Magi Classleads/Skillset

Saeva

Shecks said:

Have retardation vibe present in a room either stop, or delay (with a warning) incoming projectiles.

It still wouldn't really matter... you wouldn't have time to leave before you were shot

Shecks

@saeva

If it was something like a 3-4 second delay, it'd be enough to leave. However that's also an opening for crazy damage stacking by shooting a few arrows then just walking in and stormhammering.

Personally I'd lean towards just having projectiles fall to the ground due to the presence of a retardation vibe. The retardation/triggered snipe gimmick will not be missed.

Bonko

Yeah, triggered sniping from phase is boss.

@Tecton can confirm that I'm the only serpent he's allowed to still get alertness messages while phased. Guess there's some advantages to being Tecton's alt.

Saeva

The retardation vibe doesn't delay a shot that long though. That's the thing. If they are outside of retardation they are still sniping at regular speed. Which is why it's -so- deadly. and the arrow falling to the ground.....maybe if the gravity vibe were tweaked to effect projectiles? But mostly, I'm pretty sure, it just stops you from flying over that area. But retardation slows things, it doesn't drag them down.

So the proposed would likely be more likely if you were to say the gravity vibe would cause projectiles to fall to the ground. But even then it would be in the hands of the magus and not the victim.

Jhui

sad part is, arrows are both the balancing and imbalancing factor for retardation.

imagine if arrows or any LoS weren't viable on a large melee where the person lays retardation?  It's not hard to completely overwhelm those people in the room with retard and a few people, so the ability for people outside the room to kill the layer is pretty necessary

Kaden

Yeah, I'm totally fine with retardation sniping because of the fact that it's probably one of the most effective tools against magi using retardation as much as it is effective for the magi using it. There are others but they're a bit trickier in a room the magi controls. It's not impossible to get out either if there's only one or two sniping you.

Jarrod

Only thing that would be reasonable to change would be to implement a 1s delay on arrow fire to arrow hit, visible in room.

An arrow flies in from the <dir> towards <target>.

An arrow connects on <target>.

In the long-term, this wouldn't result in any difference. In the short-term, this would prevent random retards on paths with two adjacent trigger-snipers from being guaranteed kills. If you did a double direction, you'd get out before the arrows from the alertness trigger/shooter reaction time hit you.

Shecks

Or just make it strip speed/aeon identically to aeon. Meh. I think retardation is totally fine, just like convocation was fine... Not an issue until some a-hole finds a way to get guaranteed kills, then spends every waking moment abusing it until it gets changed. Not sure how it has lasted so long really, it's been the goto tactic for lamers for as long as I can remember.

Jovolo

It's just a strategy for 2+ vs 1 situations. Hardly "laming". That said, taking away the emphasis on fighting outside of melee is a good thing, especially in the case of retardation, so something akin to Jarrod's suggestion is a good idea to consider.

Mithridates

Shecks said:

Or just make it strip speed/aeon identically to aeon. Meh. I think retardation is totally fine, just like convocation was fine... Not an issue until some a-hole finds a way to get guaranteed kills, then spends every waking moment abusing it until it gets changed. Not sure how it has lasted so long really, it's been the goto tactic for lamers for as long as I can remember.

Retardation is the biggest double-edged sword in the game. Pull your panties out and move on, please. 

Shecks

Mithridates said:

Retardation is the biggest double-edged sword in the game. Pull your panties out and move on, please. 

I completely agree with you - retardation -is- fine for solo combat, when used -during- combat. The issue a lot of people have with it is when it's used outside of combat (like a veiled, gemmed magi placing it on clouds/highway with frozen ground, and triggering Delph arrows on whoever hits alertness). This isn't a double edged sword, because the magi is not at any risk of death at all, while the target has a 90% chance of dying.


Edit: I'll go ahead and make silas' response for him:

Silas: Just have meta wake up 100% of the time, noob. (Throwback to convocation into guards era)

Shecks

@cathy yes, the game needs a way to get rid of firewalls, IMO. Perhaps just casting icewall could neutralize it (without creating an icewall)...? A conversation for another day I think.

