Curing

Wessux

Ernam said:

Also, I can't wait to see how server side queuing pans out with things like salve curing, as right now things like heartseed, axk, Disembowel, and rising star are all essentially either 100% unstoppable or 100% guaranteed, depending on how server queuing handles priorities. From my initial playing it looks very easy to set up a simple guaranteed heartseed setup that can only be prevented by disabling server queuing and manually taking over.

Tumble

You're welcome for that life changing advice. Feel free to pay me in large sums of gold or credits.

Jovolo

30% of classes used illusions to a significant (potentially dependable) degree in their offense?

Jovolo

Wessux said:

Also, I can't wait to see how server side queuing pans out with things like salve curing, as right now things like heartseed, axk, Disembowel, and rising star are all essentially either 100% unstoppable or 100% guaranteed, depending on how server queuing handles priorities. From my initial playing it looks very easy to set up a simple guaranteed heartseed setup that can only be prevented by disabling server queuing and manually taking over.

Tumble You're welcome for that life changing advice. Feel free to pay me in large sums of gold or credits.

You can also just do CURING AFFLICTIONS OFF in the situations where you don't want to cure lest you die. The system still auto sips for you and you can turn curing back on when you need to. And frankly if you can't do that then why should you not die to a well set-up instant kill while using the basic server-side curing.

Wessux

Jovolo said:

Wessux said:

Ernam said:

Also, I can't wait to see how server side queuing pans out with things like salve curing, as right now things like heartseed, axk, Disembowel, and rising star are all essentially either 100% unstoppable or 100% guaranteed, depending on how server queuing handles priorities. From my initial playing it looks very easy to set up a simple guaranteed heartseed setup that can only be prevented by disabling server queuing and manually taking over.

Tumble

You're welcome for that life changing advice. Feel free to pay me in large sums of gold or credits.

You can also just do CURING AFFLICTIONS OFF in the situations where you don't want to cure lest you die. The system still auto sips for you and you can turn curing back on when you need to. And frankly if you can't do that then why should you not die to a well set-up instant kill while using the basic server-side curing.


Still feel free to pay me in large sums of gold or credits.

Edit: Quoting on this forum site is the most wonky, bull$#it thing ever.

Utianima

As much as I sympathize with combatants proficient in illusions, I am happy for this update as a whole.

Newbie friendly, latency balancing, lag protection. Heck, I might try to hunt from my smartphone on occasion.

I am optimistic that time will provide for new skills for the affected classes, and that more good will come out of it than bad.

I agree that it's a pity we lose the creativity and innovation that was illusions, but I'd rather have this change (with it's pros) plus added longevity and growth for Achaea.

Edit: grammar and spelling.

Xli

Bluef said:

Xli said:

I'm all for it. Anything that gets more bodies through the door that actually stay for a while is good for Achaea, which means it's good for the existing playerbase....

Rather than immediately jumping up and down screaming how @Sarapis and @Tecton have destroyed your lives, about about seeing how things pan out for a while?

Nerfing an ability that nearly 30% of the classes in this game used regularly in PVP without warning to help make the world easier for newcomers, whether it draws in new people or not, is a bad move in my opinion for one reason: 

Even if this draws in some new people, which I'm not convinced it will - I'm more of a believer of oh, the lolalts will enjoy this, but whatever - it has, like so many decisions in the last couple of years further poisoned the well of current players. 

To be clear,  I'm not talking about the rhetorical device so often used against Bluef IC, but the fact that some very long-term, deeply invested players are unhappy about how this changed was implemented, its impact on their PvP, etc. Sure, you can't please everyone all the time, but as a business IRE should at least appear empathetic and try to retain the customers they already have, if their real goal is growth (because that only happens through both adding new customers and sustaining the commitment of the ones they already have). 

