Gold Sinks

Jovolo

650,000 gold for 850 lessons.  :-bd

reasonable investment

Bluef

Sarapis said:

Jovolo said:

This point of having them cheaper than credit equivalents is because if they were the same - you could just buy the credits instead. As Kuy pointed out, credits have a variety of uses from being converted into gold, lessons, artifacts or mayan crowns, whereas lessons will always only be used to increase a character's skills. I still put them at slightly above how much you can purchase house and city credits at, because you don't want to make such a method of gold sink too lucrative. 

It also just makes starting up and investing time in a character more rewarding and frankly addicting than having to grind for many, many, many (read; Too many) hours to get like 40% access to only your class skills at most. 

It also would be seriously effective as a gold sink. I bet plenty of people would earn and throw down 400k gold for 850 lessons, which isn't even half a transcendent skill, and still a lot of money, so the long-lasting potential of this is not arguable as I see it. There will always be people in this game that want, need, and will use a slightly easier method of transcending their character''s skills.

We'd never sell lessons for gold, especially considering you can already just use the credit market to buy the credits to buy the lessons.

I realize that when multiclass and trade skills come out, everyone will be really glad for IRE lesson gains. But then what? What about converting lessons to talismans (or vice versa)? I think Lusternia had the former set up at one point for their Curios. 

Sybell

Lessons -> Curios and most of the 'currencies' that could be converted into another became a problem and subsequently removed. The more limited the direction conversions, the better.

Kui

Bluef said:

Sarapis said:

Jovolo said:

This point of having them cheaper than credit equivalents is because if they were the same - you could just buy the credits instead. As Kuy pointed out, credits have a variety of uses from being converted into gold, lessons, artifacts or mayan crowns, whereas lessons will always only be used to increase a character's skills. I still put them at slightly above how much you can purchase house and city credits at, because you don't want to make such a method of gold sink too lucrative. 

It also just makes starting up and investing time in a character more rewarding and frankly addicting than having to grind for many, many, many (read; Too many) hours to get like 40% access to only your class skills at most. 

It also would be seriously effective as a gold sink. I bet plenty of people would earn and throw down 400k gold for 850 lessons, which isn't even half a transcendent skill, and still a lot of money, so the long-lasting potential of this is not arguable as I see it. There will always be people in this game that want, need, and will use a slightly easier method of transcending their character''s skills.

We'd never sell lessons for gold, especially considering you can already just use the credit market to buy the credits to buy the lessons.

I realize that when multiclass and trade skills come out, everyone will be really glad for IRE lesson gains. But then what? What about converting lessons to talismans (or vice versa)? I think Lusternia had the former set up at one point for their Curios. 

Sarapis is right that the credit market is there but its also pretty outrageous. Yesterday when I looked it was up to about 6800 per credit. 1225 or so for just 1 lesson. A person on a weak connection can never hope to bash up that much gold. There needs to be a balance in place but my idea to fix that is a pretty crappy one so I'll share it privately to an admin but I'm not gonna say it out loud because its either really good, or another helmet of thoughts. I cant decide.  Additional lessongains somehow relevant to a modest income is needed. especially if people are going to be losing their tradeskills to a seperate skill tree. If thats coming I for one will be pretty miffed.

Hasar

How many credits do you get for bashing to 90 or 80 for level credits? Enough to trans one or two ? They added more iirc

Eld

Hasar said:

How many credits do you get for bashing to 90 or 80 for level credits? Enough to trans one or two ? They added more iirc

200 bound credits total for bashing up to 80, I believe. So 1200 lessons, close to enough to trans one skill including leveling lessons, if you don't spend any lessons on anything else.

Sylvance

I hope this doesn't come off as straw-manning, but I just want to add my point of view here whilst we're talking about how difficult it is to get lessons: Nobody has the right to omni-trans. Or tri-trans. Or trans. Because Achaea's been around for a long time, and because there are lots of players who have chosen to support the game financially through credit purchases, there are lots of people who are multi-trans, but I don't think that means that it needs to be made easier for Joe Anybody to achieve it through bashing. Certainly not when there are so many ways to get credits by contributing to Achaea in other ways (City sales, Guild sales, Bardics). Equally, there's Iron Membership which hasn't even been around for the majority of the game's lifetime.

If IG credits are pricing people out of lots of skills then... unlucky. I don't think you need that many lessons to really enjoy the game anyway unless you're desparate to hit top-tier PvP right now.

Message ends.

Jovolo

243 bound credits for hunting to level 90, 1458 lessons. 425 lessons from 5 per starting from level 5 for a total of 1883 lessons. 

That's one transcendent skill and 147 lessons in another skill of your choosing. For hunting to level ninety... this doesn't include any gold you earn, but let's say you wanted to tri-trans around level 90 (Not an unreasonable wish!) you have 3325 lessons remaining. You'd have to make 392 credits to get tri-trans as well as leveling to 90. 392 x 5,000 gold = 1,960,000 gold. Nearly 2 million. 

