PKing - Improvements

Jarrod

Fortunately for me, people who are extraordinarily terrible at multiple classes and rely on purchasing huge amount of artefacts in a single day don't have opinions that matter to me.

I'm on the ACC because I'm significantly better than you at multiple classes, and know theory on the classes I haven't played. I've seen all the posts you've made in the past and I feel supremely confident that the rest of the ACC would agree with me in saying: "You are not good at this game, Ernam."

I'll go back to watching movies and knowing more than you now, thanks


Edit: Also worth noting that just because Achilles ran after you died in all 3 2v2s, doesn't mean it was 2v1. Facts are hard when you're bad I guess.

Mithridates

Tbh I've never seen Jarrod fight outside of raids or 2v1

Strata

Jovolo said:

I see Serpent as being about % curing chances based on opponent's priorities, not you breaking your target's system - Which was like, Vadi-M and prior era. Serpent's are objectively in a better position mechanically than they have been for years, and it's only going to get better for them.

Not to sound just as bad as @Ernam, but you really should put all those book smarts to practical use and then tell us what you think.

Ernam

I'm not going to argue with you over personal crap on the forums, but I will say: You were inducted into the ACC for the same reason that about 30-40% of it was, because you were friends with enough people in it to get an invite, and were active during induction season and nobody better was around.  I am not saying you're terrible, I'm just saying that you're not in the top 10%, and I think the top 10% should be the ones in the ACC.  There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you're realistic about it, and don't think you're somehow special because you got tapped.  In the entire time I've seen you play serpent, I've never seen you do anything other than backstab/snipe.  Ever.  I also venom-locked you in exactly two doublestabs, last week (using illusions), leaving me to assume that you're not exactly a curing prodigy either.

And I really didn't mean to offend you, but since you're stooping to ridiculous insults as a response to my comment, I have to assume you are offended.  I was simply stating that, in general, there are a lot of voices going into the serpent debate, and as far as a lot of us can tell, most of the active, experienced serpents aren't in the communication process, with the exception of Iocun.

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Jovolo

Ernam said:

I'm not going to argue with you over personal crap on the forums, but I will say: You were inducted into the ACC for the same reason that about 30-40% of it was, because you were friends with enough people in it to get an invite, and were active during induction season and nobody better was around.  I am not saying you're terrible, I'm just saying that you're not in the top 10%, and I think the top 10% should be the ones in the ACC.  There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you're realistic about it, and don't think you're somehow special because you got tapped.  In the entire time I've seen you play serpent, I've never seen you do anything other than backstab/snipe.  Ever.  I also venom-locked you in exactly two doublestabs, last week (using illusions), leaving me to assume that you're not exactly a curing prodigy either.

And I really didn't mean to offend you, but since you're stooping to ridiculous insults as a response to my comment, I have to assume you are offended.  I was simply stating that, in general, there are a lot of voices going into the serpent debate, and as far as a lot of us can tell, most of the active, experienced serpents aren't in the communication process, with the exception of Iocun.

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Just to indulge you, who are these dozen of experienced, active, and good Serpent's that you're referring to? You don't have to give all of their names here at all, I just want you to think on that statement a little more before you repeat it, and if you seriously believe it, send me a PM? They're welcome to submit classleads, and also apply to join the ACC when applications open. They're also welcome to approach any of the members of the ACC with constructive ideas to discuss the possibilities of the future direction of the Serpent class. What isn't taken so well, is the incessant whining and insulting done in place of that, under the pretense that nobody but them/you knows how to best balance the class, and no one but them/you can even comment on the class without these insults being made?? It's so fucking annoying. It's not like your voices are stifled. If you have ideas, approach someone who can do something with them. 

Ernam

@Jovolo Sure man - I've already messaged a few people about applying, and I'd be happy to make a few recommendations as well.  Also, my days useless complaints are long overwith.  I think people need to realize that there has been a span of 15 years that we've "known each other", and sometimes people change. 

@Silas

Jarrod

Backstabbing for stun while I was alt-tabbed because I told you you're not as good as Jarrel?

Which you aren't, and I still think it's hilarious you think you are/ever were.

