House Renaissance

Mathonwy

Jules

Just watching a slightly strange turn in the conversation.  Yes, we shouldn't totally derail as it seems to be over.

Achimrst

Sarapis said:

Iocun said:

Problem about doing it that way is that subsequent leaders won't know about it.

Not true at all. Where is it written that a House leader can't chuck everybody out of the House and make it Her own personal House, for instance? It's not. But everybody knows not to do that. That's how culture works - it's a mechanism for transmitting knowledge and experience over time.

No decisions made yet in any case.

Yeah, instead houses I know about just make it so you can never move up and make you feel unwanted and unneeded! Can't even get a patron to help you with that trust me we tried. Yet I find this as more of a rant than anything helpful.

PS I'm totally not talking about the Sylvanic Fellowship which is a great house overall.

Trey

Jules said:

Just watching a slightly strange turn in the conversation.  Yes, we shouldn't totally derail as it seems to be over.

 

Jules

So is the plan for other cities to have city staff take care of novice tasks (vice houses)  as well or was that a Cyrene only thing?

Eilona

That's how it's going to be for all cities. Houses aren't going to be for teaching basic gameplay any more, but for specialisation in a chosen path.

Asmodron

Gosh this conversation got old 2 days ago... Let's get back to houses

Jules

So for one, I should have had a closer look at the announce myself I'd heard somewhere something something that cities would be taking on novicehood, but it's actually right in the announce.  Anyway, I don't think we've really discussed city novicehood much really, certainly not in the past few days/pages.  We've been very much focused on the Houses themselves, partly because there's plenty to talk about there, but I think also because we keep forgetting or aren't aware that the cities are supposed to take on a role that has always been filled by houses in the past.  It's a huge shift for Achaea, culturally.    

From the announce:  

"Also as part of the Renaissance, a program of city novicehood will be introduced to the city, which all new citizens will undergo before choosing a house".

Cyrene has a very basic one, and I understand it takes time to develop a program, so that's fine, but it occurred to me that a lot of the conversations we're having here need to include an understanding of the new roles of and relationships between cities, houses, and novices.  

Jhaeli

Admittedly, that's where most of my questions lie. 

The current city tasks are fantastic and I think I'd like to make a point of making a new character to run through the intro and city tasks all at once to see just how in-depth it is as a whole, but overall, it doesn't seem like it covered everything that the Houses did before. (I'll have to take some time to examine it more closely in order to be able to point out specific flaws though.)

ETA: After I sent the comment, I thought about it some more. It could feel incomplete because so much of it is quickly and efficiently handled. I love the new novice intros and how they offer weapons and armour, for example, which used to be covered by Houses. So, again, I'd need to take some time for close examination to be able to point out specific examples, which would be more useful than a general complaint.

Jules

The new (overall Achaea) novice intro is pretty good, but the city tasks pretty much just get you to a house as it stands now.  Of course, we do want to get people into a house, but it seems like there should (eventually) be a lot more to city programs, and since they've never existed before, there should be plenty to discuss.  

Houses/Cities need to discern which duties now fall under the city's purview, and let the city run with those tasks.  I definitely don't fully understand the intent of the announce, and would love further clarification of what's envisioned from admin folk, but that discernment of who should be taking care of what, and Houses stepping aside where appropriate and letting the city take over, is a really big question.

Or we could talk more about essays :P 

Jules

An immediate thing that comes to mind is that a robust city program would and should have trained those novices to the equivalent of HR3, which has historically been the graduation from novicehood.

Jules

So (thinking as I go here, trying to envision what things might look like), up until then, the house's role might be mainly to help novices with their city assigned tasks.  

Madelyne

Jules said:

I would figure Virtuosi would and should do more actual writing (including formal-ish writing), whatever form that might take.  But yes, prose is absolutely an essay.  Poetry... something all its own.  Definitely something I expect from the art house though.  Your members hopefully like those things, and are encouraged to do interesting, creative pieces.  But essays in most orgs are pretty much soul-crushing, both because the members of those orgs aren't as dialed into doing them, and because the assignments are almost never particularly inspiring.  

I agree the writing should be kept to a bare minimum, and I'm someone who loves to write. Ty Beirdd once had an 1800 word essay requirement in their Lorewarden / history path. (That was insane. Thankfully it was abolished.) 

One of the reasons I first started playing Achaea was because of its attention to the arts. I love the histories. Lucaine Pyramides is commonly referred to as a "warrior poet". Those early histories? They're awesome! Kudos to whoever wrote them.

