Magi Classleads/Skillset

Nim

Cooper said:

I've spent too much time on this already, but I feel you need it pounded into your head that no class should be focused/balanced around being able to 1v3+. That is just a god-awful idea and will never, ever be balanced.

Disagreed with this line. Imagine a world where every class was viable in X vs Y, where X was any number and Y was any number. Fifty fully artefacted monks could gank you alone, and you'd have no one but yourself to blame for your loss. It would be glorious.

Xith

I don't know how many times Cooper has been Magi, but he thinks hellfumes are hindering so... moving on...

Icewall is intended to be hindering as well as prevent snipe death, but many fighters carry a firewall ring and that prevents new icewalls from being formed. Which is why I brought up the flood fix to put out firewalls. If that were implemented, I can't say I would have any non-retardation hindering concerns.

Mithridates

I'd say a good balance would be making freeze ground like ghands, piety, and tentacles. 

Cathy

Xith said:

I don't know how many times Cooper has been Magi, but he thinks hellfumes are hindering so... moving on...

Icewall is intended to be hindering as well as prevent snipe death, but many fighters carry a firewall ring and that prevents new icewalls from being formed. Which is why I brought up the flood fix to put out firewalls. If that were implemented, I can't say I would have any non-retardation hindering concerns.

It causes the person to pass out from hunger, that is quite a hindrance.

Also, what gives the right to have ice walls up for sure? If someone firewalls all the direction, it can work in your favour too, also, you have the option of just changing location and focusing vibes.

Cooper

Okay. Not going to even bother reading this thread anymore. You're ignorant of what your class can do.

Kafziel

Mithridates said:

I'd say a good balance would be making freeze ground like ghands, piety, and tentacles. 

lolno

Bracers of Frost: 1000 credits
   - Allows you to:
        1) FREEZE GROUND - Cover the ground in ice.
        2) FREEZE <person> - Freeze an opponent.
        3) CAST DEEPFREEZE - Deepfreeze all your enemies that are in the
           same location with you, if you could otherwise interact with
           that person (taking into account astralform, phase,
           blackwind, and the like).
        4) POINT <bracers> <direction> - Create an icewall to block the
           direction.

Cathy

Also, no balance loss for freeze is fine, since retardation makes it take 1s to even TRY

Mithridates

Yuck. 

Xith

Since I have 8 hours per day at work to jot Achaea ideas on sticky notes (yep, I'm dedicated)...

Final stab at multi-reflection. Keep in mind that a reflection is an illusory copy of the Magi, making opponents think there are more of you and hit the wrong one (a la Tom Hiddleston).

Mirage Vibration: Stores a mirage every 22 seconds (max. 3) for each enemy in the room. ABSORB MIRAGE to consume the vibration and gain its stored reflections. Absorbing takes 4.5 eq. In 1v1, it would take more time than casting a single reflection while consuming the crystals and requiring respinning to use again.

Whirlwind: Temporary cyclone in the room about 50% longer than a hailstorm, gives a 25% chance for arrows fired in or out to miss.

This is an alternative to Windwall.

Heat: Currently prevents freeze effects in the room. Does nothing, since no class uses freeze outside of Retardation and once retardation is down, the Magi wants to deepfreeze, only a retardation buffer. These effects are fine, but what about causing it to amplify fire/burn/efreeti/firewalls in some way?

Thunderstorm: Overhead lightning storm (1 per room), strikes someone in the room with lightning (~400) at random, repeats 4 times at ~3s each. The catch is that the caster can be hit as well. Therefore, in 1v1, 50% chance of damaging oneself on each hit. In 1 vs 2, wiser to use at 33%

Kuy

Listen.  I've written and erased a post to this thread four five times now because I can't seem to not be mean.

Xith said:

Heat: Currently prevents freeze effects in the room. Does nothing, since no class uses freeze outside of Retardation and once retardation is down, the Magi wants to deepfreeze, only a retardation buffer. These effects are fine, but what about causing it to amplify fire/burn/efreeti/firewalls in some way?

This is verifiably incorrect.  I'll let the people that use freeze outside of retardation tell you why.

If anything, this should show that your scope of battlefield knowledge is not wide enough to properly suggest sweeping changes to a class.

Xith said:

Questions for anyone...

I know that "aflame" causes timed burning damage. Does it have any other effects?

