Change To Contracts / Marks

Achimrst

Shecks said:

It's kinda pointless to put a high price on a contract if you don't know who's going to get it.

Wait a few weeks for the fail marks to lose stance and chance at getting the contract is my thought. 

Accipiter said:

Maybe make it so that Assassins can reject if the price is too low, and Ivory can see who took out the contract and can reject on that.

Also, disagreed because you have to take my measly 5 gold for the contract get to it! and I don't want the mark knowing who I am just kill the dude and you can see my name all day long!

Xer

Perhaps price should be related to reputation - the higher the price, the more guaranteed that you are to get a high ranking assassin instead of a lower one? That's the obvious solution - the actual correlation between price and reputation given how much people value getting their target killed by an assassin/champion, and how likely a mark is to succeed is something I honestly have no idea what it should be

Triak

When you complete a contract it should not show who/what you completed it for.  In Xer's post those could of went to say...a Targ mark like Sothantos.  So he gets a contract on Edris and completes it...and lo and behold it was for a Mhaldorian!....Hurray...

The Mark "agency" should act as the go between hiding both the hirer and the mark on both ends.  They should in theory never know who each other are - this is how real world groups operate.  Both parties have plausible deny-ability.  To further this the messages about completed contracts should be once a day at the serenade, via a letter.  This helps the mark stay more anonymous from the hirer.

The Ivory concern.  As in real life, agents/killers get contracts on people they do not wish to complete - this should stay in the game.  Their reputation as a get it done killer then diminishes, seems right to me.

Good changes, needs polish though.

Shecks

If you revert Ivory mark to how it was, every single mark will just change to Ivory Mark.  Screw that.

Sena

Triak said:

The Ivory concern.  As in real life, agents/killers get contracts on people they do not wish to complete - this should stay in the game.  Their reputation as a get it done killer then diminishes, seems right to me.

Should the Ivory and Quisalis Marks be functionally identical then, with the primary difference being the line shown in honours?

Having the only difference (from an non-mark's perspective) be flavour text and the occasional event would work well enough, but I think I'd prefer if they served slightly different purposes, with meaningful reasons for a hirer to choose one over the other.

Silas

Seems like a pretty lazy overhaul, with no real consideration for the differences in factions and how they operate. It's no surprise to me that people in Ashtan think it's fine that people should just do whatever, because freedom lol. Other orgs hold their members accountable for their actions, and this system makes no allowances for that as far as I can see.

Shecks

Silas, do you even play Achaea?  Or do you just play forums?

Silas

I mean, you have three times as many posts as me in the last month alone. Do you think at all before you post?

Maybe this is why people think you're an idiot.

Cynlael

Silas said:

I mean, you have three times as many posts as me in the last month alone. Do you think at all before you post?

Maybe this is why people think you're an idiot.

We don't think he's an idiot...


We know he's one.
inb4 Shecks flag, lol

Shecks

Way to (intentionally) miss the point.

Caladbolg

Silas said:

Seems like a pretty lazy overhaul, with no real consideration for the differences in factions and how they operate. It's no surprise to me that people in Ashtan think it's fine that people should just do whatever, because freedom lol. Other orgs hold their members accountable for their actions, and this system makes no allowances for that as far as I can see.

Tbh I see a random made up rp reason for this system to exist in targ (like back in shallam when the hunting list was becoming empty because people were making up random excuses to hunt innocent npcs)

or the complete removal of ivory mark/assassins from targ (pretty sure targ's only allowed Ivory anyways)

Since from an rp stand point Silas and Sothantos make a good point, Why would we work to possibley be assisting our enemies. 

On a side note who is this Shirzae person and why does she wtf every other post in every other topic, seriously.

Hellen

As a suggestion to the whole "What happens if a Mark gets a contract on a friend" thing, why not have the Mark able to turn down the contract at the (lowish) cost of reputation, returning the contract to the pool? Can't get a contract for a House, Order, or Citymate, so that should be a bit more justifiable, considering that you're sticking your neck out for a friend. Could even tip off the person that they've got a contract for them, leading to a possibly fun scenario.

This does seem more like a Quisalis thing than a Champion thing, maybe adding in something like the ability to hire a specific person at double (Or more) the base cost? Otherwise, Atlantia or whoever just chooses who looks like they could complete the job.

Nim

Caladbolg said:

On a side note who is this Shirzae person and why does she wtf every other post in every other topic, seriously.

