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  • AlexandreAlexandre Raleigh, North CarolinaMember Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    While you may not understand the desire to involve newcomers, it appears to be a desire of the people that run the game and one of their main interests as it relates to their business model.

    It's always unfortunate and hard to deal with nerfs for your class that seemingly come out of nowhere. However, I don't believe whining and moaning about it is very productive. Like has been mentioned, stating your case for what should be changed to replace illusions for Serpents is the best course of action.

    Overall, allowing for easier immersion into the game for new players and lessening the initial headache with starting out is much more important than one ability. I have plenty of faith that something will be done to make the Serpent class balanced and the playerbase that uses this class happy, especially with classleads happening.

  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Jacen said: Because the admins have ultimate control over the game. They decided that the immediate release of a server-side curing system was more important than waiting for the forums/classleads/ACC to address the (five?) classes and the artefact that lost an ability. Yes, you are getting the raw end of a deal, in that respect, but you just have to deal with what the boss hands you and then make your response. I don't think anyone would argue that illusions have lost most of their effectiveness since implementation due to modern curing systems, and thus the admin probably felt that it wouldn't be a massive nerf, nor incredibly hard to buff back with new/repurposed abilities. You lost the ability to illusion. That's where you are right now. Make your case as to why you shouldn't have to live without its benefits.

    If admin can't figure out why this needs to be addressed, or why this roll out jumped the gun leaving several unanswered questions for numerous classes, that's pretty sad. It wouldn't surprise me if they did though, so here you go:

    VODUN/PUPPET ILLUSION was a skill that shamans and jesters regularly use in combat, just like serpents did, to obtain locks, test curing, etc. etc. etc. 

    Increasing fashion won't do much good for us though because, guess what, dolls don't work the same way bites do (and vodun/puppetry is already riddled with issues surrounding how quickly dolls decay and how difficult it is to obtain fashions quickly). Curses could-do, but there is nothing equivalent for jesters in pranks (certainly not bop). 

    I look forward to seeing how this will be addressed. 
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Guys, illusion went nowhere. This curing system is nowhere near ready to replace SVO or comparable systems.

    It's for da newbies, your illusions are safe. (For now)
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,617 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I also want to state something that has always bugged me about illusions in combat:

    How the f- does illusioning (that is, sending false visual cues) actually make people believe they were, oh, I don't know, having thin blood, or puking?
    It made no sense, and it was a very gimmicky metagame (read OOC) skill.

    I won't miss offensive illusions, I'm just veeery excited about the new skills.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's never explicitly stated that illusions have to be purely visual. Even in real life with nothing magic/supernatural, illusions aren't limited to tricking a person's eyes.
  • WynedereWynedere Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    :-bd I like all these new newbie-grabbin' changes as of late. Anything that helps newbies is wonderful in my eyes. More newbies who stick around = more players to have fun with. New and exciting players = a better player-base than we currently have now. We're looking at much more potential, and if all this helps to keep newbies, more revenue for an improved Achaea. 

    What could go wrong?!

  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,665 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Ernam said:
    Guys, illusion went nowhere. This curing system is nowhere near ready to replace SVO or comparable systems. It's for da newbies, your illusions are safe. (For now)
    I doubt it will completely replace client-side scripting, but that doesn't mean that experienced combatants will completely disregard it, as it does offer advantages in certain situations that client-side scripts can't offer, ranging from illusion-proofness, over increased speed for people with slower ping, to more safety during lag spikes and short disconnections, etc. I'm probably not the only one who's currently thinking about ways to integrate the server-side system into ones client-side curing in ways to get the best of both worlds in specific situations.

    Also keep in mind that while server-side curing is unlikely to become as complex as some client-side scripts any time soon, many of the reasons why client-side scripts have to be so complex are completely irrelevant for server-side curing. It's not just the parts that are very directly anti-illusion measures (but even those alone take up a rather substantial portion of any system). It's more that the mere fact that things like illusions and lag exist, forces systems to make many things a lot more complex than they'd have to be for a server-side system (e.g. the entire area of failsafes, symptom handling, etc.)
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    How does this work with retardation/aeon? Also, aside from illusions, it seems this would also nullify hidden/nonspecific/random afflicting, like blight, wrack, certain out-of-room puppet/vodun abilities, blackout, etc. Is that the case?
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Antonius said:
    @Bluef Might help if you went and tested the new curing first. Jesters need nothing to compensate right now, they can trivially destroy anybody using the server side curing without needing a single fashion. I get that you all want to cry about the sky falling but it's really premature.
    I'm not crying, @Antonious. You're also making assumptions here about what I've tested and what I haven't, but that's off-topic and I don't need to take this there.

    My original comments weren't premature either; they were in response to the Announce. According to that, illusions will not impact those with server-side curing. I use illusions in my combat. That means that some of my combat strategies no longer work on anyone actively using server-side curing.

