Curing

Bluef

Jarrod said: It was stated weeks ago in another thread that illusions were being phased out of combat, and classes losing them would gain actual effective skills to make up for it. Quit complaining that an RNG thing that you never used optimally is being replaced with skills that don't have to beat a system because they actually have effects.

So, this was in the works before classleads then? Still confused about why they were opened and then it was rolled out mid-period. It would seem like a development schedule for a game like Achaea would take into account the need to introduce things like this pre-classleads. Yes, I get that we all now have a few more chances to classlead things, but we have less time to test and play around with the mechanics in order to do that fruitfully now. 

I understand that Achaea has done this to compete with client-side curing systems like SVO and to supposedly make combat more accessible to lower levels. Is it easier than installing Mudlet, the mapper, and purchasing SVO - probably for a brand new player. But honestly - if I was a true newcomer, the whole thing would still be daunting, especially all this talk of mystical "priorities."

When I think back to Bluef at lower levels, I know this server-side curing system would just have confused and frustrated the hell out of me (Probably moreso than just trying to figure out how to defend against illusions). So let's at least be honest about the fact that combat defenses that aren't "stock" are not actually any more accessible to newcomers than they were before - apart from them not having to deal with illusions. But it is far more easier for newcomers to jump on the Achaean client from the website and immediately start to heal themselves in general now. 

I think the only class who has gained anything to make up for this is serpents so far. I'm not sure how effective it is compared to what they had before because I've really not tested the changes to biting much yet tbh. I'm still hoping they address the need for something for the other classes that were impacted. Holding breath, fingers crossed. 

Edit: God, I hate these forums and their inability to quote a damn thing properly. Seriously the most annoying thing ever.

Kuy

Decan said:

I still dont agree, and sum up the argument for it like this:

I dont like to pk bash because I have to invest time and effort into setting up a client finding places to bash so the game should do all that for me so I can play better be dragon with as little effort as possible on my side.

I claim false analogy.

Decan

@Cooper I fight only as much as I have to, your right that I dont use PK as a solely defining character trait because PK related items get buffed and nerfed too often any more to justify it for me personally. However I still teach other serpents how to fight and learn how to compete with top tier people when I have to so that I can when I need to.

That said it does effect me as much as effects everyone because illusions are now being almost completely removed for the sake of PK. It wont help people get into combat more than "just to try it" which is where most people either decide to continue with it or discontinue its persuit. I dont think that a less than perfect (as stated by Tecton in the OP) will convince people to take up PK anymore than normal because as Tecton also stated if you still want to compete at the top levels you will probably still use Client side for more control of your own curing. Eventually what will happen is people will complain that the serverside auto cure isnt good enough and it will be made better. This means the only way to win a fight is to afflict faster than someone can actually cure and not so much emphasis will be placed on detailed tactics outside of "do it faster". Either autocuring will be made to prevent people from dying in most 1v1 situations because its faster than afflicting, or it will not do anything to help because it will not cure as efficiently, neither option I think is a good thing

Vadimuses

The interesting thing is that I was taking flak for the supposed fact that people didn't need to learn cures once they had a system. That wasn't the case of course, but now admins can cop that flak, too!

Mediocre people really do come up with the stupidest things to whine about. Those lower know less so they keep quiet, those higher know better. That's what I've learnt over the years.

Decan

Kuy said:

Decan said:

I still dont agree, and sum up the argument for it like this:

I dont like to pk bash because I have to invest time and effort into setting up a client finding places to bash so the game should do all that for me so I can play better be dragon with as little effort as possible on my side.

I claim false analogy.

this analogy could be made for anything in achaea: I dont want to try so make it easier for me. Thats the sum of it, be it boats, bashing, pk, politics, crafting, or anything else for that matter. If you dont see the similarities its because you choose not to

Decan

Vadimuses said:

The interesting thing is that I was taking flak for the supposed fact that people didn't need to learn cures once they had a system. That wasn't the case of course, but now admins can cop that flak, too!

Mediocre people really do come up with the stupidest things to whine about. Those lower know less so they keep quiet, those higher know better. That's what I've learnt over the years.

Ive learnt that hard work and learning new things is what keeps you on that higher level, sadly neither of those things are needed when the game does all the work for you. Course those things were not required to buy your system either, but atleast the option was there on some level for them to improve upon some of the bugs in SVO and its previous incarnations.

Nim

@Decan: You need to learn basic logic. Illusions have yet to be removed, and there are still plenty of valid illusion tactics. SVO has not made anyone immune to dying, even though people can still use it for that very purpose - why would a server-side curing system do that, particularly when its developers are also responsible for balancing combat in general?