Freeze has 2 levels.

Shivering is the first, and causes disrupt periodically.

Does Frozen have a specific effect? My testing buddies last time seemed to function just fine with it. Is it just to add an extra level before shivering can be cured?

This is another example of what many people are trying to say here, man.  You just don't have the prerequisite knowledge to be suggesting these sorts of changes while continuously arguing against the people who are pointing out the flaws with your suggestions.

This is the sort of background knowledge you should have already had.  If not, you should have researched.  This means one of two things:  you're either ignorant or being lazy about this.  Both of these can be fixed.

And no, that wasn't being mean.  That was being blunt.

Xith

Kuy said:

Listen.  I've written and erased a post to this thread four five times now because I can't seem to not be mean.

Xith said:

Heat: Currently prevents freeze effects in the room. Does nothing, since no class uses freeze outside of Retardation and once retardation is down, the Magi wants to deepfreeze, only a retardation buffer. These effects are fine, but what about causing it to amplify fire/burn/efreeti/firewalls in some way?

This is verifiably incorrect.  I'll let the people that use freeze outside of retardation tell you why.

If anything, this should show that your scope of battlefield knowledge is not wide enough to properly suggest sweeping changes to a class.

I've seen Serpents bite occasionally, I believe to relapse it, and if an apostate wants to disrupt after a lock. Am I missing something? Oh that's right.. you were going to let other people tell me. I'm glad you posted cause otherwise they would never have told me. I liked your post cause there's no slow clap button.

Kuy

Xith said:

Kuy said:

Listen.  I've written and erased a post to this thread four five times now because I can't seem to not be mean.

Xith said:

Heat: Currently prevents freeze effects in the room. Does nothing, since no class uses freeze outside of Retardation and once retardation is down, the Magi wants to deepfreeze, only a retardation buffer. These effects are fine, but what about causing it to amplify fire/burn/efreeti/firewalls in some way?

This is verifiably incorrect.  I'll let the people that use freeze outside of retardation tell you why.

If anything, this should show that your scope of battlefield knowledge is not wide enough to properly suggest sweeping changes to a class.

I've seen Serpents bite occasionally, I believe to relapse it, and if an apostate wants to disrupt after a lock. Am I missing something? Oh that's right.. you were going to let other people tell me. I'm glad you posted cause otherwise they would never have told me. I liked your post cause there's no slow clap button.

---------------------------------------------WHY DO QUOTES BREAK ON ME ALL THE DAMN TIME--------------------------------------------------

The answer is in the AB files of other classes.  I'm not here to do your research for you, dude.  You're the one suggesting this stuff, so you're the one who should have the information.

Penwize

Kuy's right.  Not only do other classes use freezing, but two classes rely on it for their kill: freeze pound requires frozen solid, used by both sentinels and druids.  Further to that and what you mentioned, blue dragons use their breath's passive freeze to get a shiver against prone targets, keeping them prone for slightly longer. Freeze is a good way to add disrupt to a truelock for any of the locking classes.  I've even seen dragons use bracer freezes to hinder while doing new fancy dragon locking.

Kuy

I'm sorry, I'm new to this.

Is this where I "slow clap?"

I almost removed this.  I didn't, because I don't like it when someone comes all at me being an asshole.

Blujixapug

Hellfumes do hinder - if they cause hunger to the point of causing unconsciousness. (Hellfumes still cause hunger, right? Such a stupid mechanic.) Most of the things Cooper listed are impractical outside retardation. Transfix, for example, is mostly useless for a class that has no way to pressure herb balance. But they do stand in the way of mages getting anything new. If you could pressure herb balance with new afflictions, then transfix, plague, and disorientation all suddenly become far stronger. So anything new needs to take into account the old.

I would be incredibly surprised if they further emphasised mages as a solo-vs-group class. That's not really how they design or balance classes, not any more. Even support classes like druid and priest are balanced primarily around 1v1 parity. Mages already have the best solo-vs-group potential in the game, with vibes, hellfumes, hailstorm, holocaust, and most of their admittedly crappy room-wide hindering all being as effective against multiple enemies as against a single target, so I just can't see them getting more in that area.

Is better solo-vs-group potential really what you most desire? If it was my class, I'd prefer to get more diverse, viable ways to kill a single target, since 1v1s happen more often.