And let's be honest, every city and House I've been a part of has forbidden combat to its lowest ranks of members. By the time someone is able to PVP in most Houses, they're somewhat prepared to do so. Curing and illusions aren't a major deal breaker as to why they aren't joining in, but the cost of a combat system may be. I mean, if you can't pilfer your parent's credit card to pay for SVO, I suppose it would be frustrating if you were interested in joining Achaean combat. But I'd also wager that younger players are also not mature enough to handle some of the over the top emotionality of PVP in Achaea, as evidenced by Rants and several other threads on this forum. 

Sure, not everyone who doesn't buy SVO is young. Maybe someone just doesn't have the cash to invest in the game? Fine. I can see server-side curing as a bonus to that. But I still don't think Achaea should have devalued the class and artefact investments already made by players to offer this. It has nothing to do with me whining - I can still kill the same people I was able to kill before. I just have far less agility in my ability to do so, and that is a valid complaint. 

I re-iterate, let's give it a little time to pan out. Only server side curing is affected, not client side, and there won't be all that many people making the jump from one to the other quickly.

The overwhelming air of negativity the greets every change is really quite depressing. Sure, it some warning could have been given, but what would that have achieved? People moaning about it before it had been implemented.

Iocun

I agree, "warning" would be pretty much pointless for something like that. Plus, if you've been following the developments over the last year or so, it isn't surprising at all.

As for an "overwhelming air of negativity"... I don't think this is actually the case. The majority of people seem to like the change. That there is some negativity too is understandable, as any major change like that also comes with drawbacks, and for some, those drawbacks weigh more heavily than for others. I doubt IRE expected every player to love the change - that would have been rather naive.

Nemutaur

I think in the end serpents will switch to trying to fool the client side affliction tracking to get us to switch priorities wrongly. Or actually illusioning other stuff like them shielding a lot so people who track that in their offense get boned. There will still be room for illusions, but if serpents are getting the tradeskill rework that people are hoping for with more sneakyness then illusions will not be playing a huge role in their offense anyway.

Iocun

I'll illusion an imp asking interesting paradoxical riddles to catch their attention and get distracted from fighting.

Bluef

Jovolo said:

30% of classes used illusions to a significant (potentially dependable) degree in their offense?

Yes. 5 classes were impacted. There are 17 classes (18 if you count dragon). That means that the server-side curing potentially impacts nearly 30%,of all classes.

If you're a jester, shaman, serpent, etc. who didn't use illusions - that doesn't negate the fact that illusions were before this a viable combat strategy. It just means you didn't use the class to its fullest while it was still possible to do so on those with server-side curing.

Daslin

Wut are illusions?

If you're seriously raging about this, I feel bad for you. Takes time, but things get balanced out. Don't be all grr because of change. You remind me of my father. I tried to change from the old style light bulb to a newer one, to save him electricity and he lost his ever loving mind.

Just breathe, seriously. Things will turn out okay. I promise. It's like coming out of the closet, "It gets better."

Nemutaur

Bluef said:

Jovolo said:

30% of classes used illusions to a significant (potentially dependable) degree in their offense?

Yes. 5 classes were impacted. There are 17 classes (18 if you count dragon). That means that the server-side curing potentially impacts nearly 30%,of all classes.

If you're a jester, shaman, serpent, etc. who didn't use illusions - that doesn't negate the fact that illusions were before this a viable combat strategy. It just means you didn't use the class to its fullest while it was still possible to do so on those with server-side curing.

As with all new sytems new illusions will be found. Combat illusions are not going to be obsolete immediately, they will probably just focus more on trickery to force priority changes in curing afflictions that are actually present on the person rather than making the opponent think they got a new aff to cure it.

Iocun

Daslin said:

Wut are illusions?

If you're seriously raging about this, I feel bad for you. Takes time, but things get balanced out. Don't be all grr because of change. You remind me of my father. I tried to change from the old style light bulb to a newer one, to save him electricity and he lost his ever loving mind.

Just breathe, seriously. Things will turn out okay. I promise. It's like coming out of the closet, "It gets better."

I agree with your father. I hate those modern bulbs.

Bluef

Xli said:

Bluef said:

Xli said:

I'm all for it. Anything that gets more bodies through the door that actually stay for a while is good for Achaea, which means it's good for the existing playerbase....

