PKing - Improvements

Strata

Jacen said:

I'll freely admit, xp loss is a significant part of why I'm not more active in PK than I am. PvP is an xp sink, and it just takes too damn much effort and time to earn xp just to toss it away. Some people antagonize others on the forums about their "precious textp" and I don't think that's very fair; xp gain represents a humongous investment as a player. 

Having said all that, I'm not very convinced that the removal of xp loss would be an appropriate solution. Obviously there are players here with a lot more knowledge and experience in PvP and PvE than me, but I think xp loss is still needed as a deterrent to excessive solo raiding or hunting way beyond your level. 

You're absolutely correct. Too bad the crybabies always win. Expect rainbows, cupcakes, and unicorns (in that order), from here on out.

Rip

Some reasons people avoid Player Killing.

1.  Lack of teaching and knowledge of Achaean skills themselves. 

1a.  Skills are acquired very fast for new players.

2.  The learning curve of coding. – Basic/Advanced

2a.  Better understanding of coding helps with Hunting and Roleplay.

3.  Time hunting lost due to being killed is a deal breaker.

4.  Screen spam is hard to deal with.

Brainstorming solutions

(1.)  My first thought, I enjoy teaching combat, perhaps there could be a new Romeo/Juliet (Caesar?) role?  This new role would be a volunteer position to help explain skills/code and answer combat questions.  Perhaps we could even have weekend classes on some distant island to help explain things to others that want to start to enjoy Player Killing.

(1a.) New learning text/messages from tutors. New players get a lot of skills quick.  There isn’t much time to get to know them before your receiving more and more skills.  I am sure this would be too much work, but it would be cool, that instead of just the same learning text.  If it actually had simple instruction to use each skill as they acquire them.  As there seems to be a lack of teaching in the realms. (my experience from role HoN, as serpent, and my opinion, if you teach the young I congrat you!)

(2.)  Because learning to code comes before you can enjoy Player Killing, most PKers have coding knowledge already (this is just my observation), I know most of the Shadowsnakes code for a living, and if some of our members don’t we start to teach and train them right away. 

Solution: Set up a GOOD OOC walkthrough to help players get started.  And introduce a role model like Caesar (1.), to answer any questions about getting things up and running.  This would help new and old players alike. Perhaps there could be a Free Combat Clan?   (Maybe there already is, if so I would like to join) This clan would be Admin monitored to keep everyone in line.

(2a.) With more coding knowledge you can control your Role Playing and Hunting much better and create fun and unique things. For instance, I have a Scroll Boy that I can summon, then depending on what weapon I am wielding, I will react to him differently.  If it’s a dirk, I slit his poor throat at the end and say something very coy.  If my bow, I will snipe him as he leaves.  Then I illusion him dying, but anyways…

(3.)  Experience loss is needed to create a risk, there most be something to lose if there is to be something to gain.  I give these following solutions below based on listening to players of Achaea:

Solution One: Re-experience takes half the time.  Sell 3 artefacts that increase this by 10%, 20% and 30%. So a level 3 re-experience thingy would be 80% faster to regain lost experience from your last highest point of experience.

Solution Two: Consider at night or once an IG week (maybe a certain day), with open PK, without experience loss, instead of getting rid of it all together.  This would encourage people just to even TRY.

Solution Three: Add another experience bracket, so you have Hunting Experience and Combat Experience. 

Hunting Experience: Would be gained and lost only if killing denizens or if they kill you, this would determine what level you are in the game so hunting to Dragon is still fun, and there is still a risk to die from a bunch of zombies.  If a player comes and attacks you and you die from the player, you lose combat experience, if the denizen gets you, you lose hunting experience.

Combat Experience: Would have a different perk, as you level, perhaps you would gain neat things that would make you want to level this up by Player Killing. Some examples, limit Earring use, once you are combat level 20, you can use it twice a day.  Level 40, 4 times…Veil Use, Level 1 combat rating, you get 10 minutes with a veil, level 10 you get a day, level 70, you get a full week. Just ideas, just ideas! (Hides behind @Strata)

(4.) Screen spam has always been a major issue. With Mudlet, pretty easy to gag things, but if you don’t know how, then it’s a mystery.  