No side notes, we're talking about how awesome/terrible marks are now! X(

Also, I personally like the new system a lot on paper - it's exciting and also a little foreboding. I think they probably could have handled the roleplay-related aspects just a tad better, but while there are plenty of champions who would fuss regarding the changes, Nim isn't exactly one of them.

Nizaris

I feel that either of the two of these needs to happen:

(1) Champions are overhauled using some of the ideas submitted in this thread.

(2) Champions are removed entirely, and replaced with Assassins.

There is no reason why the two "organizations" ought be idealistically different, but functionally the same. While the prior system was broken, it did allow for some choice/RP on the part of the mark.

Shecks

Nizaris said:

...

There is no reason why the two "organizations" ought be idealistically different, but functionally the same. While the prior system was broken, it did allow for some choice/RP on the part of the mark.

People choosing the mark was literally the entire root of the reason it was changed in the first place.  Taking that away makes marks a zillion times more functional and interesting, for the hirer, mark, and even target.  Really high-end guys will still continue to get more than other people, but at least now being a non-Jhui mark can be interesting again.

Eld

Shecks said:

Nizaris said:

...

There is no reason why the two "organizations" ought be idealistically different, but functionally the same. While the prior system was broken, it did allow for some choice/RP on the part of the mark.

People choosing the mark was literally the entire root of the reason it was changed in the first place.  Taking that away makes marks a zillion times more functional and interesting, for the hirer, mark, and even target.  Really high-end guys will still continue to get more than other people, but at least now being a non-Jhui mark can be interesting again.

He's saying it allowed the mark to choose/rp which angle to play (assassin v. champion) not allowed some choice of what mark to hire.

Nizaris

Eld said:

Shecks said:

Nizaris said:

...

There is no reason why the two "organizations" ought be idealistically different, but functionally the same. While the prior system was broken, it did allow for some choice/RP on the part of the mark.

People choosing the mark was literally the entire root of the reason it was changed in the first place.  Taking that away makes marks a zillion times more functional and interesting, for the hirer, mark, and even target.  Really high-end guys will still continue to get more than other people, but at least now being a non-Jhui mark can be interesting again.

He's saying it allowed the mark to choose/rp which angle to play (assassin v. champion) not allowed some choice of what mark to hire.

Yes.

Shecks

Well, I'm a big fan of the mark being able to reject the contract, and have it move to the next guy in line.  Maybe make that option just for Ivory Marks.

Jarrod

I feel like a lot of people are looking at the new Mark system like it's the exact same as the old Mark system. It's not.

You're not doing jobs for your enemies. You're doing jobs for the Ivory Mark or the Quisalis Mark. Each of those orgs has implications. Ideally, they would put something in to make Ivory slightly different, or appeal more to lower might/ranked people. Cost less but alerts the target someone is out to get them sort of thing. If Targossas doesn't support the Quisalis money for dead people philosophy, then they shouldn't have Quisalis Marks (they do).

Again, stop thinking about it as assisting your enemies. Start thinking about it as assisting the Ivory Mark, an organization that champions those who cannot fight for themselves in a situation.

Any system where the Mark can see who hired them is counter-productive to the new system. Small distinctions between Ivory/Quisalis are good, large distinctions that cause high incentive towards one or the other for -all- players are bad.

Accipiter

Jarrod said:

You're not doing jobs for your enemies. You're doing jobs for the Ivory Mark or the Quisalis Mark. Each of those orgs has implications. Ideally, they would put something in to make Ivory slightly different, or appeal more to lower might/ranked people. Cost less but alerts the target someone is out to get them sort of thing. If Targossas doesn't support the Quisalis money for dead people philosophy, then they shouldn't have Quisalis Marks (they do).

If that is true, then the Ivory Mark needs some way to filter the requests. Out of the box idea, make it so that Champions are paid in xp. It gives a more personal connection to the champion than just money, and makes a fundamental difference between the two orders that seems to be taken away with the new system.

Shecks

You're already paid in experience, because you get to kill people you otherwise wouldn't.  Also, gold is already useless (in the quantities we're talking about here), giving bonus experience is a little slanted.  They have also recently removed bonus experience for marks, I don't see it coming back again.

Lets give it a week or two to see how it works out, before criticising it further?

Silas

Jarrod said:

I feel like a lot of people are looking at the new Mark system like it's the exact same as the old Mark system. It's not.