Furthermore, while illusioning afflictions introduced a ton of complexity (likely the reason why they just decided to make the server-side curing system ignore illusions altogether), and removing it does mean there's less complexity in PvP, that does not imply that there will be further reduced complexity. If anything, they might choose to reintroduce some of that lost complexity, ideally in more engaging ways than "spend X hours coding."

@Bluef: A lot of people don't understand SVO priorities either, and that doesn't stop them. :P

Alexandre

I'm confused as to why people are still making such extreme assumptions and outpuring more grief about this change. What's done is done, the only step moving forward is to think and suggest ideas that could replace the hole left by illusions being removed for those classes that utilized it.

Decan

Nim said:

@Decan: You need to learn basic logic. Illusions have yet to be removed, and there are still plenty of valid illusion tactics. SVO has not made anyone immune to dying, even though people can still use it for that very purpose - why would a server-side curing system do that, particularly when its developers are also responsible for balancing combat in general?

Furthermore, while illusioning afflictions introduced a ton of complexity (likely the reason why they just decided to make the server-side curing system ignore illusions altogether), and removing it does mean there's less complexity in PvP, that does not imply that there will be further reduced complexity. If anything, they might choose to reintroduce some of that lost complexity, ideally in more engaging ways than "spend X hours coding."

To rely on serverside curing, you have to either agree that it will prevent you from dying, or it wont. So if it will, obviously thats bad for pk, nuff said. If it wont, whats the point? Sure people might spar a few more times than they would have before, but I would truely be astonished if people who never fought, and never intended to, suddenly became immersed in combat because of auto curing when its been admitted by you and even the admin that clientside is ultimately better. There are a ton of people who use SVO or Omni who dont pk, auto curing doesnt change that. Its safe to assume that if you like pk, you will do something to get better at it, if you dont, no amount of automation, be it client side or server side will change your interests. That my friend, is logic. 

Edit: Want more non-comm types to engage in combat, remove XP loss. Then there truly is no reason to avoid participation in it.

Bluef

Cooper said:

Decan why are you complaining about a change that doesn't affect you and helps out new players immensely? You don't fight, never have (at least not to a point where illusions would have mattered). If you can't see how this is going to help retain new players and old ones too the you should just step out of the thread. This is a massively good change.

@Cooper are you the self-appointed decider of who fights enough to get to comment on things related to PK or did Someone Powerful swoop down from the sky after seeing one of your underwear-clad selfies and decree you the forum police officer of all things PK-related?

Yeah, you know the shit just got real when I'm writing to defend @Decan, people. There's no love lost between us, but this is getting stupid. The elitist attitude by those in the ACC is bad enough without people like @Cooper jumping onto forums and deciding who has the right to weigh in on a change that impacts everyone in the game.

Like I've already said, I get why the change was done, I get that more changes may be in the works for classes impacted, but let people have their own opinions of this without accusing them of being less than simply because they aren't as good as you (laughably IMO) perceive yourself to be.

Antonius

The default priorities for server side curing will keep you alive against people who don't know how to use afflictions in a meaningful way and can't simply outdamage you. What it won't do is keep you alive against absolutely everything. If you want to do that then you need to learn about how different abilities work, the strategies your opponent is using, and how to defend against them. The parts of combat that are actually engaging and enjoyable, not the coding required afterwards, in my opinion.

And, obviously, it works the opposite way as well. If you want to kill people who aren't using the default priorities then you'll need to learn how your abilities work, how to account for your opponent's curing in various strategies you use, etc.

Iocun

1. A system doesn't either keep you perfectly save or be useless. No matter if it's client-side or server-side. It simply increases your survivability by a certain degree. Whether you survive in the end still comes down to how good your opponent is, how you use your system (i.e. your priorities etc.), how well you use other defensive actions (shield, web, run, etc.), whether you can force him into a defensive position with your offence, and so on.

2. I don't think there are a ton of people who use Svo/Omni who never PK. There are a ton of people using them who rarely PK. Maybe they only do so in raid defence. Maybe they only do so in the arena. Maybe they only do so while training novices. Maybe they tried it a few times and later found that PK isn't what they like. But even if they don't fight much, fighting is still not entirely out of the question for them, due to having a curing system, and that's what I find important here: to make combat something that doesn't first require you to decide whether you're a "fully fledged PKer" or not, but something you can also do somewhat casually.

