Magi Classleads/Skillset

Mithridates

@Cooper explain the multiple opponent hindering that magi has, please. Really looking forward to this. 

Accipiter

Freeze ground, icewall, firewall, adduction, retardation?

Mithridates

All of those are so easy to get around (besides retardation, which isn't hindering) that they shouldn't even be counted. 

Alaskar

I don't think they're meant to be unavoidable. I mean, which classes really have truly group hindering abilities? I think our group utility is pretty decent. A team can be devastating, a single magi in a group can really lock up a single opponent or do significant damage or griefing with vibes. I think Magi sit at an interesting position balance wise. Very few people seem willing to sit in retardation against a competent Magi, and that's awesome. It forces creativity, innovation, etc. I'd like to see more utility spells in elementalism, just the flavor-type, not even particularly useful. 

My biggest fear is a huge nerf to elementalism and crystalism, whether by reducing effectiveness of spells or reducing the number available, and then introducing a third skill that may or may not be as fun, just to keep us "balanced."

Magi is literally the only class I have a deep interest in, so plz don't hurt it  

 

Mithridates

Magi is in a great spot right now. Could use a piety-like vibe. Maybe one that hits 25% of the time, not 30%. But overall quite balanced. 

Xith

I think that vibe is called freeze ground or something. But since people cry when dying to retardation, any extra hindering that is added has to be effective only outside retardation. I shouldn't get too attached to my infuse element idea, but it would create limited hindering abilities if the magi deems them necessary enough that they infuse the target multiple times first.

It'd have to be other multi-step things because retardation invalidates those. The same way that you don't spin vibes while already in retardation (maybe something to look into though). In the year plus since these ideas were first announced by the ermaGerden I'm sure they've developed their ideas for a class or two but I can't gauge what kind of timeline they're on now.

Circling back around to the creative process and constructive criticism, whatever the admin hasn't decided on can be influenced by player discussion. That's the neat thing about Achaea. I think being constructive is as helpful to them as it would be to me.

And by the way, there is nothing that makes you more qualified than I to come up with ideas for my favorite class. Your say-so STILL does not instantly make me an amateur in game balance or design.

I never claim my ideas are flawless, and in fact I concede/reform the bad ones under evidence, as I have. You will offer evidence or you will offer nothing. I made a bid for a constructive attitude in the opening post. If you can't adhere to it, go away.

Saeva

Xith said:

I think that vibe is called freeze ground or something.

No. That is not a vibe.

Cooper

Mithridates said:

@Cooper explain the multiple opponent hindering that magi has, please. Really looking forward to this. 

Already did that at least once in this thread.

Jovolo

The problem is that people only ever see piety, gravehands, tentacles and wildgrowth as "hindering" abilities and all other forms of hindrance are automatically terrible. 

Of course this opinion is somewhat legitamised with the plethora of earrings around (which by the way bypass the aforementioned hindering abilities) but come on: Freeze ground, passive proning/disruption/dizziness/gravity/amnesia/crippled legs to all enemies in the room, to name a few, along with active illusions that affect everyone in the room/webbing/transfix/3 person stormhammer and this is not even counting the 1 action per second equalizer that is retardation. Magi have pretty good "hindrance" relative to all other classes.

Mithridates

Freeze ground and icewalls are more of a hindrance to a good mage than it is the enemy. They stop a mage from chasing an enemy that's pre-positioned monolith sigils that tumbles out of a room. I've had nothing but bad experiences with both. Furthermore, web in retardation is a bad idea because most people have buckawns. 

Hasar

Perhaps Magi needs some changes, as 'serious' fights turn into sigil wars. But there are ways around it all, if you get creative and the enemy isn't paying 100% attention.

But uh, I haven't really seen much here that fixes any of those problems, imo.

Accipiter

Mithridates said:

All of those are so easy to get around (besides retardation, which isn't hindering) that they shouldn't even be counted. 

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Kaie

Magi is pretty good. I think it's pretty much been said, but most of those ideas seem to lean a lot towards just being outrageously powerful. As for the Beckon thing, there is a reason Mass stops Adduction. Anyways, Magi is really good if you play it right. I think there's just that mentality that one's own class is always inferior. The whole, grass is greener on the other side. Losing Enchanting isn't going to warrant any major buffs, it's the removal of a trade skill, which is likely already being replaced with useful skills.

Mithridates

Kaie said:

Magi is pretty good. I think it's pretty much been said, but most of those ideas seem to lean a lot towards just being outrageously powerful. As for the Beckon thing, there is a reason Mass stops Adduction. Anyways, Magi is really good if you play it right. I think there's just that mentality that one's own class is always inferior. The whole, grass is greener on the other side. Losing Enchanting isn't going to warrant any major buffs, it's the removal of a trade skill, which is likely already being replaced with useful skills.

Completely untrue. Sigils absolutely screw magi over. Furthermore, unless magi becomes the only class able to use necklace of purity, it kind of screws retardation over. 

Kaie

Most classes have drawbacks, Mithridates and i'm pretty sure you have a counter measure to sigils. Also, a lot of Magi have had great success with Retardation.. are you trolling me right now? Retardation is very powerful...

Kaie

Nevermind, I see that you are messing with me. I honestly stopped reading after about 3 posts from Xith and went straight to the last page to comment. :P

Mithridates

Perhaps if binding and fortify actually did something it would be cool

Xith

Purity is currently the most powerful passive, in that it can't be separated from you, unlike harmonics, demons, (not sure about angels). Very necessary considering the nature of retardation. So the skill has to be preserved in one of the other skills when Enchantment goes.