    Then all I did was simply ask whether shamans and jesters were impacted by this too, whether any consideration went into that when this change was made, or whether the impact on those classes is considered to be so negligible as to not warrant compensating modifications similar to serpents. 

    These seem like reasonable questions to me - and no one else was asking them.
  • RipRip Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2014
      Ok, here is the deal I spend EACH second of my time on Achaea teaching young serpents how to effectively kill and cure, just ask any Shadowsnake.  They will back me 100%, why do I teach them, because this is a hard game folks, IT JUST IS.  Thankfully something I enjoy. Now...

      Before anyone suggests I want to kill newbies, no, never have and never will.  In fact I think this server side curing system is the best thing for fresh faces that understand little of a MUD and it's concepts, in fact I might even invite my Dad to play now. 

      I am getting the feeling most of you don't care and want the watered down version of the best PKing MUD around that has little to no stress, a shame that's exactly the opposite of what I am after.

      Why the restriction, if not to just save a newbies life?  I don't understand how a new curing system to help new people enter combat is viable when the very act of combat is something a majority of the player base no longer wishes.  Anyway, love all the new changes, and can't wait for more.

      And seeing that I am a Serpent I realize most of you care little for my murderous ways, my opinions mean nothing to you, I get it.  Who is going to stick up for the killers but the killers?  Who is going to stick up for the pickpockets but thieves?

      I realize it's a lost cause and I am done now,  I just don't understand anymore, maybe I am jaded by being one of the first, I remember what it was folks, and it was GOOD.  Really, most of you are missing out, I feel sorry you don't enjoy combat, probably as sorry as you feel that I HATE hunting and running the same quests over and over.  

      Is there a common ground? Guess not.

    Edited: for spelling errors, I am rather tired and going to bed, night everyone!

  • HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean
    It worked pretty well in retardation, @Sena, from what @Carmain and I tested.

    And from what I am told, it uh..just sits there until you diagnose against blight? I didn't personally test it. ask @Kafziel.

  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,939 Achaean staff
    It respects masked affs, yes. It will (or should, we probably missed some symptoms since they're all over the place) unmask affs if you encounter an affliction symptom or diagnose.
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aeon:  if you input a command in aeon, it will hit the sluggishly line then immediately try to smoke afterwards, so if you're spamming you won't cure out.  Would help if there was a toggle that would either:
    1. not process any commands you input and try to cure.
    2. work like retardation

    The current incarnation is the worst of both worlds.

    Retard:  your commands override the cures, so if you enter something that will be processed and a cure won't come through and void it.
  • DartegaDartega Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Things that are hidden (tested puppet concussion, puppet reckless) aren't acted upon until you diagnose. Wasn't working at the start, but seems to be fixed and told to BUG other things that should be unnoticed, if they aren't.  
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,665 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Sena said:
    How does this work with retardation/aeon? Also, aside from illusions, it seems this would also nullify hidden/nonspecific/random afflicting, like blight, wrack, certain out-of-room puppet/vodun abilities, blackout, etc. Is that the case?
    AFAIK, it will not detect "unknown" afflictions as they are afflicted, but recognize them as soon as any symptom message comes up. There are still a few aspects I'm unsure about though.

    Hypochondria will be an issue as well and may require a rework.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    @Iocun it's funny that you say that, I have already begun working with doing exactly what you mentioned. It's going to be tough to track what it's doing all the time, but there are definitely -some- situations where there is a lot to gain by toggling it on (basically only to ignore illusions). As of now I don't trust it at all over about 3 afflictions, as it simply can't compare to the dynamic affliction priority system I use. However, against illusion classes it appears to be marginally better at not getting over 3 afflictions In the first place, thanks to completely ignoring illusions.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 636 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Ernam If it completely ignores illusions, you can do away with all your anti-illusion and just make your clientside manipulate the priority list right? Put everything down into 21-25 and then just move afflictions that you think you have up into 1-2, they will be cured if they were real and not if they were false, so your dynamic priority can still work with it.
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I like this change. Hopefully it allows for a much easier entry barrier into the game and combat, along with the lesson price promotional.  I'm sure all of the issues will be sorted out.  I'm optimistic.

  • MannimarMannimar Member Posts: 983 @ - Epic Achaean
    What is considered the average ping that was implemented into the curing system?
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can't wait to start configuring this and test it out. I've got a constant 0.392 latency in the Philippines and frequent disconnects, so I'm excited to test the higher performance and continued curing if I lag out.

    Speaking as a Jester, illusions were never a huge part of my combat, although I do sort of suck as a Jester. I know people in the past have said HocusPocus is like a Jester's best friend with timed illusions and all that, but you had to be pretty good at scripting (I'm not) to ignore your own illusions. I've seen simple hinder/fling death techniques work better than any elaborate plan anyways.

