PKing - Improvements

Mithridates

I thought that was already a skill.

Antonius

Strata said:

Serpent so screwed this round of classleads.

classlead list strata
 ID D Submitter       Ability         Problem       
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 60 S Strata          Hamstring       Contrary to pinshot and tentacles, the e
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Yeah, that definitely seems like a legitimate complaint...

Strata

Antonius said:

Strata said:

Serpent so screwed this round of classleads.

classlead list strata
 ID D Submitter       Ability         Problem       
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 60 S Strata          Hamstring       Contrary to pinshot and tentacles, the e
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, that definitely seems like a legitimate complaint...

You forgot to post the solutions - which were from one end of the spectrum to the other, I thought. Even though the Achaean Class Changer experts disagree, at least I didn't ask for retardation to be deleted. :P

Jarrod

Could people stop complaining about how they assume things will play out weeks and years down the line?

Stick to bitching about shit that's actually happening currently, please.

Antonius

@Strata: Oh, I didn't forget to post anything. My point was more that you think Serpent is going to be "screwed" this round of classleads, but only posted a single classlead. If you were really that concerned I feel like you'd have submitted more.

Daeir

To be fair, illusion death came about a lot faster and quite unexpectedly. Until some details about this deep subterfuge/venom replacement stuff come around, Serpent's gonna be in a bit of a shitty spot for a while.

Jarrod

It really, really isn't.


Edit to clarify: Serpents did not need illusion to lock people before the change. With the buffs Serpents will be even better mechanically.

I would estimate, that any meaningful buff to Serpent will result in a continued great period of time for Serpents.

Strata

Jarrod said:

It really, really isn't.


Edit to clarify: Serpents did not need illusion to lock people before the change. With the buffs Serpents will be even better mechanically.

I would estimate, that any meaningful buff to Serpent will result in a continued great period of time for Serpents.

Edit to clarify: Serpents without Thoth's Fang did not need illusion to lock people without curing before the change. With the buffs Serpents will be even better mechanically.

Yes, technically it is possible to lock someone with longer than 1.7s dstab speeds while not using illusions. So long as the person you are fighting has absolutely no clue what they're doing, and never touches shield or leaves the room, and you don't have to flay rebounding too much. I say this even though I have a t-fang and it shouldn't matter what I think - but let's be mindful of the peasants, @Jarrod.

I have a strange feeling we're going to be turned into Apostates with phase and no demon to siphon us. But, as already said, we have snipe! yaaaaaaay! That's all anyone uses the class for anyway, aside from spying on mudsexers.

Mithridates

That last part is totally worth going serpent

Naah

Honestly, I hate LoS and anything to do with ranged combat. I like being personal and in your face. I prefer 1v1 or 2v2 to group/raiding because of the more personal choices and tricks you could pull off. I wouldn't like to use Snipe as much as dashing and learning how to Serp, but mechanically it confuses me so much that I become discouraged and quit the class or leave the character.

Serpent would probably be my favorite class if I could learn to read situations. :<

Ernam

Daeir said:

Serpent's gonna be in a bit of a shitty spot for a while.

Jarrod said:

It really, really isn't.

Edit to clarify: Serpents did not need illusion to lock people before the change.

I really wish I could say this without sounding like a jerk, but it's really, really hard to figure out the right words.  Jarrod, you are bad at serpent.  Please stop asserting your opinion on it against loads of people who are dramatically more experienced in both combat theory and actual combat.  I have literally never seen you do anything other than snipe and 2v1 lock with other people helping you, in all the years I have been playing, and it really bothers me that you appears to have some form of impact on what the game staff do with the serpent class, because there are at least a dozen people more qualified than yourself to make these suggestions (and forum comments).

Strata said:

Yes, technically it is possible to lock someone with longer than 1.7s dstab speeds while not using illusions. So long as the person you are fighting has absolutely no clue what they're doing, and never touches shield or leaves the room, and you don't have to flay rebounding too much.

Strata hit home with this.  With "perfect" curing and anti-illusion, it was already 100% possible to avoid locks from a serpent prior to illusions being essentially deleted (to include "correct" use of tree, fitness, shield, rebounding, sileris).  Finding flaws in our opponent's curing and exploiting them has always been the primary means of winning a fight as a serpent, and 95% of these strategies hinged on illusion.  Without illusion, it is no-shit completely impossible to lock (and therefore kill) someone, as strata said, unless they  "[have] absolutely no clue what they're doing, and never touch shield or leave the room".