Xith

Penwize said:

Kuy's right.  Not only do other classes use freezing, but two classes rely on it for their kill: freeze pound requires frozen solid, used by both sentinels and druids.  Further to that and what you mentioned, blue dragons use their breath's passive freeze to get a shiver against prone targets, keeping them prone for slightly longer. Freeze is a good way to add disrupt to a truelock for any of the locking classes.  I've even seen dragons use bracer freezes to hinder while doing new fancy dragon locking.

I had to go to work after my last post, but while I was working I remembered freezepound. But I also remembered there are like zero metamorphs to fight. I really hope Concoctions gets replaced by some neat stuff, and probably some kind of groves rework, but separate thread. I also realized blue dragons, but the vibe's uselessness wasn't the whole point of it, it was more about having other uses so you could use it in more than that 3% of all combat interactions. Could cause more burn damage or something.

Accipiter

It is a flavour vibe, something new magi can use to play with their skills and not get in trouble. Every class is full of them, just ignore it, not try to make it something awesome.

Penwize

Accipiter said:

It is a flavour vibe, something new magi can use to play with their skills and not get in trouble. Every class is full of them, just ignore it, not try to make it something awesome.

It's more than just that actually.  It's a situational ability that can be used to counter a couple of specific class strategies very effectively.  It's similar to how some classes have dampen, or MIND SCYTHE (wtf even is that thing doing there?), or any of the other direct counters.  On top of that, it's also a vibe you can use as a buffer against retardation's vibe eating.  It's not always going to be amazing, but it's there doing its thing if you want it, and sometimes you do.

Seftin

Just want to point out that the help file says 'perhaps' the best class for multi person combat, and they are. Whilst each class may have a few skills that hit multiple people (arc, rites, tentacles, chaos rays, vengeance etc) magi has a whole skillset resolved around it (crystalism) backed up by skills that work very well in retardation (see freeze ground, deep freeze, stormhammer, hailstones, reflection, erode etc). As a magi using purely retardation you can control a room, whole rooms and afflict and damage up to 20 enemies at once in it. You can prep and break into retardation and all you are missing is a finisher that's not overly powerful. All of your posts have been things of tremendous power when you consider the control you have over enemies already.

Xith

Seftin said:

Just want to point out that the help file says 'perhaps' the best class for multi person combat, and they are. Whilst each class may have a few skills that hit multiple people (arc, rites, tentacles, chaos rays, vengeance etc) magi has a whole skillset resolved around it (crystalism) backed up by skills that work very well in retardation (see freeze ground, deep freeze, stormhammer, hailstones, reflection, erode etc). As a magi using purely retardation you can control a room, whole rooms and afflict and damage up to 20 enemies at once in it. You can prep and break into retardation and all you are missing is a finisher that's not overly powerful. All of your posts have been things of tremendous power when you consider the control you have over enemies already.

Haven't suggested anything to buff retardation except making adduction relevant and reducing the arrow problem.
Both of magi's trans skills penalize the Mage equally already. Vibes help if you spun them first but other classes have passive offenses too. And if you had a good number of people there's a chance you have one of those classes already in the room. Adding external snipers interferes with one of our only two combat strategies. Both of which rely on staying in the same room.

Alaskar

I think, first off, that we need to identify the direction we want to see Magi take, as a class. We've established that they have great potential in 1v1 combat, but we want to increase their utility in group combat, without making them OP in 1v1. So how do we address that? Second, I feel that if enchantment is to be replaced by a third skill, I'd like to see something that combines elementalism and crystalism in a manner that either encourages group utility or 1v1 while simultaneously discouraging the other. 

In keeping things balanced, I think a distinction should be made in the way skills are to be used by concentrating on which resource they drain more of: willpower vs mana. Perhaps the heavy hitting, mass damage attacks should require a scaled amount of willpower, while passive attacks would require more mana drain. This means that the Magi must choose between an all out sort of stance or a defensive fight of attrition. A

So, a few ideas and things to think about. They're just notions, and vague ones at that.

