houses per city, bye bye smallest house, oh, you could only accept one class, sorry about that"

        ErnamPrytheCyla
      16. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

        Arcturus said:

        Uh, not sure if true or not but i'd be willing to bet Shadowsnakes aren't the smallest Ashtani house...

        Actually they are.  The Naga are the second smallest in Mhaldor, and Serpentlords are nearly tied for last with black lotus and spirit walkers.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean

            Shadowsnakes have been 2nd highest Ashtani House on House influence for awhile, but due to the way that's calculated we've moved down on average. I'd say we're still not the smallest House though, especially in terms of city influence.

            image
            Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

          2. BronislavBronislav MarylandMember Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

            The frustrating part of this has just been the wait. Some of the things I've really wanted to hammer out for the House have been put on hold until the changes happen. Also, the people who aren't in the tippy-top positions of House/City leadership have zero input and zero feedback about it. We're essentially in limbo until our Renaissance, and we have no idea how this sword of Damocles is going to fall.

            I know that change is coming, and I'm glad that my city's the first (Second, technically?) to go through it, because I'm really tired of being left in the dark. I just hope that there are more encouraging changes than disappointing ones.




          3. SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

            Druids, Serpents and Occultists are all single-class houses afaik. May be more as I'm not totally familiar with all the cities. Either way though, this thread was supposed to be for questions. It's happening. Deal with it. If you want to rant, there's another thread for it. 

            Rather than whining, think of all the actual questions that you have and ask those as this is the time for it. The administration is asking for our input, so we should give it. 

            There was a comment earlier that the Houses that are getting phased out could physically still be there with denizens representing. Create could go into that as well as as I'm sure suggestions on what type of event would work for your House/City. 

            In Mhaldor we have it easy as we go by the will of Sartan. That's reason enough. For Cyrene or Hashan (from my viewpoint) they're not really going anywhere or accomplishing anything. Don't know that there are city-goals that a combat oriented house would rally around or fight for. Maybe that type of issue can get confronted at this point and solved as well.

            My questions are: 
            1) Does this mean Occultist is coming back to Mhaldor or is that ban still on from way back when? 
            2) Think it was answered earlier but wanted to verify, cities are still being restricted to either forestal or alchemical, right?
            3) Timing-wise how does the tradeskills change line up with this?
            4) There are a bunch of House shops and ships, accounts (gold and credits), etc. those all get merged or redistributed or whatever as well?
            5) Also, to verify, house items from denizens will still be available or will have to be reworked? Is that part of the initial rollout or it comes later?

            The Truths hurt. Always.
          4. TectonTecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,507 Admin
            Suladan said:

            My questions are: 
            1) Does this mean Occultist is coming back to Mhaldor or is that ban still on from way back when? 
            2) Think it was answered earlier but wanted to verify, cities are still being restricted to either forestal or alchemical, right?
            3) Timing-wise how does the tradeskills change line up with this?
            4) There are a bunch of House shops and ships, accounts (gold and credits), etc. those all get merged or redistributed or whatever as well?
            5) Also, to verify, house items from denizens will still be available or will have to be reworked? Is that part of the initial rollout or it comes later?

            1) Restrictions will still be on the city level - so things like that will still be in place.

            2) At this stage, yes.

            3) Tradeskills will be rolled out over time after this.

            4) Yes.

            5) Denizens may sell some of the same items, a new denizen may sell similar items, or they may go away.

          5. IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Suladan said:

            Either way though, this thread was supposed to be for questions. It's happening. Deal with it. If you want to rant, there's another thread for it.

            It's explicitly for discussion and questions. And there's not even a point in asking questions, if discussing the answers (possibly in a critical fashion) isn't a possibility, because otherwise it would perfectly suffice to simply wait for the implementation, and the questions will become obsolete.

          6. WeiWei Monterey, CaliforniaMember Posts: 139 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

            I like how this thread is already tending toward Hashan on page 2. So, do you think the Lotus can absorb all the best Serpent Lords?

          7. JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
            > @Accipiter said:
            > It really does feel like it is targeted directly at serpent only houses. "Oh, we are going to 3 houses per city, bye bye smallest house, oh, you could only accept one class, sorry about that"
            Spirit Walkers are smaller than the Serpent Lords IIRC.

            @Iocun‌ A very good point, regarding being critical now. Perhaps an elaboration of how the discussions take place from admin would be useful as well?

            Also, having input from those that aren't in the leadership would be good, but difficult to do due to the OOC nature.
          8. ArcturusArcturus Member Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
            Jarrod said:

            Shadowsnakes have been 2nd highest Ashtani House on House influence for awhile, but due to the way that's calculated we've moved down on average. I'd say we're still not the smallest House though, especially in terms of city influence.

            ^^ This. Smallest doesn't mean size or members... it's about influence... As a citizen of Ashtan, for a -very- long time, I feel that the Shadowsnakes are far from the smallest house in influence. That award would go to the Warlocks. No hate intended.

            NemutaurKyrra
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