Solution One: Server-Side Gags.  I am not sure what is possible these days, but this would be helpful for the HTML5 and mobile gaming.

Solution Two: Teach gagging lines in Mudlet along with combat with my above ideas. (1.)

@jacen - You would think losing XP would actually be fun because you get to hunt more?  Obliviously this is not the case.  The experience model is an old one, perhaps it could be modernized just not deleted.  I would like to hear and talk about ideas on this as well.

Rip

  @Strata - As players of the same game I feel we all have at least that in common, so being rude and mean to each other IG or OOC should be frowned upon.  The issue command should be only used for seriously bad form and just what to you have against cupcakes and rainbows anyways?

I tried to get something going last year, like a Code of Conduct. 

Here is the forum link: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/1101

Again, this forum topic is to discuss PKing/PvP and how to improve it for new/old players of Achaea.

After a week I will wrap it up and "briefly" present it to the Admin.  Fair?

Antidas

I won't comment on everything, but I will say that for me, xp-loss is one of the big reasons I love Achaea. Most games have little to no consequences for dying (e.g. running back to your body/small equipment durability loss) and it allows players to basically throw themselves at an obstacle repeatedly until they finally surpass it. There's no reason not to, as the penalties for death are so small that it doesn't matter. I feel like the fact that you lose some XP when you die gives death the impression of having real consequences. The amount you lose is small enough to not be a massive deterrent, while being large enough to make you want to avoid it as much as possible. I would hate to see xp-loss taken away.

Shirszae

As much as I hate dying while hunting, I have to concur that it would just not be the same if death did not have the threat of setting you back. There's a certain excitement in hunting a dangerous mob, and a certain thrill in watching as your hp comes ever close to 0 without actually getting there.

Probably something similar to what pkers must feel while in raids or otherwise fighting players.

Still, to be perfectly honest, what keeps me from pk most of the time is not exp or anything like that, but the general attitude of people who while not majority, do make more noise than the majority.  

Jhui

Shirszae said:

Still, to be perfectly honest, what keeps me from pk most of the time is not exp or anything like that, but the general attitude of people who while not majority, do make more noise than the majority.  

need to get better at ignoring shitty people and/or forums

Strata

Rip said:

  @Strata - As players of the same game I feel we all have at least that in common, so being rude and mean to each other IG or OOC should be frowned upon.  The issue command should be only used for seriously bad form and just what to you have against cupcakes and rainbows anyways?

I tried to get something going last year, like a Code of Conduct. 

Here is the forum link: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/1101

Again, this forum topic is to discuss PKing/PvP and how to improve it for new/old players of Achaea.

After a week I will wrap it up and "briefly" present it to the Admin.  Fair?

imo you're just opening up a can of worms that will probably result in more coddling of the "victims". it's a really simple concept: nothing you do is going to make PK more "enjoyable" for people who don't "enjoy" PK.

when you take them out of their little safety bubble for more than a few seconds, they start having anxiety attacks and then this happens: setalias greet issue.

Bluef

I agree with @Strata. ISSUES have gotten completely out of hand and are a main reason I don't PK half as much as I used to. Instead of being used for fairly serious breaches of immersion like seconds abuse or harassment, they've become a go-to crutch for players who don't like the outcome of a fight. Such administrative measures are supposed to be OOC, yet they have become an integral part of Achaea's in character life to the point that I routinely have people threaten or try to goad me to issue the moment I point my imperious finger at them. How does invading someone's mind screaming, "I'm going to issue you!" or "If you don't like my harassment, issue me!" not create a rift in a player's engrossment in a game? 

