Change To Contracts / Marks

Shecks

It's awesome.

There are a few obvious ways it can be abused, we'll have to see what happens.

Thanks to the admins keeping a constant flow of great improvements.

Draekar

ANNOUNCE NEWS #4055                                     (02/21/2014 at 22:49)  

From   : Tecton, the Terraformer

To     : Everyone

Subject: Marks and Contracts

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Marks and contracts have received an overhaul today! The changes come in an effort to provide a 

fairer and more accessible system for all players to seek retribution against their killers. The 

details of the changes are as follows:

* There is now an internal system of reputation and rank in the Ivory and Quisalis Mark. Rank is 

directly affected by completing (or failing) contracts. The highest-ranked Assassin and Champion 

will receive a custom deathsight on their kills, as well as an honours line.

* Contracts will be automatically assigned to a random active member of the Ivory or Quisalis Mark. 

The higher/lower their reputation, the more/less likely they are to receive a contract. There are 

limits here; Marks with many active contracts will be less likely to receive more until they have 

completed some.

* A hirer may only take out one contract on a target at a time. A hirer may have up to five active 

contracts at a time.

* A contract will never be assigned to a Mark that is in the same House, City, or Order as the 

target.

* All contracts require a reason to be specified when requesting a contract. This is shown to the 

victim upon successful completion of the task, and used by the Administration in the event of any 

issues arising. The Mark never sees the reason.

* Target will not be automatically notified of a contract being filed against him or her.

* There are a few duplicitous individuals throughout the lands who have connections to the Quisalis 

and Ivory Marks, and are willing to tell you if you have a contract out on your head (but none of 

the specifics)... for a price.

* The hirer is now kept anonymous from the Mark, and vice-versa, until completion of the contract, 

when all involved parties will be notified.

* Contracts are active for 30 Achaean days. This time decrements in a similar manner to infamy 

(details listed in HELP CONTRACTS).

Penned by My hand on the 16th of Aeguary, in the year 648 AF.

Draekar

Also is the minimum hire fee 5k now? a little bit rough on the little guy just trying to get something back. I overall like the new system though, I can see a few possible problems or ways it might be abused, but seems a big improvement on the previous system.

Shecks

A lot of commands and help files are different now too.  Check'em out.

5,000 gold to kill someone makes perfect sense.  The concept of free or even kickback contracts has always been really, really hated.

Naah

I feel like @Tesha is going to get a custom deathsight within the next few months here. :P

Nim

Oh god, this means my crippling self esteem issues won't keep me from getting to murder people anymore. I-I'm excited b-but also scared

Accipiter

I am confused, you could take a contract out on someone, and it is possible it will never be fulfilled because the system assigned it to someone who isn't in the same time zone sat he target? Or do all parties have to be online for it to work?

Zeon

Does this mean that all long time marks are going to need to drop all the contracts they've been waiting on for years (due to targets doing dormant), in order to receive new contracts?

Zeon

Also does hiring a champion now cost the same amount of money? If not what incentive do people have for hiring Quisalis if they can't be selective in who gets the contracts?

Nim

Zeon said:

Also does hiring a champion now cost the same amount of money? If not what incentive do people have for hiring Quisalis if they can't be selective in who gets the contracts?

I have the reverse question. Aren't champions supposed to potentially do it out of some sense of justice or values (as potentially alien or strange they might be)? If they don't get a reason, and presumably still get less pay, why go ivory?

Katzchen

Nim said:

Also does hiring a champion now cost the same amount of money? If not what incentive do people have for hiring Quisalis if they can't be selective in who gets the contracts?

I have the reverse question. Aren't champions supposed to potentially do it out of some sense of justice or values (as potentially alien or strange they might be)? If they don't get a reason, and presumably still get less pay, why go ivory?

The Ivory Mark (HELP CHAMPIONS), whose members uphold honour and the plight of the weak.
The Quisalis Mark (HELP ASSASSINS), who use any means necessary to eliminate a target.

How does this system remotely go along with what the Ivory stands for? It's a great mechanical thing to limit hiring, but it completely screws with the flavour of the Ivory Mark. My character has zero reason to want to complete a random contract.

Draekar

Yeah the system seems perfect for the Quisalis, but not really for the RP of the Ivory, which is a little sad.

But one thing I was wondering about was the assignment system, so you basically have the following. 

* A contract will never be assigned to a Mark that is in the same House, City, or Order as the 

target.

But does it also mean that an Ashtani could hire on a Cyreni and this could be allocated to a mark in Targossas? 

Would it be better if the contract assignment prioritized marks in your own House/Order/City first rather than by the rank of all marks?

I may just be misunderstanding the system, but it seems like it would cause at the minimum RP problems for marks.

Katzchen

I'm wondering if it doesn't tell you who took out the contract? So you simply get told who your target is... again, great for Quisalis, horrible for Ivory.

Strata

Did the MARKWHO command get completely deleted or has it changed? I am definitely liking that change. Now more people without gems will join Mark = more cause! YAY!!!!