But it seems that era is ending. The "players don't want to write" trend isn't just with Achaea. It's everywhere. I'm a freelance writer and when writing blog articles for clients I'm told things like, "Keep the paragraphs to less than 3 lines of text. Don't make the article more than 300-400 words." It's sad, but it's what works. And apparently it's what works here, too.

The writing in the Virtuosi, at least in the Prose/Poetry paths, is nothing like Ty Beirdd. It is more -- hey, here's now to create something Bardic-worthy, and maybe you can use this knowledge to create something that will help you win credits! In the Performance path, it's "Achaea has stages, let's make use of those through acting, music, and dance!"

The Virtual Arts path is coming along, with hopes of doing things that are new and different, while teaching real concepts like color theory in a way that makes sense in a text game. And Crafting is just that -- knowing the steps for making crafting things, even if you have to get someone with a license to submit it for you (with you paying all fees, unless that changes later).

Now, will everyone in the Virtuosi win Bardics? Sadly, no. But graduating the path does put them one step closer to being able to create a story or poem that isn't a hot mess. Will everyone in the crafting path make millions of gold filling shops with their crafted foods, clothes, and accessories? No, but they may be a step closer to not having the crafting guild return it because they made frivolous mistakes.

Jules

I think I saw his statue on Karbaz when I was eating all their custard and salmon.

Jacen

Has there been any mechanical change to the new Houses? Still sponsor partial/full to HR2 and 3? Full member at HR5?

Jules

It doesn't seem like the mechanics have changed, no.  The leaders are frantically trying to promote each other to appropriate ranks.

Madelyne

Jules said:

It doesn't seem like the mechanics have changed, no.  The leaders are frantically trying to promote each other to appropriate ranks.

That's not true for all the houses in Cyrene. In the Virtuosi, except for HL, the 3 other founders and HoN are HR05. They have to rank up like everybody else who gets to HR05 through doing the (fun and non-essay'ish) requirements.

Jules

Hardcore.  I just meant that somehow, an initial leadership cadre has to get ranked up, and going by channel discussions, the only way to do it is to constantly favour them up to the appropriate ranks.

Mishgul

leadership and house rank don't have to go hand in hand.

Bluef

Madelyne said:

Jules said:

It doesn't seem like the mechanics have changed, no.  The leaders are frantically trying to promote each other to appropriate ranks.

That's not true for all the houses in Cyrene. In the Virtuosi, except for HL, the 3 other founders and HoN are HR05. They have to rank up like everybody else who gets to HR05 through doing the (fun and non-essay'ish) requirements.

I'm glad the Virtuosi, at least, aren't going the route of inflationary Housefavouring. The rebirth of Houses into new organizations doesn't require everyone to be where they once were - Personally, I'd be a little put off by an organization that required everyone else to level back up from HR1 while leaders favoured each other back up to HR15 again. That seems so artificial and unnecessary. 

Shirszae

Don't have to, perhap, but... Well, it is easy to imagine ranks as a sort of unofficial leadership. Whether mechanically or not, people feel they have some authority the higher their rank. Thus, there can be, for those people, a certain disconnect if they are supposed to be leaders, but their house rank is the same as everyone's else. 

At least thats why it never has bothered me when I see people favored and favored upon assuming certain leadership positions. It makes sense.

Aerek

There are certain House powers that come at predetermined ranks and can't be moved around. I can't remember which ones they are or what ranks they come available, but if a House feels a given power is needed, and it only comes at rank 9, then you get the favor races. I haven't seen this in the Shield, though.

Jules

True (to Mishgul's statement).  I wouldn't be against having a house with a nearly flat rank structure, although ranks are also used to restrict access to certain mechanical abilities, some of which could be a bit messy if most of the house had access to them.  Some of the powers could probably be much more freely distributed than they usually are, but some do legitimately need to be out of reach for all but a few.  You'd want to tie some of those powers to a position instead of a rank, unless that's something that can already be done?  If it is, I think a flat or very nearly flat rank structure would be absolutely awesome in a lot of houses, certainly Cyrenian ones.  

I'm thinking of what I see in HOUSE LISTPOWERS RANKS, which seems to tie a lot of important abilities to ranks, and you probably do want some of those powers to be safely protected by a safe favour buffer (i.e. at a very high rank that requires lots of big favours to get to), unless they can be tied to a position instead.  

