Curing

Siduri

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "Man."

(Eye Nocturnum): You say, "Technically..."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "People are going to bitch for the sake of bitching, regardless of what is changed, and that's just reality. When people are at the winning end of a tactic and it gets changed, shit's all unfair. And when they're at the losing end, shit's all unfair. Since one person has to die, it's always going to be "unfair" somewhere, because nobody wants to ever just say "I lost because they're better than me". It's always a system justification as to why that's the only reason they died. It's just fucking dumb."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "People like her -- and I'm in that boat with her, but my time is spent here differently than hers when i'm around -- spend 2 or 3 hours total on offense and are "done" until a wild hair gets them, because for the most part, combat now is just coding."

(Eye Nocturnum): Jinsun says, "I just hate 95% of Achaea these days."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "To pretend that whole 3 hours was somehow torn from you is silly, when you're spending longer bitching about what 

you perceive to have lost."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "RANT FOR A COMBINED TOTAL OF 5 HOURS ABOUT LOSING SYSTEM IT TOOK 3 HOURS TO CREATE."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "^ Logic."

(Eye Nocturnum): Epiphany says, "Truefax."

Sybell

For those interested, here is what the Imperian playerbase and administration have said when they released their server-side autocuring:
http://forums.imperian.com/discussion/88/autocuring-a-basic-healing-system/p1

A quote to highlight in that discussion:

I'll just say that an important factor for me is that we're running a game here, not a coding competition. If something is crucial to be able to fully participate in the game (and competent curing arguably falls into this category), it should be provided by the game, rather than rely on third-party offerings. Furthermore, combat should be a competition between offensive capabilities of players, not between the specifics of their curing (although that will always play at least some role).

Speaking of Aetolia's version, I looked and theirs is running on 0.5s ticks these days, not 3s ones.

Amanu

Not sure how much is unfair or bad but I think this cure system going to be awesome since I often use my smartphone on breaks and the idea that it keeps going during a d/c just raises the bar. I'll certainly make use of it on my tablet(running off smartphone's hotspot) while I wait for internet at the new home.

Vadimuses

Some interesting observations - besides not making the server-side curing suspectible to curing illusions, it's also not suspectible to bleeding illusions (remember the old 'you bleed for a billion hp' trick?), which means it has the luxury of just sending the exact amount of clot commands needed. It also knows every time exactly which command failed stupidity, and it does it again asap, another advantage client-side systems aren't given. It doesn't have the option of doubledo though if you wanted to have that on.

Siduri

I'll use the server-side curing, that's sure. SVO remains an important part of my every scripts, and I still urge everyone to have a serious look at it.

Amanu

Siduri said:

I'll use the server-side curing, that's sure. SVO remains an important part of my every scripts, and I still urge everyone to have a serious look at it.

Agreed. I'll still use SVO since @Vadimuses‌ seems to be getting these ideas together before Achaea makes their version on server side though one trumps the other in some way.

Iocun

Sybell said:

Furthermore, combat should be a competition between offensive capabilities of players, not between the specifics of their curing (although that will always play at least some role).

I don't quite agree with this. Defence is as much part of combat as offence and can be an interesting challenge in itself. Working on "the specifics of ones curing" is a perfectly valid and fun part of combat and not any more or less "elitist" than working on the specifics of ones offence. If combat in Achaea was balanced in a way to make automated offence a quasi-requirement, this would be just as much of an issue.

This isn't really about offence vs curing, but simply about dealing with things that are relevant to the game within the game. It's thus comparable with other such changes we've seen in the past, such as adding in-game maps and landmarks to replace the need for third party maps, adding projects/the crimes system/etc. to make stuff like yahoo groups for ministry organisation less important, increasing in-game help resources to replace the need for help from various websites, and so on.

Strata

Nemutaur said:

I think in the end serpents will switch to trying to fool the client side affliction tracking to get us to switch priorities wrongly. Or actually illusioning other stuff like them shielding a lot so people who track that in their offense get boned. There will still be room for illusions, but if serpents are getting the tradeskill rework that people are hoping for with more sneakyness then illusions will not be playing a huge role in their offense anyway.

We're getting a huge buff. Our bow accuracy is increasing and is being moved into a new skill called Archery. All the subterfuge skills are being converted into a new skillset called PeepingTom, so we can keep an eye on those mudsexers even more closely. Dstab? what's that? Deleted.