Kei

Maybe a tiny change that makes it slightly better, re Katzchen et al.'s concern:

Quisalis gets more money, because that's what they care about.

Ivory gets to see the reason they're being hired, so they can be properly indignant.

(ETA: Very cool change, though, I'd been waffling over whether I should take Kei mark or not, this is a nice change )

Sena

It says that the mark doesn't know who hired them.

The hirer and the mark know who the target is.
Only the hirer knows who the hirer is.
Only the mark knows who the mark is.

Jarrod

Draekar said:

* The hirer is now kept anonymous from the Mark, and vice-versa, until completion of the contract, 

when all involved parties will be notified.

This whole change works really well for the Quisalis side, focusing more on the Mark organization than on any individuals. It shouldn't matter what org the target you assigned is affiliated to. You signed up to be an assassin for hire, if you don't want to deal with the consequences of such, you can freely leave the Mark without consequence. I very much like this change, as it makes being a Mark actually mean something.

I do think something should be added in for Ivory to work more thematically for them, since you can still choose which side you're hiring. I don't know what a good solution might be though. Possibly a cheaper hire fee, but it informs the target they've been hired on? Just tells them they've been hired upon, not the Mark member or hirer. That way when the relatively weaker need to be defended, they don't have to break the bank to get justice, but the perpetrator knows it's coming. On the other side, if some rich scoundrel wants someone eliminated, he calls the assassins up and puts an expensive hit out.

Might not work, but could be a possible solution?

Shecks

I hope someone gets hired to kill their alt.

Quisse

I don't know how it was before, but I love this! I love everything about this. Now to figure out more about these things in game...

Sothantos

Honestly, I think the new system is horrible, logistically. Others have already talked about how this makes no sense for Ivory, but other potential problems that haven't been mentioned:

1. People could hire excessively/without a reason on you and if you're involved in combat a lot, you might not even notice a difference.

2. You could get a contract on a friend who's in another city then intentionally not complete it.

3. You have no assurance that the person the contract goes to can/will kill someone. For instance, Person X might have a high kill rate, but he's a serpent vs a priest target. In that case in the previous system, you could pick and get someone more likely to win.

4. If you're being unfairly targetted, hiring no longer gives the 'warning' to the person to back off you.

4. If people start jumping you, it's hard to tell if you're being griefed by those people, or if you have legitimate contracts on you.

And going back to Katzchen's point: I think it works for certain unattached factions, but as a Targ mark, it's kind of a disaster. RP-wise, there's no reason I'd want to just randomly kill people as accomplishments for reasons unaware to me, especially if some Ashtani or Hashani hires me on an Eleusian or something.

Jarrod

Sothantos said:

Honestly, I think the new system is horrible, logistically. Others have already talked about how this makes no sense for Ivory, but other potential problems that haven't been mentioned:

1. People could hire excessively/without a reason on you and if you're involved in combat a lot, you might not even notice a difference.

Given you have to supply a reason, it's reasonable to assume that -someone- is at least looking at them. Multiple people have to hire on someone to cause this to happen, since you can't take hire twice on the same person at once. Extremely unlikely scenario. Also, the reason being available for issue purposes further makes this unlikely.

2. You could get a contract on a friend who's in another city then intentionally not complete it.

Then don't be a Mark. The Mark organization doesn't care about your friends. It's there to hand out targets to its members. If you don't want to do what the Mark org wants, you can leave.

3. You have no assurance that the person the contract goes to can/will kill someone. For instance, Person X might have a high kill rate, but he's a serpent vs a priest target. In that case in the previous system, you could pick and get someone more likely to win.

Initially this might seem like a problem, but contracts will be more likely to go to effective Marks as time goes on. Also, it doesn't matter if it's Serpent v Priest if the Priest isn't prepared at all for it. You're assuming a duel for every contract which isn't likely.

4. If you're being unfairly targetted, hiring no longer gives the 'warning' to the person to back off you.

You can still tell them..."I've hired on you, good luck" or something.  Just because the system doesn't inform them doesn't mean you can't.

4. If people start jumping you, it's hard to tell if you're being griefed by those people, or if you have legitimate contracts on you.

^5. This is a legitimate point, and hopefully is addressed by some system to cause something like an increased decay if you're in the same room as the Mark, so if they fail multiple times the rate goes down quickly.

The new system is a huge improvement with some flaws that can be worked out as they arise.

Shecks

Issue #4 (part 2) is actually a pretty good point.

I think informing the target might have to be a requirement, unfortunately.

Sothantos

Re: "If you don't want to do what the Mark org wants, you can leave.

Okay, but then no Targossians can be Mark. We're not supposed to randomly kill people.

Also, I actually meant this is unfortunate for the hirer, not the hiree. I mean, you could get a Mark that doesn't complete it on purpose. 

edit: this post was vague

Jarrod

Sothantos said:

"Then quit Mark."