Rather than immediately jumping up and down screaming how @Sarapis and @Tecton have destroyed your lives, about about seeing how things pan out for a while?

Nerfing an ability that nearly 30% of the classes in this game used regularly in PVP without warning to help make the world easier for newcomers, whether it draws in new people or not, is a bad move in my opinion for one reason: 

Even if this draws in some new people, which I'm not convinced it will - I'm more of a believer of oh, the lolalts will enjoy this, but whatever - it has, like so many decisions in the last couple of years further poisoned the well of current players. 

To be clear,  I'm not talking about the rhetorical device so often used against Bluef IC, but the fact that some very long-term, deeply invested players are unhappy about how this changed was implemented, its impact on their PvP, etc. Sure, you can't please everyone all the time, but as a business IRE should at least appear empathetic and try to retain the customers they already have, if their real goal is growth (because that only happens through both adding new customers and sustaining the commitment of the ones they already have). 

And let's be honest, every city and House I've been a part of has forbidden combat to its lowest ranks of members. By the time someone is able to PVP in most Houses, they're somewhat prepared to do so. Curing and illusions aren't a major deal breaker as to why they aren't joining in, but the cost of a combat system may be. I mean, if you can't pilfer your parent's credit card to pay for SVO, I suppose it would be frustrating if you were interested in joining Achaean combat. But I'd also wager that younger players are also not mature enough to handle some of the over the top emotionality of PVP in Achaea, as evidenced by Rants and several other threads on this forum. 

Sure, not everyone who doesn't buy SVO is young. Maybe someone just doesn't have the cash to invest in the game? Fine. I can see server-side curing as a bonus to that. But I still don't think Achaea should have devalued the class and artefact investments already made by players to offer this. It has nothing to do with me whining - I can still kill the same people I was able to kill before. I just have far less agility in my ability to do so, and that is a valid complaint. 

I re-iterate, let's give it a little time to pan out. Only server side curing is affected, not client side, and there won't be all that many people making the jump from one to the other quickly.

The overwhelming air of negativity the greets every change is really quite depressing. Sure, it some warning could have been given, but what would that have achieved? People moaning about it before it had been implemented

No, @Xli, discussion of valid concerns could have taken place. 

Daslin said:

Wut are illusions?

If you're seriously raging about this, I feel bad for you. Takes time, but things get balanced out. Don't be all grr because of change. You remind me of my father. I tried to change from the old style light bulb to a newer one, to save him electricity and he lost his ever loving mind.

Just breathe, seriously. Things will turn out okay. I promise. It's like coming out of the closet, "It gets better."

It is amazing to me that people want to actually spend time portraying the people impacted by this change as cry babies. It is a huge change. 

Then again, just look at the forum bias in this thread. People can call others delusional and insult them and their pretty valid concerns without repercussion. Good, ol' Achaea. Keeping it real - real imbalanced.

Let's just stick to the actual outcomes and issues related to the change, mk?

Sarapis

Lots of discussion took place, just not on the forums, as there was no reason to. There's only one thing that's really negatively affected by this (illusions) and we were well aware some illusion users were going to dislike it, so not much to discuss.

Nim

@Bluef: The only point you've brought is that some classes are now imbalanced, which doesn't really make this change a bad one - it just means that they'll have to be rebalanced around it. I do agree that it'd have been cool to give people time to test new things out, and get any bugs or other things out of the system, before running a classleads, but oh well - it's not like this'll be the last classleads ever.

And then it was the last classlead. Ever.

Tecton

Nim said:

@Bluef: The only point you've brought is that some classes are now imbalanced, which doesn't really make this change a bad one - it just means that they'll have to be rebalanced around it. I do agree that it'd have been cool to give people time to test new things out, and get any bugs or other things out of the system, before running a classleads, but oh well - it's not like this'll be the last classleads ever.

And then it was the last classlead. Ever.