Vadimuses

Svo now integrates with the server-side curing, just a day after it's out. See here for details and give it a go!

Kaie

Okay, I'm just gonna come out and say this. Everyone posting how it's a great change and illusions were useless, yet are unaffected by either not playing a class that uses them, or simply just didn't use them, STFU. Your input is not beneficial and speaking simply to speak creates noise which hampers the message trying to be conveyed by those who did.

Now, that being said. I don't think discussing it anywhere with a select group is a great idea. You get the opinion of a handful of players, not the opinion of the majority. I think if you want to make a significant change to a system, it's  best to let everyone know about it and offer some kind of feedback. Customers are not your enemy, they want you to succeed as much as you want to succeed. This is a big change for more than serpent, I can't speak for other classes since my experience is with Serpent and Jester. The impact is obvious on Serpent, less obvious on Jester apparently. However, breaking things down to a very general since, Jester as a class had two options.. lean on the puppetry crutch which is very time consuming and risky against classes that can prep limbs for an insta faster than you can fashion enough times or using illusions to throw the opponents defense into disarray.

I'm not completely against this idea. I think illusions were becoming more and more useless as curing systems advanced. Many things failed and those that didn't often simply exploited a flaw that would be patched later. It was just a matter of time before they were dead. However, I am concerned and simply want reassured that we are going to adjust the classes that used it extensively to compensate. Illusions played a big role for Jester because it cannot acquire a true lock, it's too slow to overwhelm with afflictions outright and sticking aeon on people with fitness/shrugging required illusions. Even getting salve stacks going was easier done on illusions due to costs of actual breaks and stuff. So, there's a lot of slack left by this. My concern is that we'll hear the infamous "It's in the works." or "It's being looked into." again. Last time I heard this, it took 3 irl years to bring about like 5 changes that were not life altering the biggest being suicide mice, was utterly disappointing. It all has potential to be a great change, so long as appropriate adjustments are made.

@Aktillum Hocuspocus could be devastating when used correctly, but life vision and anti-illusion made using it effectively difficult to pull off and time consuming to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Epiphany

Truthfully, I am really having a hard time stomaching the amount of sheer bitching that everyone is doing as if they are entitled to the game remaining a specific way because -stomps feet- I WANT IT THAT WAY! I cannot think of the last time that throwing a fucking temper tantrum in real life about life's injustices did anybody any good, why is it such a common occurrence here? Instead of flailing around at the absurdity of how unfair the situation is, just stop supporting the game and don't play. If you're not going to STOP PLAYING over the change, then BITCHING is just adding to one of the numerous reasons that the game is going to shit. If you aren't going to come up with a constructive idea to solve the issue that you perceive, that actually is beneficial to the game, all you are doing is making it harder to actually address the issues.

The reality of the situation is that MOST PEOPLE did not make their own system, they BOUGHT their system. This also meant that most people were just cookie cutters of somebody else who was actually unique and creative, which means that everyone was doing the same exact thing over and over. When that type of thing happens, of course the administration is going to address it. Think of your own unique ways that are fucking OP, and don't take everyone elses tactics when those tactics kill you, and shit like this wouldn't even have been such a problem to begin with. 

@Vadimuses Kudos, man. You have probably made an obscene amount of money, and you are one of the people who actually do have a valid reason to voice complaints, but you are one of the people who seem to be siding with the admistration and pointing out the good things in the system, even though it directly affects you. That's what we need more of. Then maybe changes could be made for the better, instead of perpetually addressing the same dead horse that everyone wants to kick.

@Kaie Shit takes 3 RL years to make changes to anything because every change results in 17 days and 42 pages of incessent bitching. 

Kuy

Came back to this thread to read the posts from those well-entrenched in the combat scene.

Found too many abuse flags for me to want to come back.

Strata

@Epiphany had a point though. I'm dormant until all the classleads go through. Then I'll come back and see what the damage is. The only thing these changes have done is caused me to decide to take a break for a while. I've always been somewhat of a pro-serpent extremist but if combat is eventually going to end as a system where you choose your class/character solely on superficial aspects like race/flair/style/whatever - and the underlying mechanics are all the same, I'm not sure I'll continue to be involved in PvP. This is a very radical/extreme/alarmist standpoint to have simply because of some illusion nerfs and introduction of server-side curing - but I feel that's where we are all headed.