3. It isn't decided from the get-go whether "you like pk" or not. How can you truly know that without trying it first? And how can you truly try it in Achaea if you have to cure manually against heavy afflicters? A newbie who is forced to "try combat" by curing manually can't get a realistic taste of what combat is like for most of us, so in order to even find out whether he might be interested in PvP, he'd have to get a system first. Server-side curing however makes it very easy for a newbie to give it a quick try and get a reasonably realistic taste of Achaea's PvP system.

Nim

@Decan: Nothing will save you from anything ever. Even @Sarapis's divine fire is beaten by hacking his connection and typing the command(s) required to turn it off. you just aren't top tier until you're willing to rise to this level.

In all seriousness though, SVO won't save you from anything ever, and I'm sure a ton of people complained about that to poor @Vadimuses, but yet it remains absurdly popular amongst everyone not crazy enough to write their own.

Hasar

Close thread pls.

Zii

Decan

@Iocun

People still need a system in most cases to bash to certain higher end levels, that or a ton of macro keys. PK isnt the only thing a system is for, but for the sake of this discussion auto curing isnt going to make the difference between someone who PK's and someone who doesnt, you're a prime example of that. You liked combat but didnt want to do the work to write the system. Then you decided to put forth the effort and now your better off for it. If you were given auto curing at the start, even though its been widely admitted that clientside will ultimately be more of a robust option, you will still have to put forth the effort to write your system or give up PK.

That is the difference between someone who wants to PK and someone who doesnt. Its not whether or not they have a system or autocuring, its whether or not they are interested enough to do it. This was just a sham to get rid of illusions IMHO. Scoff if you like but the points have been made that A) Top tier fighters will have their own system either made themselves or bought auto curing is mostly just for beginners or occasional fighters and C) Non-comms have systems too but dont PK often if at all.

Utianima

Decan said:

If server side customizations are possible as mentioned above, how are afflictions not obsolete? Does this mean we just traded Clientside customization for server side customization? How is that better except to justify a reason to remove illusioning? Seems like more of a "how can server side compete with clientside? I know! Make it immune to illusions, then people will have to use it." Type solution than one that makes the game better. New players still have to put forth similar effort in both cases to be "good" but if this change is meant to take away complexity for new players I don't see the difference. What I do see is an attempt to make a complex game less complex, but I'm iffy on how that is supposed to benefit anyone. What made Achaea better than the rest was the complexity and effort needed to learn and explore.

Put yourself in the position of A) a newbie who don't have the skill and/or time/dedication to create a client side system, or Achaea admins with the challenge of creating a server side system with both the initial and ongoing work of keeping up with all current and new illusions (plus the added meta-conflict of hiding the fact that the server side already knows when you're being illusioned).

A is partly why server side curing was implemented and will make combat more accessible and cheaper (it takes time and money to create a supported system like svo), and B is why (I assume) Achaea went for illusion proof server side curing.

With this in mind, I'd MUCH RATHER have more players being able to defend themselves and engage in combat, than combat being left to a dedicated few with coding skills, dedication and/or money.

Tecton

I don't want to close this down from it turning into a pissing contest, so let's get back on the rails.

Regarding the perceived lower skill cap - perhaps if you're a lower-skilled person fighting a person with the default curing system, it'll probably be evenly matched. If someone knows how to use their skills effectively, they'll be able to overcome the default curing, so they'll still learn about combat and what works best, but instead of sitting down and pondering in the process of writing their own curing system, they can learn by actually playing the game - hitting the arena, or participating in raids. They can tweak the priorities, learn how to supplement it with their class skills and situational awareness. If anything, it's about the same, just on a more generally* enjoyable level. 

Higher-skilled players will still have an advantage over people who are less skilled, and now that we have an much more definitive defensive baseline, we can definitely tweak abilities to be more effective when used properly.

(*) I say generally, because different people like to work things out differently - if that's what you want to keep doing, you're free to!

Bonko

Tecton said:

I don't want to close this down from it turning into a pissing contest, so let's get back on the rails.

Decan

Id be less upset if the Admin just said "We didnt like Illusions so we removed them for the sake of balancing the game" Rather than making the claim that non-combatants will suddenly want to be combatants with 'default curing' as opposed to a robust aftermarket system that many of them already have.

That is all.

Aktillum

I wrote a teeny Hhelp file for our novices on the system, just warning them not to worry about priorities/advanced config for now and setting up the ideal health/mana sip percentage.

I do hope multiple priority lists get loaded in the future so we can quickly swap between them.

