Curing

Jovolo

Cool 

Iocun

First of all: I think this is a good and needed change. PvP being so client-side system reliant is a very real problem. PK does need more accessibility. That we now have server-side curing doesn't surprise me at all. It is a logical and sensible development that was bound to happen, and that's great! I really hope that this server-side curing can prove to be a viable alternative to client-side scripts in the long term.

I am also not in the least surprised that this results in a nerf to illusioning. This, too, was bound to happen. Illusions, as they are, simply cannot be preserved in their function without making all kinds of important new developments impossible.

That being said, I strongly disagree with those who say "well, illusions didn't work anyways" or "some skills like feints and faster afflicting are going to be way cooler than illusions anyways". No. While I understand and accept why, in the long term, illusions are bound to become less and less viable, that still doesn't mean that it isn't a loss. Illusions are an amazing thing in their openness and versatility and no kind of "feint system" or "increased bite speed" etc. can make up for that. They can certainly make up for that when it comes to serpent effectiveness, but not when it comes to creative potential. In other words: I'm not in the least worried that serpents will be nerfed as a result of this, but simply that Achaea's combat environment becomes more and more restricted and predictable. The IRE games that did away with serpent illusioning did lose something very valuable there.

As I said though: I'm not saying that this shouldn't have happened. It's good that it happened. But it still comes at a very real cost (like many other good things).

Strata

Any class that relied heavily on illusions is now soon to be truly cookie-cutter. I kind of feel like I should just trade in all my stuff and go monk or runie now. And just mash 1 key until opponent is dead. Yaaaaaay fun.

Nim

@Iocun: Hopefully, other avenues for creativity in combat will open up as a result of this one closing, then!

One can hope and dream, anyway!

Kafziel

How do you get guaranteed sensi bites with no illusions and randomised dcurse??

Strata

Kafziel said:

How do you get guaranteed sensi bites with no illusions and randomised dcurse??

How do you benefit from faster bite speeds if you can't illusion/flay sileris to keep it down longer than 2-3 bites?

Jovolo

Didn't know dcurse was changed to be randomised, wha? #nodragon4life

Well naturally that makes it harder.

Antonius

Dragoncurse isn't randomised if you specify a delayed affliction. Not sure what @Kafziel is talking about, maybe he'll explain.

Dunn

...randomized?

dragoncurse Exelethril sensitivity 3 will give you sensi if you're undeaf after 3 seconds. Not random.

Terra

Strata said:

Kafziel said:

How do you get guaranteed sensi bites with no illusions and randomised dcurse??

How do you benefit from faster bite speeds if you can't illusion/flay sileris to keep it down longer than 2-3 bites?

Flay illusion is a pretty good example of an important illusion that worked pretty well pretty often. Hopefully there'll be other changes to make bites easier to use (see: biting through sileris with everything but camus!) to make up for that.

Dunn

Brought up the biting through sileris for all but camus when this was being tested. A chemical compound in the berry coating nullifies the camus venom. Ez.

Iocun

Strata said:

Any class that relied heavily on illusions is now soon to be truly cookie-cutter. I kind of feel like I should just trade in all my stuff and go monk or runie now. And just mash 1 key until opponent is dead. Yaaaaaay fun.

Well, "cookie-cutter" is an exaggeration. Apostates, for instance, aren't exactly "mash 1 key until opponent is dead". But it's certainly a loss in versatility and makes some classes less exciting.

Nim said:

@Iocun: Hopefully, other avenues for creativity in combat will open up as a result of this one closing, then! One can hope and dream, anyway!

Perhaps, but in the end all kinds of abilities that are very open and allow for much creativity are potentially troublesome when it comes to new game developments that serve to make it more accessible and convenient. It lies in the nature of open-ended abilities that they are used in ways the coders didn't anticipate, which makes them hard to balance, potentially griefy, and potentially buggy. It is thus not surprising that the more "developed" a game becomes, the more the various abilities become constrained and clear-cut.

Kafziel

About a month ago I noticed gare and curse were randomised about half a second. Either I'm bugged or its changed. Not at home so can't test but curse paralysis 4/shatter a few times and see if they still hit on/near the same prompt. A little while ago it changed from always on the dot to +/- half a sec or so for me

Dunn

I noticed the gare randomisation, but not the dcurse one. Will have to test.