It's even become a divine response to certain situations instead of simply taking the time to address the roleplay needs of organizational conflict: Don't like that a player or group of players are roleplaying something against or about your organization that may or may not even involve killing you or your members? Issue them! You'll get slapped with a handy roleplay restraining order that prevents them from doing so in the future. Oh, sure they'll still be able to talk smack about you, roleplay that you're their enemy, keep you perma-enemied, etc. but there's no further need for reasoning for this other than to scream, "Lathis said so!"

What I think is missing in Achaea, more than anything else, is resolution. We fight. We die. We're enemied. We come back to life. We do it all over again. There is never any cool down period or the desired resolution or true reckoning for one's actions that creates a sense of deeper reality in the game. Kick a newbie 250 years ago in a city - you can be enemied forever. But slaughter an entire village of mhun or vertani over and over and over and over again  - and nobody cares, nothing happens to you apart from gaining experience. Roleplay as much as PK is impacted by this apathetic approach to existence. 

.

@Rip caught my eye when he mentioned denizens hiring on you for hunting villages. It reminded me of some of the best PK/RP combinations I've seen in Achaea recently: @Xith's ideas for the GOM and Moghedu. @Hirst and the POM's pay us or sink roleplay. I love that stuff. When it happens to you the first time you're bewildered, then a sense of mild dread fills you when you realize oh crap maybe THIS was a bad idea, and then finally you're offered some kind of resolution: Don't hunt here, pay your fine/toll, etc. Then IC life goes on. I've never seen the GOM enemy anyone forever or the POM constantly harass specific ships after they've paid their toll because they're genuinely interested in roleplaying their version of resolution.

So in addition to the great ideas @Rip has proposed here, I humbly suggest the following addition:

1.   Lack of teaching and knowledge of Achaean skills themsleves

1a. Skills are acquired very fast for new players

2.   The learning curve of coding - Basic/Advanced.

2a.  Better understanding of coding helps with Hunting and Roleplay.

3.    Time hunting lost due to being killed is a deal breaker.

4.    Screen spam is hard to deal with.

5.    Lack of any discernible Code of Conduct for players
5a.  Without this, there is no mutual level of respect for what we do here in Achaea
6.    A gaming culture that rewards lack of resolution. 

6a.  Perma-enemying makes it impossible for a player to address past wrongs or change their roleplay

6b.  Lack of repercussions for repetitive hunting sprees or questing lessens their roleplay value

There are probably more examples for #6 but I'll leave others to decide if they are worth mentioning or inclusion here and what some possible solutions might be.

Wynedere

While xp loss does stop quite a few people from being involved in pk, its removal will not help at all. If anything, it will remove just about all incentive for restraint. In MKO, there is no xp loss for pk death. Players -still- complain about it as much as they do here. 

Cooper

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

Naah

Or y'know...
Mephaos.

Jovolo

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

Hardly. I've been back on an alt for a week now and I've already been issued for [nope, you don't get to misrepresent your issue situation to try to support your own argument.] People seriously use issues as a defense, it just means you're lucky enough to not have crossed them. People should be punished for using issues instead of Marks.

Kafziel

Cooper said:

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.

Strata

Kafziel said:

Cooper said:

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.

The problem is, it's like playing minesweeper and the amount of mines is increasing each time you manage not to get issued. And it's not just about what the rules say in regard to PK. Sure, if I want to be an asshole that plays within the rules, I'm still an asshole. But doing so has brought me issues that I still lost even though they were dismissed. You get punished now even if you were following the rules.

As an example, I might have been playing within the rules, but the one who issued was taken at face value for everything he said - including all the messages and tells (which are not public outlets) where he initiated OOC dialogue which magically transformed into: Strata is OOC, has bad form, preys on AFKers, and several other things that aren't true, and had nothing to do with the original reason behind the issue (illegal PK - which was dismissed because he lied and said he wasn't infamous). Result: Issue dismissed but I was still punished - got docked a credibility point for OOC without any evidence - just some kid's crying and bitching in an issue that was full of lies to begin with.