First, I hate the idea of elemental specializations. This is not Lusternia, nor is it Avatar, as much as I appreciate the series. I mean, what if I just want to be a master of the FOUR elements? Now that that's out of the way, some of those aforementioned ideas:

Multiple reflections: I like this one, because of its utility. But how to keep it balanced? Well, a willpower and mana drain that scales with each reflection is a good start, but I also think there should be a constant WP drain for maintaining the reflections. I mean, light isn't self sustaining, so why should reflections be. There's also the idea of a "mirage" vibe; what if for multiple reflections, a vibe is required for them to be cast? What if they could only be cast on the Magi himself, or only persist on others if he remains in the room with them, to maintain the illusion? Perhaps that mirage vibe would have a chance of creating reflections on the enemy, as well. Many, many ways this could go and be made into a useful, strategic option for different play styles.

Energise: either less damage to enemies, greater health regen, or something along those lines Or just not let it destroy the vibe. Usefulness scales with groups, but what I don't care for too much is that it focuses on increasing the defense of the Magi in group combat, which I don't think is fair. The Magi should be a force multiplier in offensive actions, sure, but he shouldn't be able to waltz in and tank 8 aggressors because he energised for 8 million health or some such.

More elementalism. The idea of a wall of air is genius, but only if it works both ways. Inbound arrows and outbound arrows, friend or foe. Another note on increased elemental abilities, why can I not summon stone walls? Eve if they were a smashable version, it kind of makes sense to have them. Also, I think a type of fireshield, akin to chargeshield, would be a great move in the right direction, as it would vastly improve the viability of holocaust. And make it able to be cast on others, in favor of balance. And I love the idea of Light stripping everyone in the rooms blindness. Including the casters.

As for more synergy between crystalism and elementalism, and in favor of group utility, how about vibes that increase the effects of certain elementalism attacks? For example a vibe that lets you target four individuals with stormhammer? Maybe a vibe that is the opposite of heat, which increases the effects of deepfreeze? Perhaps a set of vibes that increase susceptibility to certain damage types while increasing resistance to others? And not just in an elemental sense, but in regards to cutting and blunt, etc, venoms, etc.

As it stands, Magi tend to, from my observations, trans Elementalism, Cystalism, and then weaponry to have a viable instakill. I think whichever third skill comes in should try to exclude the idea of rapier-wielding magi, as this, somehow, doesn't fit into their mythos. But I'd hate to see a third skill show up and reduce magi to afflicting people and such. Right now, I love how unique Magi are. We have crystalism, one of the few truly unique skills in the game, as well as a set of abilities which focus on room dominance, group targeting, and almost pure damage output. Should we be able to survive two or three attackers at once? Of course not. Should we be a force worthy of consideration when combined with a team of skilled fighters Absolutely.

A few other ideas/suggestions, I'd love to see Cataclysm work for only one Magi, increasing his range by 1 room, and then scaling with the number of Magi up to its full power of 3 rooms/3 Magi. I think the concept of forcing a magi to choose between high outright damage output on a single target, or useful, group utility multiple target damage is another thing to keep in mind when thinking of alterations to the class.

And lets face it, it is in no one's best interest to create an overpowered class. What fun is it to walk into a room, hammer four people like it's nothing, and be done with it? I modded the hell out of Skyrim, put in God mode, and in two days I was so done with that game I haven't played it since. I love the subtleties of Achaea, the well balanced (for the most-part) combat, and the thought required for most things. I''d hate to see the uniqueness of Magi be in any way diminished. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Xith

I like most of the ideas, particularly cataclysm gaining range per magi. I hadn't thought of that.

Also having supporting vibes is good but they can't be full duration because it would add to the full vibe set as retardation buffers.

Revisiting stasis vibe, make it so only one can exist at a time, so the magi can only keep one set preserved.

The issue with Energise is that its secondary ability is almost entirely useless. Against one opponent, you build like 30 health per tick and then absorbing it blows up the vibe. Hardly worth using. Against multiple it doesn't build fast enough to make a difference whether it stays or not. I'd like to see te damage cut in half and the health stored increased to either 50% or 100% depending on whether the vibe is still consumed.
It should be repurposed as defensive, since we have plenty of damage.

Penwize

I have to say, I'm not really sure what's up with all this clamoring for getting Magi group-oriented buffs.  There's a reason they're currently targetted first in most melee engagements in raids/skirmishes.  They're already the some of the strongest forces in group combat, not only for retardation but for their other vibes, for cata, for holo, and for their extremely high damage output.  Why do they need more of that?  I mean, I'm all for adding cool new abilities and such, but do Magi really need more at this point?