I know @Makarios worked on some backend changes with delayed skills like that. Any word, Mak?

Strata

Terra said:

Strata said:

Kafziel said:

How do you get guaranteed sensi bites with no illusions and randomised dcurse??

How do you benefit from faster bite speeds if you can't illusion/flay sileris to keep it down longer than 2-3 bites?

Flay illusion is a pretty good example of an important illusion that worked pretty well pretty often. Hopefully there'll be other changes to make bites easier to use (see: biting through sileris with everything but camus!) to make up for that.

That illusion is an example of one that has and will very likely always work regardless of how advanced client side curing becomes. With server side curing, that illusion no longer works because the server knows if you truly have

the defence up or not. I use this illusion in every fight to keep sileris down as much as possible. Not so I can get more bites - but most often so I can get bites in at crucial times without having to waste time flaying sileris.

There are other examples of illusions that present unique challenges for client side curing simply because the systems can't easily test if they're real or not. I really think the garden listened to the "find a system breaking illusion, abuse it, it gets patched, find another system breaking illusion..." crowd too much. @Iocun has never been of that mindset and I can probably say I haven't been of that mindset since overcoming the first few months of learning serpent.

It's about creativity, as he said. If anything, "nerfing" illusions takes away one of the most interesting things about combat and was easily over 1/2 of the reason I went with serpent. Hopefully the classleads to come will provide an adequate replacement for this huge loss.

The future of Achaea everyone:

"I am a serpent. I can BITE."

"I am a monk. I can BREAK BACK."

"I am a priest. I can SMITE."

"I am a runie. I can RAZE SLASH."

That wasn't meant to rhyme... But this is our future, ladies and gentlement! Say goodbye to complexity and uniqueness. The only thing that will differ is the lines you see on your screen.

Iocun

Technically this is already the case! The entire game is about the lines we see on our screens and nothing else :P

Unless you're Tanris.

Dunn

Oh, stop. The cynical drama show predicting a stormy future of Achaea doesn't help anyone. You haven't even test anything.

Jovolo

Lmao what an exaggeration.

Strata

Dunn said:

Oh, stop. The cynical drama show predicting a stormy future of Achaea doesn't help anyone. You haven't even test anything.

I only did it because I love how much you like the poetry from the Cyrene babies on public news boards :P

Nim

Strata said:

Dunn said:

Oh, stop. The cynical drama show predicting a stormy future of Achaea doesn't help anyone. You haven't even test anything.

I only did it because I love how much you like the poetry from the Cyrene babies on public news boards :P

I'm the only Cyrenian who posted poetry in public, yo.

Strata

Jovolo said:

Lmao what an exaggeration.

You haven't noticed I'm one of those doomsday prophets yet?! Sheesh Jovolo. Pay attention.

Jovolo

Strata, Devourer of Light (male Atavian).

:O Darkwalker!

Sybell

Strata said:

That wasn't meant to rhyme... But this is our future, ladies and gentlement! Say goodbye to complexity and uniqueness. The only thing that will differ is the lines you see on your screen.

While I am no way close to being a combatant in Achaea, I could draw from my experience in Imperian. Yes, server-side curing did close up certain avenues of combat (illusions, aeon/retardation), but combat was revamped (is being revamped) and new ways were presented, which filled up the 'loss' of the complexity provided by illusions/aeon/retardation.

I'm excited to see what the Achaea team has planned for the future of combat.

Strata

I just hope it's done right is all. One of the biggest things that makes Achaea so unique (and I know many of you non-artied peasants will disagree with this) is that it is one of the very few games out there where the majority of your success in the game comes from your ability to be diplomatic and work with others to solve complex problems in many aspects - and as far as combat goes, your skill and ingenuity as a player. When the in-game abilities move further toward the clear-cut I think it becomes less about player skill and more about character abilities and artefacts.

Rip

  Greetings everyone,

PLEASE, Get rid of this non-PK bullshit and let's get this place bloody again!

 

  Seems to me EVERYONE should be fine right out of the gate to fight and survive now, no need to wait around for 2 years for new players to mature, learn to code, or even wonder what is going on.  I am seriously in awe that you guys have taken such a leap and literally taken away everyone's complaints.

  And I am in shock it only took 17 years to majorly change illusions, I expect MAJOR improvements when it comes to people whining every second about being murdered, you ALL have no excuses now.