I think in the near future (within a few years), the only difference between playing a monk vs. a serpent will be your character descriptions. If that's the only way IRE can make more money and retain players, then that's how it's going to be. It sucks, but that's what it is.

Kaie

@Epiphany I'm glad that you came out of that crack haze enough to feel anything at all, even if it is disgust.

First, you've missed the point of my post in your eagerness to make an attempt at some clever comment. I view this as a chance to get away from it, but simply expressed my concern as to whether or not classes other than serpent that were affected would be adjusted to compensate where illusions would have played a role. 3 irl years is a long ass time and for something that directly affects it, it's too long. Besides, isn't the point of this thread to express concerns?

Second, not everyone played for free. Some people have invested hundreds and thousands into the game via credit purchases and what not. That makes them a customer and as such, it is perfectly normal for them to be concerned about things they invested in. So, back off and stop trying to make people feel shitty because they don't understand or agree with what's happening to their investment.

Epiphany

I had a TV about 6 years ago that wasn't HD. When they made the change to HD, I had the option to adapt and buy something that made my old TV work with the new change, I could buy a new HD TV, or I could cancel my subscription to cable. As a customer, I was given options. And as a business, they have the right to adapt their business in an attempt to profit. That is, after all, why they have a business. That isn't an attempt at being clever, it's logic. You, as a consumer, at the end of the day, have the right to complain to management and take it up the chain. And at the end of the day, they have the right to give no fucks at all about you.

And for the record, let your guilty conscious know that I wasn't talking about you in my first two statements, I was making a blanket statement. I was only directly referring to you about the part I tagged on you, which was a response to your statement, not a fingerpoint at you. But hey, that's on you if you want to take ownership.

Hasar

Question: Will Masks of lifevision be able to be returned @full price?

I don't own one, but am curious.

Strata

Hasar said:

Question: Will Masks of lifevision be able to be returned @full price?

I don't own one, but am curious.

That question was already asked and the answer was no. Pretty sure it will be the same case when veils are deleted.

Karai

Strata said:

Hasar said:

Question: Will Masks of lifevision be able to be returned @full price?

I don't own one, but am curious.

That question was already asked and the answer was no. Pretty sure it will be the same case when veils are deleted.

Hopefully before I get the 1100 cr left for one, so I won't be both a self-loathing veil-user and broke. Just one or the other.

Kyrton

Right now I cannot get mudlet on my system because I am having some weird error with yum in fedora so I can't download the dependencies to build it.  Anyhow, personal problems aside this curing system is awesome until I can get a better one installed on my computer in mudlet.  Thanks and good job guys!

Nemutaur

Already Idea'd it but I'll mention it here as well. We need a way to get server side curing to ignore curing certain afflictions, such as the elemental disruptions if you have spirit disrupt or restoration breaks for vivi curing.

Can't make the full switch to the server side curing until that is in, but already working on converting my system in a new mudlet profile.

Cynlael

Sybell said:

I'll just say that an important factor for me is that we're running a game here, not a coding competition. If something is crucial to be able to fully participate in the game (and competent curing arguably falls into this category), it should be provided by the game, rather than rely on third-party offerings. Furthermore, combat should be a competition between offensive capabilities of players, not between the specifics of their curing (although that will always play at least some role).

Speaking of Aetolia's version, I looked and theirs is running on 0.5s ticks these days, not 3s ones.

May I introduce you to Iluv's infamous -1 button- script that he spent a few hours making. Has one for each of the 3-4 classes he has. (Yes, hold down F1 and win. Literally.)

http://pastebin.com/qrCaiFcM

Nim

I want to make a full fledged Achaea AI. PvP, bashing, crafting, roleplaying, all automated, with the only human-sourced control being coding it. >_>

Aerek

You can't get banned for automation as long as it can pass a Turing test. Pretty sure that's in the rules.

Achimrst

Nim said:

I want to make a full fledged Achaea AI. PvP, bashing, crafting, roleplaying, all automated, with the only human-sourced control being coding it. >_>

This could make Hashan Relevant and make Cyrene PK overlords, do it @Nim fulfill @Antonius' prophecy.