Xith

It's more solo vs group oriented. Haven't really been suggesting damage buffs.

At this point it's more about utility in situations that range from 1 to 3 opponents. The wind wall is more about helping negate range so that melee rushes are more encouraged, as well as preventing retardation arrow spam in non-raid situations (from both sides).

The multi-target damage buffs have not been suggested in any way that changes the current damage output, since no stormhammer buffs have been suggested and it's the highest group damage you can do besides holo. For example, multi-target Lightning would be less effective than stormhammer in a raid situation. The change was to have the option.

Multi-erode is in regards to a current bug (that admin dismissed) where rebounding off Stormhammer's second targets' shields adds to the eq recovery of stormhammer.

So it's no more group oriented than anything currently is, except in small-scale survivability, which tends to revolve around retardation leveling the playing field. Unfortunately, it's not immediate and if you drop retard at the wrong time you get double- or triple-screwed. I had ideas about reflections but normal reflect is already useful. Energise is the main beef because it's got potential to be more than just another stack of passive damage. If you want to actually make use of stormhammer in a non-raid situation, you need to be able to survive the same three targets you're attacking.

People are nitpicking about the help file being old or outdated but it really isn't, because the same percentage of multi-target skills exist in magi that still make it the dominant 1 vs X class, which -- yes -- was intended in its design. Haven't heard admin dispute that yet, so until it's clarified, yes.

In one scenario (with my proposed fix), you could focus your vibes onto a group of 12 enemies with new Energise in effect. It deals 130 or so (instead of current 275) and stores 65 health per enemy. You ABSORB 780 health when you choose to do it, not even as powerful as a priestess Tarot, but it only procs every 11 seconds, and having been a jester previously, I can tell you that with 12 enemies, you don't survive 11 seconds of damage if everyone's focusing you unless you have escapes, which magi don't have.

Last thing to note in this scenario is that the enemy team will have just as many Magi as you do regardless of the faction, especially with multiclass. So in a 3 vs 3 or 7 vs 7 or 20 vs 20, the same factors that applied previously still apply, except your magi can maybe get half a priestess every 11 seconds. Big whoop.

Hasar

I like energise the way it is. A small heal, but can be used in pretty much any situation in terms of eq/balance/hindering, and since you'll be on the defensive when you want to use it, you won't be needing the damage from it anyways.

It's a small, unique class sort of thing, and I like it that way. Not overpowering, and still useful.

Xith

Literally every number I just gave says otherwise. 30 health every 11 seconds in 1v1. In comparison, a boar tattoo grants +230 every 10 seconds. The only time it's overpowered is if you charge it up on like 10 of your friends til it's got 3000+ health and then go fight a monk so you can use it right after they bbt.

Hasar

I got healed 594 hp after 20 or so procs, and my max hp is 4300.

And healed 590 hp after 10 or so procs on two people. Seems like enough to me?

Each proc is around 11-11.5s, so that's less than 4 minutes for 20 procs, and less than 2 minutes if you have 2 enemies being drained by it.

That's a fair amount, really.

Xith

Sounds about right... except how is that ever useful? Requires 4 minutes of procs, or 2 minutes while fighting two people? It's not like a game ending skill, the point of it is more to stay IN the game, which against 2 enemies may be a little tricky for 2 minutes.

(Btw I was blending the values with Palp, my mistake) It actually only does about 179 damage and stores about 18 or something. I'm not really sure exactly what the damage or stored health is calculated from but I'd rather see the damage cut down and healing brought up somewhat. It's never going to be a spammable heal like vigour, hands, or priestess, but for example if I wanted to heal an extra boar every 1 or 2 procs while fighting 3 people, that would be more in line.

So about 80 per person would be (x3) 240 health. Probably a little too frequent but not by much. Somewhere around ~40, give or take for resistances that I'm not including, because Harmony offsets things slightly.

Tesha

This isn't a line of thought that is going to sway any ACC members. No class will be balanced around fighting 3 people at once. Magi is really strong in its current form already. Aim enchantment replacement ideas at flavour and convenience like being able to rift sigils or something.

Shecks

Have retardation vibe present in a room either stop, or delay (with a warning) incoming projectiles.