Strata

Ernam said:

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Just relax! If you think about it, serpent IS mechanically better without illusions because without them, you're left with ONLY game mechanics and not arbitrary manipulation of your opponent's curing. What this means is anyone worth their salt in a fight only needs minimal experience dealing with serpents (i.e. dor touch shield or ^\w+ snaps (?:his|her) fingers in front of you\.$ = dor touch shield) and no longer has to worry about people using illusions to affect things like emergency priority switching or to fool sileris defup. This is mechanically awesome for every class that fights vs. serpent. Also role-play wise it's a great change because now I can play my serpent character and not be left with the eventual sit-down talk with newbies about OOC system-tricking crap like this anymore.

That being said, @Antonius wanted to know why, if we see this whole situation as all doom&gloom, we didn't put leads in. The answer is, server-side curing came as a complete spontaneous surprise, followed by the very high likelihood that illusion will be removed in the near future, followed by "WELP. CLASSLEADS ARE CLOSED IN LIKE A WEEK. BETTER GET UR SHIT IN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." - which, imo, was a pretty lolzy move on IRE's part. It's not hard to see how, if you're serpent, you might at first feel like the class is being screwed over - and personally I think it is going to be in a pretty bad state until at least the next round of leads.

I do hope multi-class hurries the hell up so I can put serpent to the side while we work out fixes for what they're most likely about to break.

Ernam

Strata said:

That being said, @Antonius wanted to know why, if we see this whole situation as all doom&gloom, we didn't put leads in. The answer is, server-side curing came as a complete spontaneous surprise, followed by the very high likelihood that illusion will be removed in the near future, followed by "WELP. CLASSLEADS ARE CLOSED IN LIKE A WEEK. BETTER GET UR SHIT IN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." - which, imo, was a pretty lolzy move on IRE's part. It's not hard to see how, if you're serpent, you might at first feel like the class is being screwed over - and personally I think it is going to be in a pretty bad state until at least the next round of leads.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  That was seriously, seriously fucked up.  I already had 5 in, and was graciously given 2 additional classlead inputs and a week to essentially re-design serpent combat.

I would have -loved- to sit down with some good serpents and brainstorm some changes to serpent that left it both less client-system intensive, and balanced.  As of yet, nobody has attempted such a discussion, aside from a few forum flails and a bunch of mediocre-at-best classlead inputs.

Jarrod

Removal of illusions was brought up months ago as a future plan for combat.

Ernam

Again, I am far from assuming that the game admin are going to fail at finding a way to make serpent work.  I don't share @Strata's pessimism.  It's just that I'm a little nervous, because sometimes serpent "upgrades" turn out to be a bunch of half-assed useless fluff abilities.  Then again, sometimes we get darkshade/lightwall (plug for classlead 50) and voyria effect on passives (plug for classlead 197), which were both really awesome.

I just don't enjoy the suspense and lack of input and/or warning.

Mithridates

Yah the voyria effect on passive was a huge buff

Mithridates

Also you lied to me @Ernam‌

Ernam

The voyria affect on passive is non-existent, if you know what you're doing.

Classlead #197

Mithridates

Well with a vlock it works well vs magi

Ernam

I think a bite-only affliction that essentially "stops" passive healing is a good idea.  The idea would be to mitigate passive healing prior to a lock (at a pretty hefty cost to offensive momentum), not after the fact.  I've never had an issue of dealing with passive healing -after- a venomlock.  It only takes a few seconds to kill someone post lock.  Getting to it is the hard part.

There's no way for me to know for sure, but I think that this is what they wanted the voyria change to do in the first place, but it needs to have some form of balance limitation.  Sip Immunity is too easy.  It's also impossible to tell if they are sipping it, unlike eating herbs.

Antonius

I think the primary intention with voyria is that you use it to prevent passive curing getting somebody out of a lock you've already secured while you finish them off, so they can't sip immunity at that point anyway.

Silas

Ernam said:

@Jovolo Sure man - I've already messaged a few people about applying, and I'd be happy to make a few recommendations as well.  Also, my days useless complaints are long overwith.  I think people need to realize that there has been a span of 15 years that we've "known each other", and sometimes people change. 

@Silas

You're the exact same whiny asshole that wants everything on his terms.

Naah

Is Ernam the new Shecks?
He's so annoying.

Rip

Interesting last posts.

I added 7 leads this round and sent in 5 last time.  Subterfuge, has nearly DOUBLE the leads than all the other skills.  That is fantastic!  Cheers to everyone that did submit ideas and classleads!