Okay, but then no Targossians can be Mark. We're not supposed to randomly kill people.

Also, I actually meant this is unfortunate for the hiree, not the hirer. I mean, you could get a Mark that doesn't complete it on purpose. 

If someone doesn't complete contracts, ideally they'd suffer high reputation losses for letting it decay, meaning they will get less and less.

Sothantos

I just realized I can't count.

Sena

Sothantos said:

1. People could hire excessively/without a reason on you and if you're involved in combat a lot, you might not even notice a difference.
If you don't notice a difference, is there really a problem with that?

2. You could get a contract on a friend who's in another city then intentionally not complete it.
I'm fine with this, actually. In terms of RP, it makes sense, and it's not like it's a huge problem if the contract is never completed.

And going back to Katzchen's point: I think it works for certain unattached factions, but as a Targ mark, it's kind of a disaster. RP-wise, there's no reason I'd want to just randomly kill people as accomplishments for reasons unaware to me, especially if some Ashtani or Hashani hires me on an Eleusian or something.
This is what I think the Ivory Mark should be for. I'd like if the Quisalis are stealthy and anonymous assassins (this new system), while Ivory are upfront champions (more "fighting in another person's place" than assassinating someone) and care about the reasons (something closer to the old system, with all sides being fully aware of the details of the contract).

Shecks

90% of the Ivory mark didn't give a crap about the "reason", and maybe 9% of the remaining 10% only pretended to.  Marks are marks to boast, and to get cause on people.  The people who do it for RP are such a tiny minority that I don't think it's even worth worrying about.  Also, if I understand right, one of the primary purposes of this change was to get away from the "everyone in Ashtan hires Jhui", "everyone in Targossas hires Santar" crap, which makes being a mark pretty lame, and pointless.

Sothantos

The primary reason of the Mark being to do it for RP or not has nothing to do it, because in certain organizations, RP rules are enforced whether or not you care about RP. As a Targossian, we're not allowed to hire enemies to do things for us, and we're also not allowed to kill people who haven't really done anything to us roleplay-wise. For instance, if I went out and killed some Eleusians because I felt like it, I would probably get in trouble. This means that Targossians would have some problems both hiring and accepting contracts -- the new Mark system would be unusable to us unless there were changes to how Ivory Marks work.

Sena

Ivory could be assigned semi-randomly like this, but with the mark seeing the reason, and being able to refuse a contract (so it's re-assigned to someone else) with no reputation loss.

Jarrod

Sothantos said:

The primary reason of the Mark being to do it for RP or not has nothing to do it, because in certain organizations, RP rules are enforced whether or not you care about RP. As a Targossian, we're not allowed to hire enemies to do things for us, and we're also not allowed to kill people who haven't really done anything to us roleplay-wise. For instance, if I went out and killed some Eleusians because I felt like it, I would probably get in trouble. This means that Targossians would have some problems both hiring and accepting contracts -- the new Mark system would be unusable to us unless there were changes to how Ivory Marks work.

You're not hiring an enemy. You're hiring the Quisalis or Ivory Mark group. They are in turn assigning one of their members to do the job.

On the other side, you could see it two ways. 1) You're doing your job as a Mark member by killing X person, not killing randomly. or 2) Hopefully Ivory gets something like Sena mentioned, and then being Ivory will be the standard in Targossas, where you can use your judgement on the contracts.

If some pass were to be put in though, perhaps add something where if all Ivory Marks pass on a contract, they're all penalized some amount of gold and the contract is sent to the Quisalis after X days? I doubt this situation will ever arise (Jhui is Ivory, he'll take anything ), it's good to have contingencies.

Strata

The hiring should be completely anonymous. For everyone. The mark member should not know the identity of the one who hired, and the one who is hired on shouldn't even know they've been hired on UNTIL they are attacked by the mark member. Once they're attacked, they should be notified so they know why - otherwise... issues.

Opening it back up to the old way would be pointless. I am really glad for this overhaul because people have become way too pro at dodging contracts.

Regarding Ivory Mark - it should be converted into an entirely separate organization with completely different mechanics and rules. For example, hiring an Ivory Mark member makes every person involved aware of the contract, the contracts last much shorter periods of time than Quisalis contracts, and they MUST be completed via duel to the death (to prevent the usual nullification teaming bullshit). If the target refuses to duel for the contract, they get attacked by a denizen champion shortly after the contract expires. The denizen should be powerful enough that most don't stand much of a chance against it, the contract is completed and then only 1/2 of the experience is given to the person who hired and the mark member gets nothing. This should not affect the Ivory Mark's status as a good/bad mark either - since 9/10 people will refuse the duels.

For Quisalis, everything aspect should be anonymous - and the supposed denizens with internal connections to the mark system who you can pay to get the identity should be removed. Once those quests are figured out, the anonymity aspect will be completely nullified and it's back to the original mark system where those who get hired on just hop on alt characters or never leave their ships/well protected inside city/only come on game when their assassins aren't around.