Magi Classleads/Skillset

Xith

@Sena Things that are useful against 1 person would make them effectively useful against 1 out of 3 people at least.

The thing about multi-reflect is exactly what I said there, takes 6 seconds and every class can counter it within those 6 seconds (serpent as a possible exception). It's hardly a buff as much as just an option, but admittedly whimsical and based on useless reflection counts.

The holocaust/energise referred to energise having some use and being able to offset multi holocausts.

@Kafziel That's ultimately for the garden to decide, but:

Palpitation/Dissipate, Energise, Hailstorm, Holocaust, Stormhammer, Dissonance, Crystalforest, Hellfumes

Deepfreeze, a few other vibes

It's tailored for multiple opponents, as it has been. All that damage that is equally displaced across multiple enemies. But yes, it's listed in the help file, via original intention. 

"Perhaps more than just about any other class, a magus has the

ability to attack multiple opponents at once."

Combat has evolved though, and the class has fallen behind in that one category. Retardation does minimize the overwhelming effect of fighting 3 people, with vibes temporarily slowing their offense down, but their number one goal is to tumble out and shoot you. Magi also have Grounding, emphasizing another trait of the class which is in-room combat and room control. So yes they are designed to build a dangerous killroom that should protect them against an extra person or two.

Frankly the energise and arrow fixes would be sufficient.

Nim

Xith said:

So I want to narrow my solutions down by readdressing their respective problems. Again, I'm assuming 1 vs 3 viability. If you're wholeheartedly against that, I guess say why, and explain what Magi are supposed to become instead.

The problem with buffs to 1v3 viability is that the necessarily also buff group combat or raiding in general. If we go under the presumption magi are already strong raiders, this would necessitate debuffs to other group combat features.

The arrow thing is probably the best idea, given that it constitutes as a buff and a debuff, and thus a shift in focus (which is what you're saying you really want) rather than just getting stronger, but I feel like ranged combat is such a natural counter to retardation that reducing it might be too strong of a buff. I could be mistaken on that account though.

Xith said:

The thing about multi-reflect is exactly what I said there, takes 6 seconds and every class can counter it within those 6 seconds (serpent as a possible exception). It's hardly a buff as much as just an option, but admittedly whimsical and based on useless reflection counts.

I could see giving everyone max reflections prior to a rush being a pretty strong tactic. It could potentially counter or outright negate room defenses such as totems or retardation traps, so I wouldn't sell the power of that idea short just because the equilibrium cost makes it ineffective in melee.

Hasar

Magi is fine. Move on please. Only problem is that some duels turn into sigil wars, but meh.

Whatever ideas you have, you can stick with them, that's fine. Just submit them to classleads or something.

Cathy

Xith said:

So yes they are designed to build a dangerous killroom that should protect them against an extra person or two.

How exactly do you expect a single person to kill someone who is able to survive three people?

Alrena

1) Wouldn't it be possible to create an instantkill that either does not work in retardation, or is actively hindered by it? For example... taking that idea from Aetolia, what if retardation stripped those effects much like it eats vibes? I don't want something to amplify our retardation strategy in this, as behead can work just fine, but a real alternative strategy that is completely separate from it.

2) Would be kinda neat if we had an ability to temporarily 'disable' sigils in adjacent rooms, or in the room it is cast. Short effect, to stop boring sigil wars and require a bit more strategy on the opponent's part, as I find it incredibly difficult to keep an opponent in retardation who will tumble on the first break, to a sigil'd room. (May be my own ineptitude, further study required?)

This could also be a more effective counter to cube and knife sigils (temporarily). Alternatively, please remove knife sigils, thanks.

3) Other than that, some convenience things like storing our vibes would be nice. Flavour would be great too, choosing an element although the only thing that's different is how it looks. I'd like that!

Sena

Cathy said:

Xith said:

So yes they are designed to build a dangerous killroom that should protect them against an extra person or two.

How exactly do you expect a single person to kill someone who is able to survive three people?

By having your abilities actually scale in effectiveness to the number of enemies you're fighting at once. Stormhammer-like abilities and just multi-target attacks in general (vibes, deep freeze, holocaust), for example. Being able to hit 3 targets at once helps when fighting 3 enemies, without giving any additional benefit against a single enemy. Xith's proposed energize change is a good defensive example. The more enemies you have in the room with you, the faster it will absorb health for you to heal yourself with, so it's stronger against 3 enemies than it is against 1.

Kuy

Alrena said:

2) Would be kinda neat if we had an ability to temporarily 'disable' sigils in adjacent rooms, or in the room it is cast. Short effect, to stop boring sigil wars and require a bit more strategy on the opponent's part, as I find it incredibly difficult to keep an opponent in retardation who will tumble on the first break, to a sigil'd room. (May be my own ineptitude, further study required?)

This could also be a more effective counter to cube and knife sigils (temporarily). Alternatively, please remove knife sigils, thanks.