I am definitely holding out hope, however, for future changes to serpent.  I've some good (and a LOT of bad) ideas floated, even if very few if any of them made it into the actual classleads, so we'll just have to see what the admins do with the class before flipping out.

As soon as Vadi (or someone else) puts out a system that actually uses server curing properly (SVO doesn't come close, currently), I think a lot more people are going to realize they can literally AFK against serpent, if their curing system is set right.

Jovolo

I see Serpent as being about % curing chances based on opponent's priorities, not you breaking your target's system - Which was like, Vadi-M and prior era. Serpent's are objectively in a better position mechanically than they have been for years, and it's only going to get better for them.

Jarrod

Fortunately for me, people who are extraordinarily terrible at multiple classes and rely on purchasing huge amount of artefacts in a single day don't have opinions that matter to me.

I'm on the ACC because I'm significantly better than you at multiple classes, and know theory on the classes I haven't played. I've seen all the posts you've made in the past and I feel supremely confident that the rest of the ACC would agree with me in saying: "You are not good at this game, Ernam."

I'll go back to watching movies and knowing more than you now, thanks


Edit: Also worth noting that just because Achilles ran after you died in all 3 2v2s, doesn't mean it was 2v1. Facts are hard when you're bad I guess.

Mithridates

Tbh I've never seen Jarrod fight outside of raids or 2v1

Strata

Jovolo said:

I see Serpent as being about % curing chances based on opponent's priorities, not you breaking your target's system - Which was like, Vadi-M and prior era. Serpent's are objectively in a better position mechanically than they have been for years, and it's only going to get better for them.

Not to sound just as bad as @Ernam, but you really should put all those book smarts to practical use and then tell us what you think.

Ernam

I'm not going to argue with you over personal crap on the forums, but I will say: You were inducted into the ACC for the same reason that about 30-40% of it was, because you were friends with enough people in it to get an invite, and were active during induction season and nobody better was around.  I am not saying you're terrible, I'm just saying that you're not in the top 10%, and I think the top 10% should be the ones in the ACC.  There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you're realistic about it, and don't think you're somehow special because you got tapped.  In the entire time I've seen you play serpent, I've never seen you do anything other than backstab/snipe.  Ever.  I also venom-locked you in exactly two doublestabs, last week (using illusions), leaving me to assume that you're not exactly a curing prodigy either.

And I really didn't mean to offend you, but since you're stooping to ridiculous insults as a response to my comment, I have to assume you are offended.  I was simply stating that, in general, there are a lot of voices going into the serpent debate, and as far as a lot of us can tell, most of the active, experienced serpents aren't in the communication process, with the exception of Iocun.

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Jovolo

Ernam said:

I'm not going to argue with you over personal crap on the forums, but I will say: You were inducted into the ACC for the same reason that about 30-40% of it was, because you were friends with enough people in it to get an invite, and were active during induction season and nobody better was around.  I am not saying you're terrible, I'm just saying that you're not in the top 10%, and I think the top 10% should be the ones in the ACC.  There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you're realistic about it, and don't think you're somehow special because you got tapped.  In the entire time I've seen you play serpent, I've never seen you do anything other than backstab/snipe.  Ever.  I also venom-locked you in exactly two doublestabs, last week (using illusions), leaving me to assume that you're not exactly a curing prodigy either.

And I really didn't mean to offend you, but since you're stooping to ridiculous insults as a response to my comment, I have to assume you are offended.  I was simply stating that, in general, there are a lot of voices going into the serpent debate, and as far as a lot of us can tell, most of the active, experienced serpents aren't in the communication process, with the exception of Iocun.

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Just to indulge you, who are these dozen of experienced, active, and good Serpent's that you're referring to? You don't have to give all of their names here at all, I just want you to think on that statement a little more before you repeat it, and if you seriously believe it, send me a PM? They're welcome to submit classleads, and also apply to join the ACC when applications open. They're also welcome to approach any of the members of the ACC with constructive ideas to discuss the possibilities of the future direction of the Serpent class. What isn't taken so well, is the incessant whining and insulting done in place of that, under the pretense that nobody but them/you knows how to best balance the class, and no one but them/you can even comment on the class without these insults being made?? It's so fucking annoying. It's not like your voices are stifled. If you have ideas, approach someone who can do something with them. 

Ernam

@Jovolo Sure man - I've already messaged a few people about applying, and I'd be happy to make a few recommendations as well.  Also, my days useless complaints are long overwith.  I think people need to realize that there has been a span of 15 years that we've "known each other", and sometimes people change. 

@Silas

Jarrod

Backstabbing for stun while I was alt-tabbed because I told you you're not as good as Jarrel?