  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    I am clearly still learning Shaman combat, yet every person, not just @Bluef I might add, have pointed me toward illusions in combat to do things to certain classes with less than 50 fashions. Which is what I have been working on, and been successful on in some instances although now they won't work against those on the HTML5 :( 
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Vadimuses said:
    Server-side curing is a splended idea that I fully support. I really like the fact that admins are now recognising how difficult working out good curing is. Won't get to appreciate the complexity of adding anti-illusion or having to trigger for exotic lines though ;)

    I can potentially see why server-side curing didn't get tricked-by-illusions support (that might have been difficult to work out), but I don't see why client-side systems should be left out of this feature. Adding afflictions to GMCP would be one way to equalise this.

    All in all, this is great for Achaea's newbies and I'm glad the game is getting onboard with this.
    Adding afflictions to GMCP would make illusions only useful for fooling limb counters/affliction trackers/tricking the player into thinking you've done something you didn't. I like the idea of using illusions to trick the player instead of the system, but when things are so fast paced, it's hard to tell what types of actions are going to be picked up on and which ones aren't - and then of the things that are seen by the player - will they be tricked?
    Nonetheless, keeping illusions will always leave an avenue for people to trick systems instead of players behind a character. So they'll likely be deleted entirely in the very near future.

    As a completely off-the-wall idea: What if a illusion was changed to conjure <target> affliction <affliction> and it were RNG'd with say a 10-15% (remember this well researched number?) chance of success that the server-side curing would assume it had that affliction when it actually did not? Just think, then the talisman of obfuscation which isn't being refunded (and the mask of lifevision which has been devalued) would have a purpose again! Could set a base range of say 2/3 success rate for the conjurer vs. someone without lifevision. 15% vs lifevision. Though if they have a talisman - it's back up to 30% success rate. To keep things on par with client-side curing, the afflictions could have a small preset of class-based lines that are sent along with a GMCP message. Obviously existing client-side anti-illusion will still be able to test for certain things regardless. But at least it solves the problem of being able to send arbitrary lines
    to another's client in an attempt to abuse system loopholes and cause Vadi's inbox to overflow with tears.
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I am not sure if someone pointed out already that the sever side curing system can also boost the player-base as to play on mobiles, and tablets. Also, there was no other way around for IRE to progress with the game and keep it running in the long term. People now are more keen to invest money than time over entertainment. Even though I do not like this update, I have been expecting it for more than 2 RL years. I am really not surprised.

    I just hope that the game will improve one way or another, so do not despair. In my opinion, the only thing that matters here is that Achaea will be alive as long as possible, and Muds in general.
    Light prevails, always
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Xli said:
    I'm all for it. Anything that gets more bodies through the door that actually stay for a while is good for Achaea, which means it's good for the existing playerbase. Making the barrier to entry to PK lower means there'll be more active combatants, so all you PK-obsessives should be jumping for joy. Due to the limitations on the on-line system, once a person becomes more involved in the intricacies of PK, they may wish to migrate to their own or a third party client based system, or perhaps some kind of hybrid that makes use of the new system in tandem with client side scripting (changing curing priorities, etc on the fly).

    Rather than immediately jumping up and down screaming how @Sarapis and @Tecton have destroyed your lives, about about seeing how things pan out for a while?
    Nerfing an ability that nearly 30% of the classes in this game used regularly in PVP without warning to help make the world easier for newcomers, whether it draws in new people or not, is a bad move in my opinion for one reason: 

    Even if this draws in some new people, which I'm not convinced it will - I'm more of a believer of oh, the lolalts will enjoy this, but whatever - it has, like so many decisions in the last couple of years further poisoned the well of current players. 

    To be clear,  I'm not talking about the rhetorical device so often used against Bluef IC, but the fact that some very long-term, deeply invested players are unhappy about how this changed was implemented, its impact on their PvP, etc. Sure, you can't please everyone all the time, but as a business IRE should at least appear empathetic and try to retain the customers they already have, if their real goal is growth (because that only happens through both adding new customers and sustaining the commitment of the ones they already have). 

    And let's be honest, every city and House I've been a part of has forbidden combat to its lowest ranks of members. By the time someone is able to PVP in most Houses, they're somewhat prepared to do so. Curing and illusions aren't a major deal breaker as to why they aren't joining in, but the cost of a combat system may be. I mean, if you can't pilfer your parent's credit card to pay for SVO, I suppose it would be frustrating if you were interested in joining Achaean combat. But I'd also wager that younger players are also not mature enough to handle some of the over the top emotionality of PVP in Achaea, as evidenced by Rants and several other threads on this forum. 

    Sure, not everyone who doesn't buy SVO is young. Maybe someone just doesn't have the cash to invest in the game? Fine. I can see server-side curing as a bonus to that. But I still don't think Achaea should have devalued the class and artefact investments already made by players to offer this. It has nothing to do with me whining - I can still kill the same people I was able to kill before. I just have far less agility in my ability to do so, and that is a valid complaint. 
This discussion has been closed.