Tecton

Decan said:

Id be less upset if the Admin just said "We didnt like Illusions so we removed them for the sake of balancing the game" Rather than making the claim that non-combatants will suddenly want to be combatants with 'default curing' as opposed to a robust aftermarket system that many of them already have.

That is all.

We might say that if that was the reasoning, but it's not. Personally, I enjoyed figuring out how to break people's systems as a player (mind you, this was before today's crazy-good systems). As has been mentioned already in this thread, these days it's devolved into "what works before the next svo patch".

If you look through some of my older posts, I've mentioned they're a massive hinderance to the accessibility of combat. And any sort of "helping hand" would cause affliction illusions to take a big hit in effectiveness in their current form.

At the end of the day, it may or may not encourage people to want to be combatants, but it means that people don't have to feel forced to spend $20 in credits to buy SVO, or spend weeks/months learning their way around their client (or learning lua/cmud/javascript) to find out if they like it!

Trey

Decan said:

Id be less upset if the Admin just said "We didnt like Illusions so we removed them for the sake of balancing the game" Rather than making the claim that non-combatants will suddenly want to be combatants with 'default curing' as opposed to a robust aftermarket system that many of them already have.

That is all.

Decan

I get the reasoning for it, its to encourage new players by removing a perceived (and mostly actual) cost associated with starting up playing the game. I know that one of the big issues on this subject was "Oh so you're new? Well you pretty much have to get this client and system before you can really even do anything else you'll die alot"

Removing that roadblock is and should be a goal. But for serpent offence the loss of illusions takes a huge toll on the class (for the longest time any cry of being under powered was answered with "but you have illusions"), though it does make it infinitely easier to set up said offence when you don't have to incorporate illusions and timing them etc. 

I just dont think the changes to Serpent offence will be made to make up for the level of diversity in tactic that illusions offered. Though there are a ton of ways it could be done, it would require quite a few small changes to many skills and/or defenses, or a large change to how and when serpents can use bite/dstab/hypnosis/flay.

Sobriquet

I know from a personal standpoint I would have given up on Achaea within a few weeks if it wasn't for Larkin and the ACP. I had (have) little interest in spending hours upon hours coding a system when I have a job, kids, etc I wanted to be able to play, focus on offensive skills and get into the action pretty quick. Carmain and Vadi have gone along way to carry on what Larkin did and make systems, and therefor playing, available to all.

Due to Larkin's ACP I have spent a fair amount of money on Achaea, and helped contribute to @sarapis new kitchen, which I wouldn't have otherwise spent.

I am all for this change in allowing the complex nature of Achaea to be available to all it a base level. 

Kayeil

I like that the game finally has a server-side curing system. When I started this game I was brand new to MUDs as a whole, and I still am terrible at coding. I didn't even get a curing system until after level 80. I'm still using a 2+ year old buggy version of Omni 2.0 that makes me have to manual a bunch of things (half of my curing, most of my defs, etc) because it's just what I'm used to. Most of my own coding is extremely basic, or a few things here and there that other people gave me. I think server-side curing at the time of being a novice would've been helpful, but I am glad the future newbies can use it. I tried Aetolia for a while after learning my way around Achaea and they had server-side curing which made the game accessible to me because they didn't have anything like SVO or Omnipave that I could use so I was still able to hunt and participate in the game, while if I wanted to learn combat I would've had to learn to actually code lua to be competitive. So kudos to @Tecton, @Sarapis, and all of the others behind this new server-side curing, I think it's a good thing for the game.

Nim

So, how about that antitheft?

Alexandre

I wholeheartedly agree with and echo the opinions made by Kayeil. If I had had a built in curing system when I started things wouldn't have been nearly as confusing when it came to initially getting into combat. Especially since I was in Shallam and apart of the Paladins.

Sarapis

Decan said:

Kuy said:

Decan said:

I still dont agree, and sum up the argument for it like this:

I dont like to pk bash because I have to invest time and effort into setting up a client finding places to bash so the game should do all that for me so I can play better be dragon with as little effort as possible on my side.

I claim false analogy.

this analogy could be made for anything in achaea: I dont want to try so make it easier for me. Thats the sum of it, be it boats, bashing, pk, politics, crafting, or anything else for that matter. If you dont see the similarities its because you choose not to

If you've ever used a single trigger, a single alias, a single macro, you've done exactly what you're complaining about: Made the game easier for you. Unless you're prepared to play Achaea on a plain vanilla telnet connection, manually typing out all commands without any triggers, aliases, or macros, you've got no leg to stand on when you complain about things being made easier.

Alexandre

*starts slow clap*