So to tri-trans purely off in-game earnings, an estimate would be hunting to level ninety and making 2 million gold on the way. That's only for class skills, too. No Survival, Weaponry, Avoidance, Vision, Riding, or any of the miniskills. 

Not to mention you're going to need to spend a large amount of that money on curatives to get to level 90. You're probably looking at closer to 4 million and level 90 to transcend your class skills. 

Lol.

Shadrac

Jovolo said:

243 bound credits for hunting to level 90, 1458 lessons. 425 lessons from 5 per starting from level 5 for a total of 1883 lessons. 

That's one transcendent skill and 147 lessons in another skill of your choosing. For hunting to level ninety... this doesn't include any gold you earn, but let's say you wanted to tri-trans around level 90 (Not an unreasonable wish!) you have 3325 lessons remaining. You'd have to make 392 credits to get tri-trans as well as leveling to 90. 392 x 5,000 gold = 1,960,000 gold. Nearly 2 million. 

So to tri-trans purely off in-game earnings, an estimate would be hunting to level ninety and making 2 million gold on the way. That's only for class skills, too. No Survival, Weaponry, Avoidance, Vision, Riding, or any of the miniskills. 

Not to mention you're going to need to spend a large amount of that money on curatives to get to level 90. You're probably looking at closer to 4 million and level 90 to transcend your class skills. 

Lol.

Is that including the lesson bonus you would get from making the purchased credits bound?

There's a bonus you get in lessons for first 1000 bound or something right?

Jovolo

I included that in my calculations for all credits. 8.5 lessons per credit

Sarapis

Kui said:

Sarapis is right that the credit market is there but its also pretty outrageous. Yesterday when I looked it was up to about 6800 per credit. 1225 or so for just 1 lesson. A person on a weak connection can never hope to bash up that much gold. 

Then they have the option of purchasing credits with real money, which has gotten cheaper every year since about 1998. 

Jovolo

If you include the option of purchasing credits to transcend class skills, assuming a character invests enough time to hunt to level 90 (for the average person this would take about a month of several hours consistently bashing every day) and they purchased half of their credits (200) with real money - that becomes hunting to level 90, 2 million gold and $70. If you want to hunt to level 90, and then use all the gold you earn on curatives and buy all of the credits necessary to transcend, that becomes level 90 and $140. 

Now I'm only personally pissed off at this because I love Achaea, and I want to play it, but I'm also a student with pretty much no spare money - so the above impositions make it more than disheartening to try and get immersed in the game. When I move on from education and get a higher paying job, then I will probably end up splashing a shit load of cash at Achaea, no joke. Until then I'm in shit creek without a paddle and most notably the admin have no intention of alleviating this (Yeah, yeah, you increased bound credits. Single trans from hunting to level 90 isn't as impressive as it first sounds) 

It's your game and you can make it as expensive as you like, but the above isn't a reasonable expectancy for a person to get only their basic abilities - class skills. At the end of the day, whatever, it's a personal gripe I have and I certainly don't hold it against you as a person or a businessman. This is just me, complaining to you as a player of the game with aforementioned limitations.

Kui

Skills and lessons are just one way to drop a massive amount of gold, but then theres earning it, and one of my points is what about the people who can't bash? Low ping? etc.

Its pretty frustrating as a level 77 monk with level 2 bashing arties who can't bash because of my connection, and I'd like an alternative to earning gold. Fishing is too easily abused and its been nerfed because a few bad apples spoiled the bunch Also, any activity that you can completely automate and not have to have any social interraction just needs to go. When I think of a Massively Multiplayer Game, I think of factions, interractions, economics, etc. If you want to play with yourself, go get a choose your own adventure book and have at 'er.

We could have city jobs, house jobs, we have house duties, why not get paid for it? use that money however you like. If your house has millions of gold, and I dont know what a respectable number of house/city credits are but why not start giving some back? You wouldnt have it if not for the players, so give back to the players

I see an easy solution that will never happen because OMG it just might work

Eld

Kui said:

Skills and lessons are just one way to drop a massive amount of gold, but then theres earning it, and one of my points is what about the people who can't bash? Low ping? etc.

Its pretty frustrating as a level 77 monk with level 2 bashing arties who can't bash because of my connection, and I'd like an alternative to earning gold. Fishing is too easily abused and its been nerfed because a few bad apples spoiled the bunch Also, any activity that you can completely automate and not have to have any social interraction just needs to go. When I think of a Massively Multiplayer Game, I think of factions, interractions, economics, etc. If you want to play with yourself, go get a choose your own adventure book and have at 'er.

