Curing

Iocun

Ernam said:

The reason for this is because I have long noticed a trend from IRE of dumbing the game down, not just for newbies, but for everyone. This change, regardless of the quality of the curing system or how much it is used, shows that IRE wants to be less like a fine restaurant, and more like a McDonald's. Not because McDonald's is better, simply because it is more profitable.

I agree that combat in Achaea should stay a complex thing. There's nothing wrong with it being very difficult to excel in PvP. The problem with curing systems however is that it isn't a barrier of in-game skills, but something that happens largely outside the game: you're given the choice of either spending RL money on a system or develop a system on your own, by spending lots of time shuffling around code - time you are not actually spending playing the game.

If people have to spend much time for the game, yet without playing it, or are required to pay others to do the same for them, this hurts the game and its enjoyment value compared to barriers which can actually be overcome in-game (such as learning combat tactics, advancing in levels, reaching political positions, etc.).

Achaea may well strive to be a fine restaurant, but it shouldn't be a restaurant where in order to be served a meal you must present a PhD in Ancient Persian Literature.

Edoren

Iocun said:

If people have to spend much time for the game, yet without playing it, or are required to pay others to do the same for them, this hurts the game and its enjoyment value compared to barriers which can actually be overcome in-game (such as learning combat tactics, advancing in levels, reaching political positions, etc.).

Thank you! I think combat should be enjoyable, fun, and complex. I think this will do wonders for combat and getting people to enjoy it more.

Rip

@Alexandre, Completely agree with what you said and I humbly request the resurrection of Pacifism and ANYONE that doesn't want to fight can choose to be permanently GRACED, nuff said.

BRING BACK the Achaea we love!

 It's not about curing systems, it's not about illusions breaking them, we love Achaea because is WAS vastly different in all ways MUD, and now...it keeps being pushed to a place where it's just like all the others, 

The only reason I am a Mark is to say to all of you, BRING IT, come and kill me, I actually enjoy it, makes me feel like I am in the Old Achaea, where my life was on the line.  In fact if the PK rules were loosened, this place would be TOPS, but it isn't...so sad, as  a PvP, 2nd born serpent, I miss the old Achaea more than ANYTHING, Dumb and boring is what I don't WANT TO say, but that is what I feel.  What was the point to make the BEST player vs. player MUD then destroy your image with years of small adjustments and tweaks to make this place, "padded" and "weak" then put a huge restriction on what most of us seem to want.  Mind boggling.

  So, Instead of going APE SHIT over this, I say, Awesome but bring back PvP get rid of the PK help scroll, killing someone as it states makes others instantly view murderers as "being a jerk", let us handle it in Sapience, and let us kill each other again.  There are TONS of non-PKing muds out there and lots of games people could play where they bash and chat. Anyone want to guess why I play Achaea?  That's right. Because it used to be deadly it used to give me a rush.  DON'T LOSE this guys.  Seriously, 

 Make more options for Conflict on a player to player level, Not just city vs city raids, it's actually quite boring.  As it the SAME thing over and over.  I mean I remember when there wasn't an "arena" and we spared to the DEATH.  That's what I LOVED, The Thrill, so, Congrats on making this yet a better game and with better retention levels, but honestly don't forget what MADE this place great.

Ephram

I was already excited about the lessons. To get curing in the same week... I don't even know, guys. I'm just so happy. 

Ernam

As long as this system remains a simple, novice-oriented system, all will be fine. What I fear is that over time it will become a viable substitute for using a client and coding skills to be a decent combatant. I don't play Achaea because I hate graphics, I play it because combat at its core is a programming and theory challenge (my girlfriend actually refers to Achaea as "the programming game, because that's how I explained to her why I spend hours a day poring over and refining lua scripts).

Tldr: keep this system good enough to get into combat, but bad enough to not be competitive above the intermediate-low combat sphere.

@Iocun and others, keep in mind that there are several free client side curing systems available. Also keep in mind that novices who come up using this system are going to have an even harder time switching over to real combat when and if they decide they wish to do so.


@Rip I was torn between liking, agreeing, and hacking vanilla forums and doing both.