  Further more, I think High Ranking Denizens should take out Contracts on adventures that hunt and kill them repeatedly, Sorry folks, hunting is murdering if your killing things that can talk, walk, have babies and otherwise cry out, "Please don't kill me." You should be hunted yourself.  Thoughts?

  I agree "system-breaking via illusions" is not my idea of a good fight, in fact I hated the idea when we first invented it in 1996 ish.  Sadly, this sort of generic curing system is great for new adventure's but it seriously ruined my ideas of Achaea's learning curve and deeper appeal.  Frankly I like things that are hard, difficult to master and take some skill.  Tic Tac Toe is not my idea of fun,  

  So, now that everyone is a well rounded combatant  I say, Away with the OOC non-PKing stuff, this is murder folks, you are not a PLAYER, get it?  There is no "Player Killing" in Achaea this idea is RUINING the Role of combat, and it also suggests that conflict and murder interaction is an OOC offense, hence the quick threat to Issue and complain via OOC's methods.  I mean I am wondering why we even have skills for the purpose of killing one another.

  Thank you @Sarapis and @Tecton for this incredible update, changes everything about Achaea, Just today I met someone from "lusty?" trying Achaea for the first time due to the lesson package you added.  Very nice.  Good thing they can cure ASAP, no need to check those confusing help cure lists, and they can avoid those boring learning experiences about how to survive.

 KILL THEM ALL!  It is about time Achaea got it's balls back!  That's what we (I) loved about this place.

  Let's make this place PK friendly, how do we do that, I have a shit ton of cool skills all dusty due to your babying the player base, let's make it FUN again!  Who is with me?  Come on Shaitan I KNOW your in there somewhere.

Edited: for grammar correction 

Ernam

The amount that I hate this change will depend on the quality of the curing itself, although when I read this, my instinct was to wish that I could unspend every minute and dollar I've put into Achaea.

The reason for this is because I have long noticed a trend from IRE of dumbing the game down, not just for newbies, but for everyone. This change, regardless of the quality of the curing system or how much it is used, shows that IRE wants to be less like a fine restaurant, and more like a McDonald's. Not because McDonald's is better, simply because it is more profitable.

One of my favorite parts about Achaea is that each of the classes has a level of difficulty, some being far easier than others (sylvan, monk). Other classes require an artists touch, serpent being the epitome of this. You literally have to spend years learning every possible detail about not just combat, but curing systems, AIs, and combat psychology, to ever hope to beat an above-average curing system. I saw a huge chunk of this go away this morning as I read Tecton's post, and I saw the trend of turning Achaea into pre-processed twice frozen beef-flavored meat cookies take a big leap forward.

I get what @Iocun is saying, and I agree to an extent, but I have to say, if I wanted to play WoW, I'd at WoW. Please stop trying to make Achaea into it. I love Achaea because it is complex, and takes years to become a good player. Stop taking away the one thing I love most about the game: its complexity.

Nim

Why do people keep saying WoW is dumbed down? There's a ridiculous amount of theorycraft that goes into WoW - most people just don't have to do it because it's already been done (much like most people don't have to program their own system because SVO exists).

Alexandre

This is a great change not only for the current playerbase of Achaea, but also for the new players that join in the future. As far as restricting PK less... Not so sure about that.

Edoren

I think this is going to be a great change for newer players. I've always felt it was a little ridiculous to expect people to know how to code to survive in combat right from the beginning. Vadimus/etc are probably the only reason anyone who didn't know how to code complex curing systems stuck around. With integrating this, it makes it so that people are better able to handle themselves and less prone to worry about being combat proficient.

Trilliana

Nim said:

Why do people keep saying WoW is dumbed down? There's a ridiculous amount of theorycraft that goes into WoW - most people just don't have to do it because it's already been done (much like most people don't have to program their own system because SVO exists).

Because WoW went from having this

to having this


Little to no customization, little to no way to min-max (which was so OP that it caused me headaches... and I can't count how many times I'd mess up fiddling with my talent trees as a druid)


But to the system, I like it. A lot. There were times that I wouldn't log in when I was pregnant with my son because my entire system was on my desktop where I had no internet, even though I was somewhere that I could log in. I like that it'll also be easier for novices who want to get into fighting but are just terrible at coding or don't know how.