Administration has no problem turning a blind eye to anyone who takes extreme measures to ignore and separate themselves from people they generally consider to be "toxic" players. From my experience, those that are considered toxic are not breaking any rules whatsoever. Shecks? Xith? They're loud, indeed. I'm surprised I haven't been banned from forums yet as well.

Xith is an awesome role-player. Yet he was constantly issued over GoM stuff because... why? 10 Mhaldorians got pissed off they were hired on for repeatedly 10v1'ing him in and out of Moghedu? Xith decides to hire some marks and Mhaldor's response is to write a f*king issue? Please...

I could keep going but this is falling on deaf ears. </rant>

Trey

Kafziel said:

Cooper said:

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.

Well wouldn't that make the attack reason the defilement, rather than the dangerous plane, and thus you -could- chase them? Or was the defilement not in UW?

Strata

Trey said:

Kafziel said:

Cooper said:

I haven't been issued for pk in probably 5 years at least. If you're getting issued on a frequent basis you're being an asshole about it.

There are certain people who will issue for anything though, like being chased out of Underworld and killed (yeah I forgot you're not allowed to chase anymore) after defiling a Sartan shrine.. but generally if you avoid those few exceptions you can PK issue-free.

Well wouldn't that make the attack reason the defilement, rather than the dangerous plane, and thus you -could- chase them? Or was the defilement not in UW?

Attacking someone for defiling is not within the rules unless you have some other form of cause on the person who was defiling. As far as I know, the witness system is supposed to be used in order to convict known defilers and put mark contracts out on them. Though, it is never used. Usually what happens is this: if you're just some midbie schmuck and you get involved with defiling, you are repeatedly ganked by 5+ people (and all their non-order friends) who's shrines you defiled. If you decide to get revenge on them for doing so (they've already broken the rules), YOU'RE the one who gets punished for some stupid shit like circular conflict/RP.

Trey

Well that's pretty fucking stupid. Defilement in and of itself is an aggressive action. If you're a member of the Order in question, it should be reason enough for a retaliatory action. It's the way it seems to be handled anyhow.

Strata

Trey said:

Well that's pretty fucking stupid. Defilement in and of itself is an aggressive action. If you're a member of the Order in question, it should be reason enough for a retaliatory action. It's the way it seems to be handled anyhow.

Role-play wise (and I know many think I have no right to talk about this since the prevailing belief is that I don't RP), it makes perfect sense to attack defilers on sight and even crusade against them and murder the shit out of them.

Defiling is the most disrespectful thing one can do to your chosen deity and your beliefs. I can't think of any consequence other than killing the defilers immediately that makes sense in that situation.

However, I was just pointing out that the current rules, as I understand them, seem contradictory to that. It's just kind of sad that often what happens is the defiler gets both sides of the shit-stick in the form of repeated ganks followed by administrative actions after some of the order members cry foul when they "lose".

Trey

Strata said:

Trey said:

Well that's pretty fucking stupid. Defilement in and of itself is an aggressive action. If you're a member of the Order in question, it should be reason enough for a retaliatory action. It's the way it seems to be handled anyhow.

Role-play wise (and I know many think I have no right to talk about this since the prevailing belief is that I don't RP), it makes perfect sense to attack defilers on sight and even crusade against them and murder the shit out of them.

Defiling is the most disrespectful thing one can do to your chosen deity and your beliefs. I can't think of any consequence other than killing the defilers immediately that makes sense in that situation.

However, I was just pointing out that the current rules, as I understand them, seem contradictory to that. It's just kind of sad that often what happens is the defiler gets both sides of the shit-stick in the form of repeated ganks followed by administrative actions after some of the order members cry foul when they "lose".

Oh, I wasn't trying to say anything about you, just the logic flying out of the window with defilements.

Cooper

You won't lose an issue for killing someone while they are defiling if you are closely affiliated with the order, assuming no previous harassment etc.