The Prophecy, as recorded from Multiclass update discussion:

City novicehood and House overhaul for the remaining five cities (in about 8 months) 
Daeir/Seftin/Jovolo all changing classes 30 times over
Lots of threads about cats
@Bonko joins Eleusis
More cat threads
Bonko leaves Eleusis
Tradeskill split ------
Bonko is issued 400 more times for things that aren't against the rules
Classleads happening again
More talisman promotions
Targossas is sunk, citizens flock to whatever city they happen to 'not be aligned with' at the time
**Hashan becomes truly relevant**
**Cyrene becomes the PK overlords**
   ------- changes to affected classes 
Bonko joins Mhaldor again
More cat threads
New class: Jovolo/Seftin/Daeir all die from over-elation at having ANOTHER option they have to choose from
Class is nerfed into the ground
Bonko quit Mhaldor for like the 50th time
More classleads that make monks more OP
Multiclass I have no expectation of seeing multiclass this year or the year after, unless Silas becomes Jimmy Neutron or something.

In Nim we trust.

Nim

Woah, @Achimrst. I know I'm pretty bold in my efforts to make Cyrene into the sovereign rulers of the world through bloody warfare and militaristic supremacy, but making Hashan relevant? I'm not that good. :c

Tarkanian

^ damn it, that made me laugh hard.

Cynlael

Nim said:

Woah, @Achimrst. I know I'm pretty bold in my efforts to make Cyrene into the sovereign rulers of the world through bloody warfare and militaristic supremacy, but making Hashan relevant? I'm not that good. :c

If you can do something as overwhelmingly difficult as making Cyrene PK overlords, I think you can make Hashan relevant.

Aktillum

@Kaie There was a point a couple years ago when I was really into 1v1 PK and created a ton of illusions, ways to ignore my own HocusPocus, bomb+aeon timers and other nifty little things. Then I lost my entire system. I lack the motivation to re-create it all. Also as others pointed out, illusions were getting a lot more difficult to use because of SVO patches and all its various 'checks'. 

I'm happy for this change because hopefully PK will be exciting again when they re-balance everything and I won't have to spend countless hours figuring out what illusions work on some people and which don't. Kudos if you have the patience / motivation, but really it felt like more time is spent developing a system of illusions and going back to the drawing board when Vadi patches. 

Nothing against @Vadimuses cause SVO is awesome but I remember taking a look through all the triggers and seeing anti-illusion for specific players, like a trigger called "Sohl isn't a Shaman". Which means you can work really hard on coming up with nifty illusions, but Vadi will patch it for everyone next update. So illusions are pretty much an outdated concept, and while you can still use them, it's just better for the game to move away from forcing people to become expert coders to participate in 1v1 PK.

Honestly I think Achaea should be more like League of Legends. Everyone gets 4 attacks that scale with artefacts, and we all dog-pile on Mhaldor's Nexus. loljk

Bambizlo

I may be in the minority here, but despite what statistics may show, illusions bring quite a bit of enjoyment to the game that is otherwise lost in its absence. It offers, by far, the most innovative customization for both offense and defense that isn't nearly comparable with any other ability, skillset, or artifact and thus also had the highest skillcap (assuming said illusions weren't just poached from someone else's hard work) in coming up with both worthwhile illusions and means to counter them. For that reason alone, it's understandable why statistically-speaking, the efficiency of illusions appears to be deceptively low (in the 15% efficacy range mentioned).

By removing illusions you're effectively eliminating a whole realm of skilled play and turning away competitive, tactical players.

While it's understandable that server-side curing coding is a world and a half easier if illusions could be considered, please consider slowing down (by 2x or more) the response time of server-side curing so that there would always be an advantage in using client-side systems that are susceptible to illusions. Don't remove illusions altogether.

Nemutaur

Bambizlo said:

While it's understandable that server-side curing coding is a world and a half easier if illusions could be considered, please consider slowing down (by 2x or more) the response time of server-side curing so that there would always be an advantage in using client-side systems that are susceptible to illusions. Don't remove illusions altogether.

While half of the goal here is to ease in new players into combat by giving them a system the other half is actually giving people with non-american pings a better chance at curing. So I highly doubt they'll be slowing down server side curing at all.