Which you aren't, and I still think it's hilarious you think you are/ever were.

Strata

Ernam said:

I'm just afraid that the admin are going to implement more "amazing" ideas like Nechamandra, Execute, and exploding snakes, instead of things that are actually going to leave serpent somewhere playable post-illusion-nerf.

Just relax! If you think about it, serpent IS mechanically better without illusions because without them, you're left with ONLY game mechanics and not arbitrary manipulation of your opponent's curing. What this means is anyone worth their salt in a fight only needs minimal experience dealing with serpents (i.e. dor touch shield or ^\w+ snaps (?:his|her) fingers in front of you\.$ = dor touch shield) and no longer has to worry about people using illusions to affect things like emergency priority switching or to fool sileris defup. This is mechanically awesome for every class that fights vs. serpent. Also role-play wise it's a great change because now I can play my serpent character and not be left with the eventual sit-down talk with newbies about OOC system-tricking crap like this anymore.

That being said, @Antonius wanted to know why, if we see this whole situation as all doom&gloom, we didn't put leads in. The answer is, server-side curing came as a complete spontaneous surprise, followed by the very high likelihood that illusion will be removed in the near future, followed by "WELP. CLASSLEADS ARE CLOSED IN LIKE A WEEK. BETTER GET UR SHIT IN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." - which, imo, was a pretty lolzy move on IRE's part. It's not hard to see how, if you're serpent, you might at first feel like the class is being screwed over - and personally I think it is going to be in a pretty bad state until at least the next round of leads.

I do hope multi-class hurries the hell up so I can put serpent to the side while we work out fixes for what they're most likely about to break.

Ernam

Strata said:

That being said, @Antonius wanted to know why, if we see this whole situation as all doom&gloom, we didn't put leads in. The answer is, server-side curing came as a complete spontaneous surprise, followed by the very high likelihood that illusion will be removed in the near future, followed by "WELP. CLASSLEADS ARE CLOSED IN LIKE A WEEK. BETTER GET UR SHIT IN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." - which, imo, was a pretty lolzy move on IRE's part. It's not hard to see how, if you're serpent, you might at first feel like the class is being screwed over - and personally I think it is going to be in a pretty bad state until at least the next round of leads.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  That was seriously, seriously fucked up.  I already had 5 in, and was graciously given 2 additional classlead inputs and a week to essentially re-design serpent combat.

I would have -loved- to sit down with some good serpents and brainstorm some changes to serpent that left it both less client-system intensive, and balanced.  As of yet, nobody has attempted such a discussion, aside from a few forum flails and a bunch of mediocre-at-best classlead inputs.

Jarrod

Removal of illusions was brought up months ago as a future plan for combat.

Ernam

Again, I am far from assuming that the game admin are going to fail at finding a way to make serpent work.  I don't share @Strata's pessimism.  It's just that I'm a little nervous, because sometimes serpent "upgrades" turn out to be a bunch of half-assed useless fluff abilities.  Then again, sometimes we get darkshade/lightwall (plug for classlead 50) and voyria effect on passives (plug for classlead 197), which were both really awesome.

I just don't enjoy the suspense and lack of input and/or warning.

Mithridates

Yah the voyria effect on passive was a huge buff

Mithridates

Also you lied to me @Ernam‌

Ernam

The voyria affect on passive is non-existent, if you know what you're doing.

Classlead #197

Mithridates

Well with a vlock it works well vs magi

Ernam

I think a bite-only affliction that essentially "stops" passive healing is a good idea.  The idea would be to mitigate passive healing prior to a lock (at a pretty hefty cost to offensive momentum), not after the fact.  I've never had an issue of dealing with passive healing -after- a venomlock.  It only takes a few seconds to kill someone post lock.  Getting to it is the hard part.

There's no way for me to know for sure, but I think that this is what they wanted the voyria change to do in the first place, but it needs to have some form of balance limitation.  Sip Immunity is too easy.  It's also impossible to tell if they are sipping it, unlike eating herbs.

Antonius

I think the primary intention with voyria is that you use it to prevent passive curing getting somebody out of a lock you've already secured while you finish them off, so they can't sip immunity at that point anyway.

Silas

Ernam said:

@Jovolo Sure man - I've already messaged a few people about applying, and I'd be happy to make a few recommendations as well.  Also, my days useless complaints are long overwith.  I think people need to realize that there has been a span of 15 years that we've "known each other", and sometimes people change. 

@Silas

You're the exact same whiny asshole that wants everything on his terms.