Sigils require some management. I'm not necessarily opposed to sigil combat. The Magi has to take some damage to mushroom one when flamed, but that's a smaller gold cost for the enchanter than the secondhand flame + cube/knife your opponent uses. Magi should probably get a mushroom-esque spell when they lose the advantage of enchanting the cheapest. Something to destroy any ground sigil, relevant also to monoliths which, as stated, are a problem for brazier.

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me, Mith. Binding gives a message when broken while the fortify doesn't (or the other way). Would let you know your channels were under attack sooner.

There is a "reason mass stops adduction" just like there is a "reason shield stops staffcast", except that one has a workaround and the other doesn't. Magi are not a chasing class. Leaving your room means leaving your vibes, which means reverb and focus again. They need a means to bring the opponent(s) to their room, just like apostates need to do.

My proposed 'infuse air' would be nothing like beckon as it requires a prepped target and can't be used on enemy raid parties, for example. Also, if you infused air to negate their mass temporarily, you could make use of the currently inert GUST <dir> when overwhelmed.

Mithridates

Binding delays the time it takes for a knife to cut while fortify gets destroyed before the channel. So yeah, No way to stop knife.

Alaskar

I thought they (binding and fortify) stopped Knife Sigils altogether. I do know I've channeled repeatedly in the presence of a knife sigil and it wasn't destroyed.

 I kind of hate the idea of sigils altogether. Once upon a time, they were somewhat regulated in availability by a kind of pact among Magi and the guilds. Now they're very common, and I feel like when we divorce tradeskills entirely there will be cubes and knives in every room from Targ to Ashtan. 

Regarding hindering ability, I, again, think it's kind of where it ought to be, considering retardation is a huge equalizer against a lot of classes. Or so it seems. I know I beat someone well over 300% of my might and twice my health in it; I was careful and everything worked the way I wanted it to. Then again, I've had it go south for me a number of times too. Any further hindering would be overkill, in most situations.

Then again, we can't really hold down opponents that really want to get away, but if that means they're unable to really fight us in our vibes, then I think it's a fair trade. I mean, sure I can't really go after someone and kill them unless they feel like sticking around, but I also know that they can't really just sit in my vibes and kill me, either.

Disclaimer: I'm not the greatest combatant, and I've a lot to learn, but I do love where Magi sit, and listening to what other's say regarding Magi combat and abilities, I think it's pretty decent with only 2 main skills. I'm interested to see what a third skill will be int terms of not unbalancing the class. I'd hate to see Elementalism and Crystalism nerfed and then a third skill to make up for it. Which I think I may have mentioned in another post too, in this thread  :-/ Anyways, enough rambling.

Saeva

Oh. One thing that -would- be kind of neat for Magi is an LoS ability that is more helpful than firelash >_>
That's all.

Cause really... firelash?

Mithridates

Don't underestimate fire lash

Saeva

Well... cataclysm was supposed to be our answer to LoS but... finding 3 magi in one area? Hah.. only in Cyrene.

Xith

Someone posted a cool cata idea a couple pages ago. Let 1 magi spin but reduced to one room away for range. Then add a room for each additional magi. Best they could hope for is like 10 multi classed magi in the city at once (30 for targ) for a 10 room range. Still not as powerful as area cata and it gives credibility back as a trans skill. Wouldn't need as much hindering if we could staffcast runners adjacent.

Xith

Channeling a single element is relatively quick and I think it's got like 25% chance of destroying the sigil or something. Don't think simultaneity counts but I didn't test

Blujixapug

The problem with giving mages piety is that every faction already has mages and piety. So every faction will have piety + magepiety, gravehands + magepiety, tentacles + magepiety, or wildgrowth + magepiety. Imagine walking through that on a highway. Terrible.

Channelling elements has a chance to destroy any knife sigils on the ground in the room.

Kaie

The thing is, staffcast vs shield is in no way comparable to a fully setup retardation room. Shield can be taken down and put back up, or the opponent can move out of reach. Having an unstoppable way to summon a target back into your death-room is too cheap and ridiculously powerful.

Mithridates

Nope.

Mithridates

Saeva said:

Well... cataclysm was supposed to be our answer to LoS but... finding 3 magi in one area? Hah.. only in Cyrene.

Join Targ, and we'd have three magi on quite a bit!

Xith

Kaie said:

The thing is, staffcast vs shield is in no way comparable to a fully setup retardation room. Shield can be taken down and put back up, or the opponent can move out of reach. Having an unstoppable way to summon a target back into your death-room is too cheap and ridiculously powerful.

What part of tumble onto a monolith didn't you hear? Also adduction is still not unstoppable as it can be blocked by icewalls.

But despite Magi having decent dps potential, there are dragons and other people whom you simply cannot damage outright, which is why it comes to retardation. If they still have a high health pool, you have to both damage them and keep them hindered in retardation for an extended time. Anybody who's smart is going to be doing all they can to initiate a single tumble toward their monolith, and then Magi are left with fewer ways to secure a kill (Hint: zero).

You can slay newbs in retardation all day long, but anyone who understands what retardation does will be expecting it and looking for a way to capitalize. Every failed retardation drop means losing a few of the vibes that make it so threatening. 

But back to "unstoppable". At max infusions (6), each took 3s balance. Which means the longest one element will be infused before dropping below 3 is 12s. But only 9 given your final balance recovery. After that, 3s eq/diadem to embed retardation, which means you have 6 seconds that the mass-negation still functions without re-infusing, and your infuse balance is now effectively 4.1s, so while it's maybe smart to squeeze another one in, it will mean not afflicting or damaging in the meantime, the same decision you always face in retardation.