 Get in there and endorse those leads.  It's not to late!

@Strata,  I have some ideas for Illusion in the classleads, go endorse and make your own comments, get your ideas heard!

(If you think GHOST sucks, that's because it was made before everything else, it needs to be updated and modernized with the NEW skills, along with many other subterfuge abilities.)

Tell Them About It! <- They are listening...

Edit: Missed one 'the'...arg.

Strata

Antonius said:

I think the primary intention with voyria is that you use it to prevent passive curing getting somebody out of a lock you've already secured while you finish them off, so they can't sip immunity at that point anyway.

How can the primary intention be what you just said if the mechanic is "passive abilities have a chance of always curing voyria first".

Afflict voyria = Flay and bite, or dstab something/voyria - which is essentially a jab. (only 1 venom towards achieving lock)

Cure voyria = sip immunity (costs nothing)

It's broken. The cost of adding voyria to a serpent's offense outweighs the benefit of "the possibility that passive abilities will cure the voyria first." Thus, what you just said makes no sense at all. If someone with passive curing ability gets locked, they're only going to be locked for a few seconds, regardless of voyria. So what is a serpent to do then? Kill them or just keep stabbing with voyria and spinning the RNG while looking like an idiot, smirking, and going "lol voyria. haha you can't cure out. lol voyria again! lol haha!"

Mithridates

Passive curing usually works on a 12 second tick so yeah it works

Nim

I forget, isn't voyria one of the many venoms that can be envenomed? If so, then even if you were going to be goofy and just keep reapplying it, you could shoot at them or single-stab them for damage while doing it anyway. Not that you have to, but even if you were going to do that...

Jovolo

the point of new-Voyria is to stop passive curing from breaking its user out of a lock, which it does when not bugged. It's not supposed to stop passive healing in the build-up to a lock.

I don't know of any passive curing consistently faster than ten seconds, (Dagaz ticks randomly iirc, so it's possible that you might get very lucky and get an unusually fast tick) so Voyria basically gives you at minimum (10+(time it takes for Voyria to be cured after afflicting it)). It sounds like what you're asking for is a way to nullify passive healing for x amount of seconds which defeats the point of it entirely. May as well remove it from the game - which I'm actually not against at all, but that's a different discussion.

Strata

This is all the announcement said: - All forms of passive curing will attempt to cure the VOYRIA affliction first. (from announce #4003)

That's the information the rest of sapience is going by. We don't have access to the authoritative theory and discussion that took place regarding the matter. Nor do we have access to the results any of the tests that were undoubtedly performed by the very same experts who discussed such esoteric matters pertaining to the complexities of Achaean combat mechanics.

Jovolo

What's hard to understand about that? I don't get your confusion

Sena

Strata said:

This is all the announcement said: - All forms of passive curing will attempt to cure the VOYRIA affliction first. (from announce #4003)

That's the information the rest of sapience is going by. We don't have access to the authoritative theory and discussion that took place regarding the matter. Nor do we have access to the results any of the tests that were undoubtedly performed by the very same experts who discussed such esoteric matters pertaining to the complexities of Achaean combat mechanics.

I'm entirely uninvolved in combat and never participated in any discussion related to the change, and I knew the reason for it and impact of it right away. It's pretty straightforward.

Jarrod

What we have to go by was the problem raised that resulted in the change, and the discussions after classleads regarding the change.

Voyria is not and was not intended to be something applied during a lock attempt to prevent passive curing. Voyria was intended to be applied when a lock was sealed to prevent passive healing from RNG-curing someone out of a lock. When you lock someone, you apply voyria, and have a minimum 10-12 seconds (depending on class and whether it ticks instantly or not) to kill the target. This is plenty of time to kill someone in a myriad of ways, from one of various insta-kills to hitting them with darkshade and dstabing voyria/whatever to just jabbing with voyria until they die. Voyria is not intended to disable passive curing, it is intended to prevent RNG-curing out of a lock.

Strata

Thank you for clarifying what was merely implied in the original announcement. It is now understood that nobody would ever think to use voyria while working toward a lock to slow down passive curing. Doing so would be completely contrary to the implied purpose gathered from the announcement and thus anyone contemplating such an idea obviously has no imagination or extensive knowledge of how it was originally intended to function, or anything for that matter.

Mithridates

I don't understand the disconnect here