We could have city jobs, house jobs, we have house duties, why not get paid for it? use that money however you like. If your house has millions of gold, and I dont know what a respectable number of house/city credits are but why not start giving some back? You wouldnt have it if not for the players, so give back to the players

I see an easy solution that will never happen because OMG it just might work

You're saying this like house/city funds aren't in the hands of the players as is. These would be decisions for the org leaders (i.e., the players) to make, not the admin.

Shirszae

Kui said:

I see an easy solution that will never happen because OMG it just might work

While I don't think it would be quite as simple... It also won't happen because for the most part, org leaders would rather just sit on the gold. But yes, it would be great if every house position or city position was actually treated as a job instead of just volunteering. 

Kui

@eld Not every issue requires administrative involvement. We make out own politics and stuff.. we -could- do this for ourselves. In the past I've tried it but never stuck with it to see if it works.

My ideas are just ideas, I have serious doubts I could ever actually commit the time to achaea again to try and take something like this on, but theres no reason it shouldnt be there.

For gold sinks, we have ships, could change more housing to be gold based instead of credit/housing credit, Sometimes I kind of actually seeing gold as being an outdated currency. If you have enough gold you can buy anything (because of the overpriced credit market you can take obscene amounts and spend it there)

The way I picture Achaea is Greece 2500 years ago (I think thats about right? correct me if I'm wrong) Whatever you could have in excess in ancient Greece, you can have in Achaea.

The credit market itself is a bloody gold sink

Eld

Kui said:

@eld Not every issue requires administrative involvement. We make out own politics and stuff.. we -could- do this for ourselves. In the past I've tried it but never stuck with it to see if it works.

That was basically my point. It sounded like you were asking for the admin to make org positions paid or something. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Riley

Shirszae said:

Kui said:

I see an easy solution that will never happen because OMG it just might work

While I don't think it would be quite as simple... It also won't happen because for the most part, org leaders would rather just sit on the gold. But yes, it would be great if every house position or city position was actually treated as a job instead of just volunteering. 

I used to pay certain positions, or atleast reward extraordinary performance in your position..

Hasar

Well...you all should have farmed dyissans before the nerf, clearly.  :-bd

Cooper

People would be so mad at me if they knew I was the one that let Tecton know about the dyissan quest giving out way too much gold.

Eld

It's still some of the best gold/time if you can catch them up. Just not absurd.

Xith

Tengus were amazing for the time investment. Both gold and exp. They changed the quest at some point though.

Kui

@eld @riley What I was saying is that as players we can change/add to and create I'm not sure the wording so pardon me trying to sound smart here but an economical situation... The players can add to/take away all kinds of things, but I think if people who wanted a "Job" in achaea to earn gold, we should do that

The topic though being gold sinks, I was standing up for the idea of making lessons purchasable. The more I think about that though the more I see it can't work

Bluef

Jobs that earned individuals and organizations gold and credits used to be roleplayed a lot more than they are now. For example, toteming contracts that were dependent not on the number of totems repaired or implanted, but on an individual's willingess to drop everything to address current needs were once really common. 

I can remember people paying shamans and priests for spatial cleansings, healings, and blessings for city and guilds/Houses too. There were professional tarot card readers, graffiti artists, etc. too. It helped class skills be more of a roleplayed thing, which I thought was really fun personally. 

Personally, I think the player base could be the driving force behind gold sinks, if there were more of this and a greater opportunity for us to hawk our gathered or produced wares. A self-actualizing economy wouldn't be so dependent on the Garden nerfing gold drops, etc. to regulate the flow of sovereigns.  

Edit: I'm also a fan of actual auctions, not just auction houses. Let people "rent" an auctioneer platform and sell away their entire inventory if they want to. The auctioneer could set the starting bid price and let anyone in the room use a specific command like BID # gold in AUCTION # or something. 

Feral

A gold sink is something that takes gold permanently out of the hands of players. Having players earn more gold from non bashing activities would be great for the health of the game but it does nothing to regulate the supply of gold in circulation.


I am always surprised when games do not have rate caps on things like exp/gold. Especially with the size of this player base you need to have some kind of controls on generation.

Everyone complaining about credit prices should go take a look at Lusternia.

Sarapis

Feral is correct. Players selling to other players is not a gold sink. A gold sink is when gold is destroyed - for instance when you buy from a denizen-controlled shop.

Kyrra

I've always supported Rurin. >.>

Aktillum

What's that I hear in the distance? Is it...is it the Itinerant Bazaar coming to town?

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

I wouldn't mind seeing NPC armor repair in Achaea. Turn it into a way to extend the life of weapons/armor before they decay.

Shirszae

@Aktillum That would be nice, so long as it was really expensive and only added a few days worth to the weapon's life before having to be done again. 

Tesha

NPC armor repair (until weaponry changes?) would be used like crazy for the extremely high-end ultra-rare weapons. The problem with that is there are only a few of those. The other weapons would just be cheaper to replace.