Cathy

Shecks said:

@cathy yes, the game needs a way to get rid of firewalls, IMO. Perhaps just casting icewall could neutralize it (without creating an icewall)...? A conversation for another day I think.

Rainstorm

Florentino

Use your allies (6+ members of the A-team) to gank the shit out of Bonko/Earionduil whenever they are online, you all have veils and more artefacts than they do and they can't run to any cities. Sometimes the answer isn't to balance it so 1 person can survive 2 competent opponents' strategy, it's to tell the 1 person to use politics or other clever tactics to win (i.e. your Annwyn totems, which I think are fine if you use them judiciously and Exelethril shouldn't have been complaining about).

Jhui

Ships

It's gank/reboard. No such thing as retaliation. Best thing to do is laugh and pretend it didn't happen

Xith

Retardation is a large (or only) part of what makes Magi able to handle multiple opponents, which still isn't up for debate.

Deepfreeze for example has no use outside retardation unless you have 3+ magi. But when attempting to level the playing field results in one person escaping and sniping, giving the other time to also escape and snipe -- assuming you live that long -- it's a problem. It's not the damage I have a problem with, it's the ranged afflicting.

Retardation is a melee tool. My first suggestion was to give an elevated chance to dodge arrows because they're slow enough to see flying sluggishly through your room. Dodge chance can still be reduced by webs/prone/paralysis/etc. but it prevents the magi or their enemies or their own team from relying on retardation snipes as a way to kill.

"But then you could use retardation defensively to prevent LoS engagements!"

First of all... boo-hoo? LoS is boring as shit. Secondly, slower health sips against breathstream and meteor/thurisaz and grove lightning and everything else that wouldn't be affected. (oh and cataclysm) I don't call that any sort of advantage.

Cathy

Magi should not be able to handle multiple opponents better than any other class, regardless of what a bit of flavour text tells you.

Naah

I love it when a magi places down retardation

Kai cripple
mind batter
mind disrupt
mind paralyze

the list goes on. Throw a highlight on their vibe-prep, get an icewall down, throw a flamed mono in the next room. 

I mean, I continuously fight magi to get better; I don't complain about retardation. I complain about their retarded damage with artes.
Hue, but really. I think Magi is fine to go against. 

@Alrena can vouch that people just tumble on the leg break, or absurdly pre-battle prep the area. I mean, I know not all classes have the availability to be able to deal with retardation; especially in walk-in/group/ganking situations, but doesn't mean it's broken. Sure, in the right hands it's over powered; but I very much find it a double edged blade that I can make a magi regret putting it down.

Edit: Just as an after thought; I've seen retardation backfire on groups so many times. We've retardation/beckoned in a group or two and just got our asses handed to us on a silver platter; just the same as I've seen people scout out the retardation and get braziered/summoned out and still be kept alive. If we're talking about the surprise factor, sure, but I've never really seen a Magi start spamming stormhammer in a borderraid. Mostly just single-target spells, or putting down retardation with a trap (grr) and zapping from afar. I think it's not simply retardation that's broken, it's what endless amounts of things can be put down with retardation to simply make escaping a situation impossible. Ghand/Retard, Berceuse/Retard/Vibes, Hellsight/Demons/Retard, Telepathy/Retardation. Quite literally, it's endless. I always enjoy combat; I don't care much about the try hards; but when I hunt Moghedu and walk into retardation into a Mhun stack, I just have to laugh. If you're running into something blind, you deserve to get slammed by a retardation room. Go get some cube sigils and throw in every room before you move, get a serpent to scout, if any Shamans/Jesters existed (sadness) get them to fashion you and help you scout. I know things are easier said than done; but I feel like retardation is over complained about when, if played smart, can be used against the magi who put it down in the first place

tl;dr: What I think is retardation is really only useful if the magi has a partner, otherwise; I find their multi-targetting pitiful unless they ( @Hasar ) put down 20 holobombs for lulz. This is in no way saying that everyone should agree with me; but it's just my two cents about whenever I see retardation outside defendable or while we're being raided.