Strata

Cooper said:

You won't lose an issue for killing someone while they are defiling if you are closely affiliated with the order, assuming no previous harassment etc.

Probably not. But all the defiler has to do is call it harassment even if you killed them one time. Then you're getting punished even if the issue is dropped. The definition of harassment in Achaea has gone from "this is legit harassment like holy shit call the cops IRL harassment" to "XYZ person from an enemy faction has killed me 3 times in the last IRL week. THEY'RE HARASSING ME!!!!"

Antonius

If you're a member of the Order all you have to do is WITNESS SHRINE to get a writ, then you have roleplay justification to kill them along with hard coded proof that you did indeed witness it. Assuming you actually saw them defiling that shouldn't be a problem unless you walked in right as the shrine was destroyed.

One thing that would be nice is if it didn't have such a huge balance cost attached to it.

Lorath

Issuing for PK should be removed for all but the most extreme cases. I haven't been jumped to many times but I refuse to issue over a PK game and much rather see it handled through IC means. But then again I am an old school Mud player and prefer issuing over minor stupid issues. And the biggest issue with experience loss is the 80 range, which everyone should know by now, time for hunting vs what you can lose is just harder when compared at level 70 or 90.

Strata

Lorath said:

Issuing for PK should be removed for all but the most extreme cases. I haven't been jumped to many times but I refuse to issue over a PK game and much rather see it handled through IC means. But then again I am an old school Mud player and prefer issuing over minor stupid issues. And the biggest issue with experience loss is the 80 range, which everyone should know by now, time for hunting vs what you can lose is just harder when compared at level 70 or 90.

I think issues would be a lot better if you only got 10 words and you were stuck in divine grace until the issue is handled. If the issue gets dismissed as frivolous, the issuer gets disfavored.

Makarios

If you're not shrubbed, you've not been punished for harassment. Just to clear that up!

Bluef

Antonius said:

If you're a member of the Order all you have to do is WITNESS SHRINE to get a writ, then you have roleplay justification to kill them along with hard coded proof that you did indeed witness it. Assuming you actually saw them defiling that shouldn't be a problem unless you walked in right as the shrine was destroyed. One thing that would be nice is if it didn't have such a huge balance cost attached to it.

It would be also nice if the person who defiled had a way to view the writs held against them. That single message is often lost in the defiling/fighting spam. I've had several people claim to have writs, but issuing myself revealed that no one actually did. I also don't think people realize that these can be held for a certain about of time and then yielded to an order and given to a mark to handle - and when that happens the timing starts all over again. It might cut down on issuing if people realized that yes, in fact, you can be "legally" hunted for quite some time by different people if you get witnessed. 

Naah

Not combat related but I was discussing Evil to a newbie Eleusian who decides they wanted to shittalk me for my name, then my faction. I got pretty passionate, I admit, but the moment they ran out of points to counter how Evil would overcome Nature, and how they were simply an ignorant heathen who would eventually fall under the whip; I got issued then ignored.

Like.. What? I mean, if you're that upset say that you're done and the conversation is over. Don't just flip shit and issue me for harassing you. -You- were the one who started it. -You- are the one who is an 18 year old alt and not acting accordingly. I mean, Achaea has become an Elementary School playground. We, the people who try to enjoy the game (big kids) are simply about our business and react to things based on our belief and faction, then the (little kids) people who simply can't win a fight in any format because they lack the brain capacity to form a sentence and speak it, run to the teacher (Admins) and report us. And no matter how we try to defend ourselves, the little kids are always 'right' what we did didn't follow the 'rules.'

I mean, I decided to screw around with Eleusis, and out of no where @Alrena beats the living shit out of me. It was a good laugh. Was it provoked? Maybe. Did I do any damage? Hell no. I was just shouting bad jokes and praying I didn't get shot down.(TREMBLE IN FEAR HEATHEN SCUM)

@Kafziel and I had a huge misunderstanding when I was being stupid. Like I blatantly verbally bitched him out. And what happened? We resolved it together, just took some communication.