Achilles

Great decision, with all the entertainment options out there very few newcomers will want to invest hours in a game they aren't remotely attached to just so they can do basic functions.  The reduced lesson package announced the other day is another step in the right direction.  It might cannibalize some sales, but really it should serve as a teaser of sort and really get newcomers attached to their characters.  

@Rip - This doesn't change a thing, the pure MUD experience combat wise started to die around the turn of the millennium when automated curing systems started to outpace what the human brain can respond to manually.  Combat has already been dumbed down, or more accurately you can gain a competitive advantage against others by dumbing down (read build a better system) than your peers.  This doesn't necessarily lower the ceiling for most, just raised the floor for Achaean combat as a whole.

Naisar

This is excellent.  There were fascinating aspects to writing intelligent anti-illusion, but that degree of complexity was hugely inappropriate as a requirement to being an even mediocre combatant.  There are downsides, plenty of them, but I think they'll be outweighed.  

Rip

@Achilles, Yes I agree, I am not trying to knock the combat mechanics, or the curing system.

  My question is WHY have any of it if it's all frowned upon.  Really I have played MUDS for like oh 22 years,  I know the copy cats from the originals, Achaea WAS original, but now IRE made 5 Achaeas, and are trying to force this one to change like the newer watered down versions.  

  I don't CARE if this place is as simple as can be, There is a lack of Thrill, no one makes decision with consequences anymore. the players here treat this gem of a realm like Diablo.  Roll again, make a streamed lined Alt and never give to fuck about anyone. It's the sadist thing I ever witnessed.

  All I am suggesting, is this...  IF you are going to make it easier for new players to enjoy the thrill of combat in this game WHY on earth would you then restrict that very action?  What is the point of a curing system and combat orientated skills with no PvP and no PKing, What is the purpose?  

  If you answer raiding or any other such dribble, PLEASE, delete ALL my skills, give me a damn bow and I will snipe whatever you tell me to, SO FUCKING FUN!

Sarapis

Rip, stay on topic please. This thread is here to discuss the new curing system.

Antonius

@Makarios, @Tecton, @Sarapis: I love you all for making this happen, but it feels like it's not close to being where it needs to be if you actually want people using it for competitive PvP against a fair few classes. What exactly is the intention with this? What's the scope for suggesting changes/improvements? This doesn't come close to Svo in a lot of areas right now, the only advantage it has is that it's immune to illusions. I'm not sure if that's actually worth it yet.

Mishgul

Thumbs up. I like free curing systems.

Ernam

@Antonius It was intended to prevent newbies from not being able to participate in combat, not to be the end-all to client-side curing. I think the way it handles illusions is purely due to code limitations.

That's what I hope is the case anyways. I'd love to hear a response on this from the staff, but I have a hunch they're waiting for player feedback before they decide to buff it or leave it as is.

Bronislav

I'm a little apprehensive. By and large, I used illusions to determine if my opponent would be curing for scytherus if I bit with it - and if they weren't, OH THEY WERE GETTING IT AFTER AN ILLUSION-FLAY. And if they were, then...Hey, high-priority illusion.

I'm a little put out - biting speed is cute and all, but unless we get rid of sileris/quicksilver, it's an overall nerf. I've been told often enough that a Serpent who doesn't have an artefact dirk had damn well better learn how to use their illusions, so I remain quietly optimistic that Serpents will get some skills that will get us back to fighting trim.

I'm interested in whether I should hold on to SVO or swap to the server-side curing system, or...What. I've been working on a schizophrenia paper for the past week or so, so I haven't had the time to dig into things.

Bluef

I guess my main question is what seems to be on the mind of most people who regularly use illusions in combat: Serpent got a compensation buff (I guess). Will there by any for shaman/jester? Or Dragon? All three of these classes use illusion in their combat too. I wonder if they were counted in the "10-15" percentile. I'd really like to know how this number was arrived at too.

Also - Someone reminder: When do classleads close for new submissions? It seems like this should have been announced before they opened. 

Antonius

@Ernam: If that were the case (and I certainly hope it isn't) that's only marginally better than having no game supported curing at all. They get a quick taste at the absolute lowest level, but the moment they actually want to fight they'll still have to fall back to one of the previously available options: a publicly available curing system or spending forever building your own.