Shecks

@Naah @Xith @Mithridates : I swear, don't post, if you're not going to read anything above it.

Nobody has a problem with retardation in either solo, or group combat.

What a lot of people, including myself, despise, is when it's used essentially "out of combat", as a trap/deathroom.  To re-iterate, it doesn't "backfire" when used as a trap, because alertness/snipe doesn't involve anyone actually being in the retardation, except for the victim, who generally isn't deffed and doesn't know it's coming.  Literally speaking, the only counter to this is to not walk anywhere.  This includes even in your own city, as Bonko/Earionduil have proved how easy it is to just sit around in cities and wait for random non-coms to walk into frozen ground/retardation, where they are delph sniped to death, before they Duanathar out.

So to re-iterate, if classleads are going to look at Magi / Retardaertion, they need to try to find a way to tweak it in a way that stops this, without affecting magi solo combat.  A complete re-work of how it works would be one solution, preventing projectiles into retardation would also work.  I'm sure there are other good ideas out there, just gotta find them.

Saeva

I'm surprised more than anything that you have such a problem with it, Shecks. Considering that evading out is ....the easiest escape you could hope for.

Jovolo

Not when shot off alertness!/Squint!

Shecks

@Saeva first of all, I'm speaking for every class, since I've been nearly all of them, not just serpent.  Secondly, evading out is exactly as easy as walking out, yet people die to it constantly.  With Lupine, you have < 1 second to react before you're prone, and another 1.5 before you're sleep locked.  With two shooters, you're instantly sleep-locked.

Jovolo

If you're really tanky, there's a high chance for survival with well timed metawake tumble. You really shouldn't ever be moving around without kola/quartz up, so it is your fault if you get sleep locked from snipe. However, everything else I agree with.

Evade is better than walking out btw, but paralysis and prone stops both, so it's irrelevant.

Mithridates

@Shecks

Shecks

I bet you got beat up a lot in school.

Mithridates

shekz plz

Kaden

You know...the last (and only) time someone tried to ambush me with just retardation and sniping, I just walked out of the room.

Shecks

I'm sure most non-coms don't get ambushed that often.

Xith

Anyway, moving on to the mysterious 3rd skillset.

I'd almost like to see staff fighting, to give a physical element. Staffstrike feels like a move in that direction, especially considering that it's balance based rather than eq.

Had some ideas for abilities to add. These are designed to aid Magi's attacks outside retardation while providing limited benefit in Retardation due to timing factors.

Infuse <element>: Saturates the [battle]staff with the element, which is then transferred to the target on-hit. Could also be infused directly into the target but I think the two-step process balances better for retardation. Infusing adds a level of the element's influence into the target. Each level will fade after 18 seconds of contact (max 6 levels), and while above 3 levels, a particular effect is granted (similar to tempered humours). (3s BAL on the ability) Effects as follows:

Earth: Limbs too heavy to parry. Also cancels (not strips) levitation's effect

+ - staffstrike, geyser/gravity/tremors

Water: Icy skin causes double salve balance (except restoration)

+ - deepfreeze, efreeti/staffstrikefire, freeze

Fire: Causes bayberry/hawthorn/moss to disintegrate in target's mouth.

+ - transfix, stridulation, general damage

Air: Cancels (not strips) mass's effect.

+ - adduction, [Cyclone - see below]

Couple other ideas for Elementalism or whatever:

Cyclone - lifts unmassed enemies into the sky.

Thunderbolt - Moderate damage to enemies on the ground, greatly increased damage to flying enemies

Magi have a few elevation-based techniques that could be made part of additional kill strategies, so that's the basis for those.

Mithridates

No. No physical fighting. No fancy staff work. That's fruity.