EDIT:  somewhat ninja'd but yes, exactly.  I really do like the idea of a flatter rank structure for certain houses though, in the interest of promoting an organization of near equals, with leaders that members look up to but don't treat with feudal deference.

Mishgul

tying to positions seems the best way. favouring people for the sake of rank in a brand new house seems silly, but then, house leaders can do what they want. It is a free country after all.

Except in Mhaldor.

Bluef

Aerek said:

There are certain House powers that come at predetermined ranks and can't be moved around. I can't remember which ones they are or what ranks they come available, but if a House feels a given power is needed, and it only comes at rank 9, then you get the favor races. I haven't seen this in the Shield, though.

What doesn't make sense to me is why this type of things wasn't addressed in the new House systems before their roll out. Making it possible for House leaders to invest in (and strip from) powers in members rather than ranks would make the House members all equals in terms of rank - at least at the start. Then people would be far more motivated to be of service to others in the House, to encourage roleplay interactions, etc. In short, I'm with @Jules!  

On a totally separate note - An organization that was all but dead before the Renaissance, should not have their leadership rewarded for their lack of contribution, activity, etc. with HR9 or 15 following the Renaissance. To me, there is a far greater disconnect between what this event should be about than having leaders who are HR3 alongside new/renewed membership. 

Krypton

Jules said:

The leaders are frantically trying to promote each other to appropriate ranks.

Aerek said:

There are certain House powers that come at predetermined ranks and can't be moved around. I can't remember which ones they are or what ranks they come available, but if a House feels a given power is needed, and it only comes at rank 9, then you get the favor races.

That's what's happening. Certain House members are in charge of the House rank promotion programs, but they themselves are not yet high enough rank to give out HFs, so they're getting HF'd until they are at the rank they need to carry out their jobs.

It's not about "getting people back to the ranks they once were," nor is it about needing the House leadership's ranks to positively reflect their positions. No one is above HR7 currently, not even the House leaders. And the House leaders have not gotten a single inflating HF.

Jhaeli

What Krypton just said. Certain members need to be able to favour other members (who are rapidly catching up, to be fair) based on how our program works. But we're all at HR5, so the favours are just to get us to six so that we can then, in turn, give out favours. In fact, we went out of our way to make sure there was an easy, optional way to earn Housefavours so that it isn't all about blatant favouritism, which I think was an important part of the changeover.

Getting favoured back to HR15 would not only take forever, but is sort of a ridiculous assumption to make (of which this isn't the first in this thread). 

Also, the Houseleaders themselves aren't being favoured because when you get the leadership spot, your rank automatically goes up over time. In fact, just about all HR15s I've ever seen are former Houseleaders.

Jules

Yeah, just in case people somehow misread what I wrote, I am totally on board with what is going on and why.  

Korben

I'm still reading the back posts, but here's my two cents so far:

1. Cyrene's three houses sound great. Achaea has always been marketed as a balanced MUD, and the three houses fit the bill: one for killers, one for socializers and one for explorers. Achievers can fit in all three.

2. Intra-city fighting in Hashan was a drag. It left us out of all the world events while we were busy with a conflict that would lead nowhere and achieve nothing other than harming ourselves (which it did). Having lived through the bad days from the BL side and not really being active in the more recent good days, the bad times are still pretty fresh in my memory. I don't see a problem with becoming Housemate with former SLs, though. The benefits to Hashan override any personal feelings I or my character might have.

3. Some people really hate essays, they want to play the game (and writing, to them, does not feel like playing the game). Others like to write and explore the game that way, because writing about something helps develop their character's stance on that subject. It's a hard decision, but I suggest all writing requirements be optional - if you don't want to write, you can fulfill the requirement some other way.

Madelyne

Aerek said:

There are certain House powers that come at predetermined ranks and can't be moved around. I can't remember which ones they are or what ranks they come available, but if a House feels a given power is needed, and it only comes at rank 9, then you get the favor races. I haven't seen this in the Shield, though.

This is why houses have structure and invest-able powers. It's totally possible to give people those powers without HF races, which IMHO are an abuse of power and an insult to anyone who works their ass off to earn favour through legitimate reasons.

While I don't agree with HF races, and I'm glad to have Madelyne be a member of a house that isn't resorting to "a promotion program" that indulges in that practice, to each his/her own. If people like that sort of thing, they can join that house and deal with the HF-drama. And if not, they can join one of the other two houses.

Not my circus. Not my monkeys.