Eh... I'm really leery of this.  It has way farther reaches than just solo magi, allowing a magi to run in, deactivate a sigil in an enemy's room, and allow them to be instantly braziered into your totem/vibes/harms for quick deathing.

As for the solo implications, and please dear gods correct me if I'm wrong, sigils are pretty much the counter to Magi combat.  In my head, Magi isn't a class that's meant to just traipse about and be a killing machine.  They're scholars of the elements, overcoming their enemies with wit and strategy.  It makes sense for a combat-oriented scholar to have the need to preen away their enemy's advantages while simultaneously stacking the fight in their odds.  It's really neat to think about.

That, and you can always step out, mushroom the monolith adjacent (or drop retardation there, too), before finishing the prep.  Though, I'm assuming this is what you mean by "sigil wars."  I remember watching Hasar duel someone one time, though.  Whenever they tumbled, he would just preemptively follow and focus his vibes as they finished.

(I'm saying all of this from my naive perspective in hopes that someone more experiences will help me understand better.) 

Xith

Sena answered Cathy's question (my phone just tried to call her Sean).

I don't presume that magi are strong raiders at all. A couple reasons:
Raid combat is rarely melee
People tend to offensively remove their own reflections after you guard them
Cataclysm suffers from magi not being as popular as actual raid classes

Reflecting your 8 buddies with 3 each sounds super easy except that they have to work with you and stop shrugging them off.
Same with retard. If a single faction learned to capitalize on retardation and perfect the melee rush, then magi would be more raid applicable.

Anyway I've settled on a few classleads for actual submission. Will move onto 3rd skill ideas later today. Possibly new topic.

Cooper

My post was not a troll.

Pretty much every assumption you've made in this thread is wrong.

Magi are already the best 1vX class.

Magi are amazingly useful in raids and group fighting even without the use of retardation and cata. Add those in and they are beasts.

More than one faction has learned to capitalize on retardation.

Just because ~350 year old help file says something vague about a class that was supposed to entice people to join a class does not mean that entire class needs buffs 350 years later when they are in a fine position of balance, with maybe just a few very small tweaks needed right now.

The changes you're suggesting are large buffs that are not necessary and have no reasoning behind them other than that you personally think that Magi should be able to 1v3 because that's what the help file says (hint: you're wrong).

You have had multiple high/top level combatants in more than one thread telling you that you are wrong, that your buffs aren't in the right direction, necessary, or balanced.

I've spent too much time on this already, but I feel you need it pounded into your head that no class should be focused/balanced around being able to 1v3+. That is just a god-awful idea and will never, ever be balanced.

Santar

I think the stormhammer thing where the 2nd and 3rd targets being shielded affects your EQ should be changed.

Not like SH is a particularly strong ability, and that change isn't going to make it overpowered.

Xith

"High-level" combatants have varying opinions.
Regardless of how much beast you see in magi, they are stale, and the "multi-threat" concept is what makes them unique whether you see it or not.
It's damage based, not multi-afflicting or multi-instakills or anything.

It's already coded into the flavor and abilities like stormhammer and energize. It just hasn't been looked at in 350 years. It's not the Help file that is outdated, it's the abilities. Maybe @Sarapis or whoever created magi can say otherwise.

It's not so awful to expect one class to have the limited ability to counter the X vs 1 (X attackers) that revolves around group damaging the same way. E.g. Raid format.

Like people of varying stances have pointed out, none of the skills affect 3 people any differently than they affect just 1. There isn't unbalancing in these ideas.

Cathy

Just wanted to point out a monk can combo three people and mind command a fourth. Can they get multi-person combat buffs please?

Cathy

Oh, and a serpent can hypno everyone and set them all off at once, more buffs plz.

Cathy

To be more realistic though, if a class is designed to be 1v3+ then they should have very, very little viability in 1v1. You shouldn't get both.

As per the retardation thing where people can get out and snipe you, it's a very powerful vibe, and you shouldn't get a free/easy pass in it beyond KNOWING when you're going to do it.

Jarrod

Magi is already the class best able to attack multiple enemies in a meaningful way, on multiple fronts.

It does not need further bonuses to fill this role, it already fills it. Any ideas to buff the class in 1vX inherently makes it stronger in every other situation, is completely unnecessary.

As many people have talked about, alternate kill routes are the main idea to look at for Magi, so they aren't a class dependent on Retardation in 1v1 to kill artefacted opponents.

As an aside: Your rules in the initial post don't mean anything. You can post whatever you want, it doesn't mean it actually applies. Especially when it comes to things being overpowered, it's not necessary to point out every overpowered thing, especially when pretty much every thing is, which is a good indication you don't know enough about class balance to suggest large changes to any class.

Aegoth

As strong as Magi is, I will point out that its sister class, Sylvan, is miles beyond what power a Magi has. Not only is their damage superior (Lothiac does 33% max health damage thornrends every 2 seconds, that also prep limbs and deal a venom), they can bypass parry very easily and have an instakill that is very reliable with a good setup. Along with superior hindering and utility, it's pretty much the dream PK class right now, and it's surprising that there aren't more sylvans PKers. Just wanna throw that out there.