There's still over a week left to submit classleads, and now everyone has an additional two reports (in the event they had already submitted five)

Nim

Tecton said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: The only point you've brought is that some classes are now imbalanced, which doesn't really make this change a bad one - it just means that they'll have to be rebalanced around it. I do agree that it'd have been cool to give people time to test new things out, and get any bugs or other things out of the system, before running a classleads, but oh well - it's not like this'll be the last classleads ever.

And then it was the last classlead. Ever.

There's still over a week left to submit classleads, and now everyone has an additional two reports (in the event they had already submitted five)

Technically true, but a week isn't much time to learn the pecularities of the new system. Maybe it is for more hardcore PvPers than I, but I'll be lucky if I have enough time to figure out how it all works by then. x:

Tharvis

agreed with @Nim here, the classleads should be extended a bit, or another one held within reasonable time to fully encompass possible feedback about the new system

Tecton

No real objections to adding another week or so to submissions if people want that.

Jhui

ew no

Can't release a huge cheap lessons package, then delay classleads for us classhoppers.  I would have to be put on suicide watch.  @Dunn already is

Antonius

The (potential) issue with any classleads to address the lack of illusions is that not everybody (possibly not even more than a small percentage of people for some time) will be using server side curing.

At that point it becomes a question of whether you balance around illusions never working. If you do there's the possibility the class is too strong when you add that element back in. If you don't there's the possibility that the class is too weak against server side curing.

That's not a new issue by any means, but we have come to its logical extreme now. Vadimuses' suggestion that afflictions and defences are exposed via GMCP would put everybody on the same footing, making it easier to frame any suggested changes.

Jovolo

I was thinking the extra two submissions were for the illusion implications rather than just the use of the system which I'm sure will continue to be worked on past classleads.

Jhui

GMCP affs would be incredible.  Could leave the hidden affs off until Diag.

This would completely eliminate the need to trigger the 10000 potential affliction lines

Antonius

@Jhui Yeah, I'd expect it to track the same way that the server side curing does. You wouldn't be told about hidden afflictions until you saw symptoms or diagnosed.

Also removes a lot of the work involved in building your own system, which might encourage more people to actually do so.

Alaskar

I think this change is going to help in keeping new player in the game overall. I mean, no longer do they have to learn not only the mechanics of the game but an entire coding language on top of that. The lessons bonus gives them the ability to get a taste of their skills, and they can happily engage in combat with people of their own level. And like it or not, new players= more fun for everyone. I'm a little disappointed that retard won't entirely cripple certain people now but meh, it happens.

As for people griping about it...I've always been a little disappointed that you can buy a great system, and actively participate in combat at a decent level, or learn to write your own system and spend years working on it. How many here use SVO? If you didn't write it yourself, then you can't really complain about a free system. Unless you'd like to make the argument that only people who can afford to buy a system should be able to participate in combat?

And to be frank, that's one of the biggest things that probably hinders new players- they get here, and unless they're blind, dumb and deaf they learn that to really participate in Achaean combat (a large part of the game, I remind you) they need to either A.) earn a degree in programming or B.) spend some money.

tl;dr @Sarapis @Tecton Great change, you get my vote, whatever it's worth. I think it's great you guys try to improve the game for -everyone- and try to balance what new players want with what the old salt dogs want.

Edit: Forgot to add @Makarios to the list.

Dunn

Please don't extend leads. If you can't think of adequate leads in the remaining week, I don't think another week would do any good.

Jhui

If GMCP is not a viable option, could we at least get a [CURING] Afflicted with <blah> similar to the message when you cure something?

Jarrod

I'd estimate the number of people seriously impacted by this in terms of lost offense at less than ten, probably less than five.

Two of those people have made their cases on why they didn't like it but will deal with it. The rest of the complainers are not in that list.

Nemutaur

I think the only reason that affs wouldn't be added to gmcp or have a [Curing]: You have been afflicted with <aff> is that it would really render combat illusions totally worthless. Right now they would still retain a little viability once people get used to how the new system is curing and they figure out how opponents are switching priorities so it can be exploited by them.