Antonius

@Bluef: As far as I know they had zero plans to provide server-side curing when classleads were opened, so it wouldn't have been possible to announce it before that. As far as I recall, classleads close on the 18th (next Friday), then we move into the endorse/censure round.

Ernam

It's not going to be possible to create a server-side curing system as complex and customizable as SVO. That's a reality that you'll have to accept. Furthermore, there is a massive disadvantage inherent in any system that is completely identical across the player base.

For these two reasons, client side curing will -always- be the answer for any truly competitive PVP. Your argument that people will eventually have to switch to a client side system (which I repeat, is easily attainable for free) is inevitable, and using this system as a crutch is only going to make that switch more difficult, as many midbie fighters will now have to learn not only a new system, but in all likelihood, will simultaneously have to learn mudlet and lua for the first time, instead of having already learned the basics by that point.

I think this change will definitely achieve its goal of getting new players more interested earlier on, but it's also going to make things harder on them later on when they decide to stop using the inevitably "budget" server curing system.

Achilles

and look at @Makarios showing off his overpowered Forum Artefact

Bluef

Antonius said:

@Bluef: As far as I know they had zero plans to provide server-side curing when classleads were opened, so it wouldn't have been possible to announce it before that. As far as I recall, classleads close on the 18th (next Friday), then we move into the endorce/censure round.

@Antonious - Server-side curing suddenly came up as an viable idea and was coded and then fully implemented in the last 10 days after classleads opened?

Well, color me impressed.

Anyway, I just hope it's recognized that shamans, jester and dragon all used illusions as an integral part of their combat strategies too. 

Antonius

Well, what you have to remember is that Makarios is a total badass when it comes to coding. Also helps when you can cut out a lot of the work involved with building a client based system like tracking balances and afflictions, handling illusions, getting all of the affliction lines, etc.

Kaie

I like the idea of server-side curing because being new sucks, and being truly new really sucks. So something like that would be a tremendous burden lifted for new players. However, I don't know that I believe only 33% success rate is right. How do you even guage that?  The percentage of times one illusion works, or the amount of times people manage to do one successfully. Cause from where i'm standing, I've seen people go down to illusions quite often myself included.

Also, I see that you've given serpents increased speed to makeup for this, but serpents weren't the only ones capitalizing on illusions. This kind of really poses a problem to Jester as well as illusions were a pretty big part of it. Are all of the classes that utilized illusions being guaged and compensated as well?

While I"m asking questions, why are classleads set up the way they are? It seems that each class should be represented by a member of that class who sits on on things and that other members can communicate with to help make informed decisions. It would also keep the community in the loop. Otherwise, it seems like a bunch of misguided whining and biased views.

Dunn

That's what classleads were before. It was a shit system.

Ernam

You could easily implement standardized illusions, in addition to freely typed illusion lines. Hard-coded bite/doublestab lines at the very least would be very easy to code in, and could "fool" server queueing as god (and clementius) intended.

Also, I can't wait to see how server side queuing pans out with things like salve curing, as right now things like heartseed, axk, Disembowel, and rising star are all essentially either 100% unstoppable or 100% guaranteed, depending on how server queuing handles priorities. From my initial playing it looks very easy to set up a simple guaranteed heartseed setup that can only be prevented by disabling server queuing and manually taking over.

Rip

Sarapis said:

Rip, stay on topic please. This thread is here to discuss the new curing system.

  Sorry @Sarapis, my point is, NEW CURING SYSTEM vs. old view on PKing...the old view on PKing as I see was to STOP the new players being creamed in ten seconds, and I completely agree, I think this is great, I hate the way illusions worked, always have, felt like a cheater, and that is how it's been viewed for nearly 2 decades and I can't STAND having to use a third party curing system to enjoy your wonderful realm.  I am happy and excited.

(Removed all the off-topic parts of the post. This is a thread about the curing system, not about your feelings on PK.)