Cathy

Aegoth said:

As strong as Magi is, I will point out that its sister class, Sylvan, is miles beyond what power a Magi has. Not only is their damage superior (Lothiac does 33% max health damage thornrends every 2 seconds, that also prep limbs and deal a venom), they can bypass parry very easily and have an instakill that is very reliable with a good setup. Along with superior hindering and utility, it's pretty much the dream PK class right now, and it's surprising that there aren't more sylvans PKers. Just wanna throw that out there.

It is also restricted to a single faction or rogue. Magi can go anywhere. Also, retardation.

Achilles

What damage type is thornrend, magic?  How is Lothiac scaling it so much?

Cooper

You don't see many Sylvan fighters because only Eleusis can have them.

Santar

Didn't they recently change thornrend to scale with INT instead of STR?

Jarrod

Santar said:

Didn't they recently change thornrend to scale with INT instead of STR?

As of last October yeah, combined with Viridian form giving a bonus Int instead of bonus Str.

Rom

Scales with INT now yes (and Viridian gives +2 int in place of +2 strength now, of course), and is subsequently affected by Collar too. Deals magic damage.

Kafziel

It's magic type damage, and yes it scales to int

DOUBLE NINJA'D

Saeva

Also, just because Magi can go anywhere.... that has nothing to do with combat balance. Sorry.

Cathy

Saeva said:

Also, just because Magi can go anywhere.... that has nothing to do with combat balance. Sorry.

It does, it means that sylvan's OPness can't (usually can't anyway) be combined with say, vivisect etc.

Mithridates

Honestly, the biggest problem I face fighting as a mage is the lack of hindering. 

Cooper

For the (third time I think), you have the following abilities at your disposal to hinder people:

icewall

freeze ground

transfix

retardation

staffstrike limbs

mounted blocking

hellfumes (kind of)

disorientation

lullaby

plague

You have more hinder than a lot of other classes. Try being a monk and keeping someone in the room.

Edit: To be more nice - the reason why I keep posting that is because no one can hold someone down completely to kill them if the person wants to run away or not fight. You as a Magi have more ways to control that than nearly every other class, and a lot of it is set it and forget it stuff.

Mithridates

Cooper said:

icewall

tumble, firelash ring

freeze ground

spam a direction. Freeze ground doesn't take bal or anything

transfix

lol. Useless against anyone but an apostate outside of retardation

retardation

retardation itself doesn't hinder. That's ignoring the fact that most people pretty much automatically tumble whenever they see the vibe being spun.

staffstrike limbs

Probably the only way to do it. doesn't stop tumble

mounted blocking

so many ways to dismount someone

hellfumes (kind of)

wut

disorientation

pretty much automatically cured

lullaby

lol no

plague

for the one aff that hinders, touch tree;apply mending;stand;gtfo

Jarrod

Obviously they set it and forget it.

Then they post to forums about not having hinder because they forgot it.

@Cooper it's really pretty simple.

Xith

Jarrod said:

Magi is already the class best able to attack multiple enemies in a meaningful way, on multiple fronts.

It does not need further bonuses to fill this role, it already fills it. Any ideas to buff the class in 1vX inherently makes it stronger in every other situation, is completely unnecessary.

As many people have talked about, alternate kill routes are the main idea to look at for Magi, so they aren't a class dependent on Retardation in 1v1 to kill artefacted opponents.

As an aside: Your rules in the initial post don't mean anything. You can post whatever you want, it doesn't mean it actually applies. Especially when it comes to things being overpowered, it's not necessary to point out every overpowered thing, especially when pretty much every thing is, which is a good indication you don't know enough about class balance to suggest large changes to any class.

In a creative/productive environment as the topic is intended, yes you do need to back up claims of "overpowered", the same way classleads require a problem stated. 

Unless all combat is converted to prepping and locking, Magi will continue to focus on damage and hindering. Amplifying or adding conditional damage is possible, although something like bbt would not work for Magi damage because "prep" is too easy in retardation. Therefore hindering.

Extending abilities to 2 extra people does not overpower raids in the slightest, especially considering -- like I said -- raid activity is seldom melee.

Complaining about Magi being factionless means everyone will gain whatever buffs they are given, not to mention the fact that multiclass is coming. And two people have now foolishly compared the suggestions with giving multi-combat ability to 1v1 classes.

"Perhaps more than just about any other class, a magus..." 

The multicombat issue really comes down to energise and existing/new skills like it. If you think a larger health pool per tick is going to stop 8-12 enemies from killing you in a raid, I don't know what kind of raids you're in, but the ticks are slow.

Last thing to note, I've already conceded Vacuum despite nobody understanding it, Adduction being the better candidate. Conceded Cataclysm as well for its supposedly unfair reach for 1 magi.

Multi-reflect was conceded, but I'll pitch a last version of it anyway. And the "majority" of my suggestions actually met few arguments because they are small changes. I don't know why people are pretending they were "all" overpowered.