@Strata still picks on me whenever I'm infamous. I may be afk/DC/hunting whatever. Do I issue? No. I deal with it. Because its not that hard to admit that I'm bad, but can get better with practice. And we still talk.

I strongly feel like Achaea has literally had to lower their standards to make space for newbies who don't know any better. Consequences are there for a reason, they need to learn, not get what they want put on their laps. This is why I like Mhaldor. Maybe our Houses aren't perfect, maybe our Naga aren't as 'good' as the Shadowsnakes or whatever, but at least we maintain respect and consequences. And I personally respect any and every House. Each character possesses a distinct belief and morales, what you choose is your choice, not mine. Naah may detest Targossas, but damn well ban me/her from the game I'd she fails to show some form of respect to the Blood Sworn. If you don't like Mhaldor standards, get out, or be forced out. This should be reinforced through out Achaea, and remove issuing altogether. It has become abused and pointless.

EDIT: my conclusion is that only the people who are immature and hold no communication skills use issuing. It should only be reserved for true harassment.

If anything is mispelt or bad I apologize. Wrote all this on a phone.

Alrena

I haven't had any problems with issues myself. There were plenty of times where I was jumped for no (or poor) reasons (hi, Proficy), but I never felt like issueing. I can handle it, and if I raid and defile, then especially.

On one hand, you hear stories of midbies being ganked for defending. That's ridiculous, and should stop. On the other hand, I hear people issueing for things that happen in UW/Annwyn, for feeling insulted. @Rangor was issued -three- times in the first hour of the xp event. Is there really that little tolerance? I'm kinda sad to hear that people get punished, when the issuer hasn't even bothered looking for IC resolution. Hiring a Mark is easy enough. Frivolous issueing should be punished as much as 'breaking pk rules' is, and then soon enough people will only issue for -real- harrassment and griefing, not "Oh no I got jumped three times in a free pk zone!"

Just the opinions of a casual pk'r.

(also, @Naah, you totally deserved to die for those bad jokes. I did only jump you but once, and by myself, in my defense! )

Rip

Ok before this turns into a rant about the ISSUE command, I am,

A. Going to read the help scroll,

B. Going to Issue someone for a test and then

C. Brainstorm some ideas that maybe could make this more understandable. (Which would be the best place to start.)

I have never used "issue" before, is there a general issue?  Ie, People being rude/offensive, IRL threats, or killing innocents?  (Or has this simple gone to , you hurt my feelings today, so to hurt yours, I am going to issue you?)

Apparently, if your "not a shrub" your fine, which is a relief.  Perhaps there needs to be a soothing reminder that being issued is not the end of the line and issuing players without IRL cause/reason, should be heavily discouraged.

- Player Killing is a type of game, not a behavior in a game.  Which I suppose is where my general confusion is stemming from.

  @Naah, I agree with you, that people need to learn to live and consequences it's what makes this game fun.  One of consequences,  should not be issuing players.  We should not have to be in fear of this.

I always thought the issue was in OOC command was for SERIOUS stuff.  I mean, 'IRL Life threats, OOC bullying, and harassment'?

Before I go overboard here, maybe we could come up with some ideas on how to make issuing more consequential/meaningful?

Strata

Rip said:

Before I go overboard here, maybe we could come up with some ideas on how to make issuing more consequential/meaningful?

They just gotta delete it. Facebook and iPhones have given rise to the snitch culture. Today's generation and the future generation of their kids will continue to become even more sensitive to things like feelings.

Also blame that terrible emo shit music like Kings of Leon or whatever - making them cry and wear tight jeans that compresses their nutsacks and makes them cry even more (and then issue more because their

nutsacks are compressed). Solutions: delete the ISSUE command. delete Kings of Leon. delete emos. also delete everyone who WTF's this post. especially @Mithridates - I bet he's jamming to Kings of Leon RIGHT... NOW.