You're not doing jobs for your enemies. You're doing jobs for the Ivory Mark or the Quisalis Mark. Each of those orgs has implications. Ideally, they would put something in to make Ivory slightly different, or appeal more to lower might/ranked people. Cost less but alerts the target someone is out to get them sort of thing. If Targossas doesn't support the Quisalis money for dead people philosophy, then they shouldn't have Quisalis Marks (they do).

Again, stop thinking about it as assisting your enemies. Start thinking about it as assisting the Ivory Mark, an organization that champions those who cannot fight for themselves in a situation.

Any system where the Mark can see who hired them is counter-productive to the new system. Small distinctions between Ivory/Quisalis are good, large distinctions that cause high incentive towards one or the other for -all- players are bad.

Targossas has no problem with the money for dead people philosophy of the Quisalis Mark, though there are problems with the Quisalis organisation that we were discussing alternatives to before this change happened. However, with this change, it is both feasible and entirely likely that Targossian marks will be championing people who we consider our enemies due to their citizenship or affiliation, and that Targossian citizens will be taking out contracts with people, even though it's technically through the Mark organisations, with people who we would likewise consider our enemies. We don't allow people to bypass this because of technicalities and middle men. We also don't care about championing people who can't fight for themselves, since a lot of those people go against the city's ideals.

Nothing in this system would be permitted in Targossas, which means that the only sensible course for us is to blanket ban the mark organisations, since there's no way we can trust that system to allow us to hold citizens accountable for their actions. This is not an ideal situation, and it's entirely the fault of a lazy overhaul. Targ's RP surrounding this has been in place since the city's founding. For whatever reason, the admins failed to take that into account, so we get shafted because of it.

Feral

Putting in place an entirely separate system for Ivory is probably not going to happen.

Possible fix:

Each city gets a local chapter of Ivory. Members of that chapter (who do not have to belong to that city) only get contracts from citizens of that city. Then cities can enforce whatever rules they want for what kinds of contracts are acceptable.

Shecks

I have been online since the update, and I still haven't received a single contract.

I think it might not work if you're off plane.  That kinda sucks, and should be reviewed, if so.

Silas

Offshoots of the Quisalis mark in the same sense would be nice.

ETA: If the local chapters specifically distanced themselves from their parent organisations, naturally.

To elaborate further on my post, the problem we have in Targ with the Quisalis org is that they fund kidnapping and torture, so gold paid by citizens of Targossas when they hire a Quisalis assassin as it stands goes towards that funding. What we were looking at before was similar to Feral's suggestion: that we'd get a handwaving event or post from Deucora about a Targossian branch of the Quisalis mark into which all Targossian contracts would be paid. It'd have had no mechanical differences, just a cheap and easy way of allowing Targossas to have assassins, since assassination is absolutely fine under the ideals of the city.

This new change no es bueno.

Zeon

Obvious fix here is to make it so only Hashani can be assassins and only Cyreneians(?) can be champions.

More seriously, why not just make it so marks can talk to some denizen to put them on a city-mate only list. If they want to get less contracts at the cost of them being more exclusive then why not?

Jarrod

The city-mate only contracts is exactly what this change was put in to stop. Why start suggestions at reverting the biggest part of the change?

Again, you're saying you might be employing enemies or employed by enemies. Neither of these is the case. Quit living in the past Mark system.

If you oppose how the Quisalis spends their money, a local chapter both wouldn't exist and wouldn't change the issue. They're still the Quisalis mark. It isn't some Divine thing to give you your own Mark system, that organization exists and you can do business with it or not. The same is true of the Ivory Mark.

If Targossas decides they don't want to deal with either Mark organization, then that's an incredibly silly decision. It would be easily justifiable in the supposed 'new Good' that as long as the target is slain, those who are oppressed by the other cities are championed, and net positive results occur, it's for the greater Good and is fine.

Silas

That's not how Targossas works. While I and I'm sure everybody else greatly values your input on something you evidently don't know anything about, I'm sure we'll cope if you stop harping on about how things should work for everybody, and how everybody should be satisfied with this change because you like it.

Thank you.

Shecks

It's "Do whatever we feel like (like inducting Santar) and call it Good, because all the gods who cared about RP quit, and we can do whatever we like."?

Shirszae

Shecks said:

It's "Do whatever we feel like (like inducting Santar) and call it Good, because all the gods who cared about RP quit, and we can do whatever we like."?

There's no word or retort half as pleasing as simply reading what you write and realizing that you truly and sincerely have no idea whatsoever of half the shit you spout.