Jacen

Good change. The illusion nerf is an unfortunate side effect of making the game more available to the newblets, which Sarapis has been very clear is their primary focus in development right now. 

re: illusions nerfing classes:

Not really sure why people freak out so much about these things. I mean, I can see the point of people opposing the removal of the creative potential of illusions, sure. But Tecton and Co. aren't going to purposefully nerf a class into utter oblivion. If classes are struggling to be effective with their removal, it will be addressed. We've got classleads going currently, ACC is probably discussing it right now, and forums are always available, so just calm your shit, figure out what the nerf removes from your class, and make a clear argument as to why that portion of your class needs to get buffed back.

Antonius

Agreed with @Dunn. The previous system was on the whole pretty awful. A lot of ideas raised in the current system may not ever get implemented but at least they're seeing the light of day.

Bluef

Jacen said:

Good change. The illusion nerf is an unfortunate side effect of making the game more available to the newblets, which Sarapis has been very clear is their primary focus in development right now. 

re: illusions nerfing classes:

Not really sure why people freak out so much about these things. I mean, I can see the point of people opposing the removal of the creative potential of illusions, sure. But Tecton and Co. aren't going to purposefully nerf a class into utter oblivion. If classes are struggling to be effective with their removal, it will be addressed. We've got classleads going currently, ACC is probably discussing it right now, and forums are always available, so just calm your shit, figure out what the nerf removes from your class, and make a clear argument as to why that portion of your class needs to get buffed back.

But why does the argument need to be made at all? Why are things shoveled down a pipeline of implementation at such a rate that such things aren't considered beforehand? Faster is not necessarily better quality-wise as far as the gaming experience goes.

Personally, I really do not understand the desire to involve newcomers in combat. Are there really that many newbies itching to have their blood shed? I seem to remember a post by someone (@Adioro, I think) in another thread who was frustrated as hell because he couldn't get involved in it right away city-wise. The mixed messages here confound me.

To me, all this and the lesson packages seem like are just another alt-promotion. It just got easier to make a new character, have them trans out at least one full ability and a portion of the second, and then get third class ability transed by leveling up in a week. We don't even have to worry about shelling out cash for SVO anymore. 

Kaie

Oh, it was slow or something. Hmm, well the only issue I really have about the current system is, I don't think it's really representing each of the classes. I"ve seen the peels change cried over for like 3 years and it just recently got put in. Also, hocuspocus' change.. and a few others. Things that were seriously stupid took forever to fix. I get the feeling that if your class isn't popular it's not getting fixed because unless you play it yourself, you can't really know why something works on paper but not in practice.

Anyways, @Rip I wish that would happen. I HATE feeling like I have to rp myself as peewee herman or some shit because god forbid i hurt some one's feelings and get issued.. cause i'd probably lose it on something. I don't go to open-pk places because it's issuable, which seems pretty damn stupid since you get a HUGE warning when you do. It's like the kiddy-gloves are strapped on with bubble wrap here. Can't kill them, can't be rude, can't make any comments that could in some way, shape, or form be construed as sexual, harassing, or "homophobic". The catering to babies has to stop, it is killing the game entirely. No one wants to play a game where their "RP" is severely limited by the many many many overly sensitive people's feelings. While I am all about making the game newb friendly and harassment/discrimination free, I'm not happy with how it's been handled. So far, we've got watered down skills, overly protective pk rules get abused frequently and a HUGE "Issue" Button for people to slam their hand down like it's fcking jeopardy when their feelings get upset.

Jacen

Because the admins have ultimate control over the game. They decided that the immediate release of a server-side curing system was more important than waiting for the forums/classleads/ACC to address the (five?) classes and the artefact that lost an ability. Yes, you are getting the raw end of a deal, in that respect, but you just have to deal with what the boss hands you and then make your response. I don't think anyone would argue that illusions have lost most of their effectiveness since implementation due to modern curing systems, and thus the admin probably felt that it wouldn't be a massive nerf, nor incredibly hard to buff back with new/repurposed abilities. You lost the ability to illusion. That's where you are right now. Make your case as to why you shouldn't have to live without its benefits.

Achimrst

I'm not reading all this crap but the day I decide to build my compound in Minecraft on my server with a bunch of friendly people I can actually have an actual conversation with. Achaea gets a HTML5 Curing system, I effing love you guys TY!!!!