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  • LaedhaLaedha Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jiraishin said:
    Actually got to disagree with you on that one. It should either be "a twisted, rose gold wedding band" or "a twisted wedding band of rose gold". "A wedding band of twisted rose gold" is indeed inferior. The bottom line, though, is that 'twisted' refers to the band and not the rose gold, so you need a comma.

    Other than "a black, cotton shirt" the worst appearance I've ever ended up with due to the Crafters' Guild guidelines was "a bracelet of glinting, ruby, sand grains." Those two designs are both from around the same time. It was RL years ago so my memory is fuzzy, but I think there were new guidelines then that might have been tweaked since, and I'm honestly tempted to typo that design in hopes of it being changed. Or ISSUE ME if that would be more efficient. Substandard examined descs are one thing, but I can't expect people to buy a design with an obviously flawed appearance.
    Nope. Shape comes before color and material in the order of adjectives (the one @Nazihk posted), so it doesn't take a comma. Would you also put a comma in "a thick yellow rope?" Those examples are exactly the same and it doesn't have to do with whether or not twisted refers to the band or to the gold. Not to try to throw credentials around to shut people down without debate, but I'm an English teacher with a literature degree and 6 graduate hours in grammar and usage. That example does not require a comma. 


    AereidhnaDochitha
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2018
    Yes I would comma "a thick, yellow rope" because that says "a thick AND yellow rope"

    Whereas you would not say "a twisted AND rose gold wedding band", so no comma (You WOULD say "a twisted, yellow wedding band")

    Rose gold is a noun adjunct while yellow is staunchly an adjective so they will not necessarily be treated comparibly
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    JiraishinAereidhna
  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dupre said:
    Nazihk said:
    The problem with commas in the shortdesc is that when you LOOK at somebody their clothing is in a list that is separated by commas. So a "short, lovely skirt" ends up looking something like "She is wearing a necklace, a shirt, a bracelet, a short, lovely skirt, and black boots."

    config clothesline on
    That's a pretty drastic solution. Adventurers wear a -lot- of clothes. You'd have to scroll up to see all of them in some cases, let alone their description or anything else that's happening.

    He is wearing:
     a durable suit of eastern scale mail
     a black sniper's jacket
     a black cotton shirt
     comfortable black trousers
     a belt of sturdy black leather
     black military boots
     dashing black gloves
     a clawed gauntlet
     a silver bow-and-arrow brooch
     a clawed gauntlet
     an amulet of lustrous argentine hues
    Weapon holders:
     a serpentine thigh scabbard
     a studded leather baldric
     an ebon quiver with silvery accents
     a slender wrist sheath of black and gold
     a scorched bone sheath
     a steel chain backstrap
     a beltloop of bone shards
     a dragonbone scabbard
     a fluvial silver belthook
    Containers:
     a wyvernskin pack
     a polished glass scroll case
     a softened leather combat satchel
     a black knapsack
     a sleek velvet pouch
    Jewellery:
     2 earrings of Sinope through your left ear
    Misc:
     an amulet of heroism
     a threatening, miasmic essence
     an ivory-inlaid portrait locket
     a yellowed war horn of cracked ivory
     a pair of eagle's wings
     a shimmering orange fire opal pendant of burnished gold

    ...And that's with the armband and the resist rings hidden.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I assumed by "readers" he meant screenreaders
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  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Laedha said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Actually got to disagree with you on that one. It should either be "a twisted, rose gold wedding band" or "a twisted wedding band of rose gold". "A wedding band of twisted rose gold" is indeed inferior. The bottom line, though, is that 'twisted' refers to the band and not the rose gold, so you need a comma.

    Other than "a black, cotton shirt" the worst appearance I've ever ended up with due to the Crafters' Guild guidelines was "a bracelet of glinting, ruby, sand grains." Those two designs are both from around the same time. It was RL years ago so my memory is fuzzy, but I think there were new guidelines then that might have been tweaked since, and I'm honestly tempted to typo that design in hopes of it being changed. Or ISSUE ME if that would be more efficient. Substandard examined descs are one thing, but I can't expect people to buy a design with an obviously flawed appearance.
    Nope. Shape comes before color and material in the order of adjectives (the one @Nazihk posted), so it doesn't take a comma. Would you also put a comma in "a thick yellow rope?" Those examples are exactly the same and it doesn't have to do with whether or not twisted refers to the band or to the gold. Not to try to throw credentials around to shut people down without debate, but I'm an English teacher with a literature degree and 6 graduate hours in grammar and usage. That example does not require a comma. 


    Firstly, the usage order isn't the issue here-- twisted should come before 'rose gold', but it should also take a comma. 
    Secondly, 'rose gold' isn't color and material, just material: rose gold is a type of gold. Because 'rose gold' is essentially a two-word adjective (where 'rose' modifies 'gold' but not 'band') this design is in particular need of a comma between 'twisted' and 'rose gold' to make it clear that that 'twisted' is not just another modifier on 'gold'. The problem could be avoided by moving 'rose gold' to the first space... but then that creates a -new- problem of usage order.
    Thirdly, being technically grammatically correct is not the only requirement for good usage. 
    Fourthly, either "a thick yellow rope" or "a thick, yellow rope" would be correct... but I would actually lean towards the latter, to make it clear that 'thick' modifies 'rope' and not 'yellow'.

    Finally, I'm a professional editor. Nice to meet you.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,707Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am struggling to see how anybody could reasonably think thick modifies yellow. What would a colour being "thick" even mean?
    Cailin
  • LaedhaLaedha Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jiraishin said:
    Thirdly, being technically grammatically correct is not the only requirement for good usage. 
    Fourthly, either "a thick yellow rope" or "a thick, yellow rope" would be correct... but I would actually lean towards the latter, to make it clear that 'thick' modifies 'rope' and not 'yellow'.

    Yes to those two points. I stand by my mechanics that "a twisted rose gold wedding band" should not take a comma, but I'm not going to keep getting into the weeds of that specific example, and sometimes commas aren't actually required but are preferable for readability or clarity.

    My bottom line is that designs should not be rejected based on technical punctuation rules with such fine distinctions that two professionals disagree on what is correct. Somebody reviewing designs is basically auto-rejecting any time two adjectives precede a noun.    
    Aereidhna
  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Laedha said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Thirdly, being technically grammatically correct is not the only requirement for good usage. 
    Fourthly, either "a thick yellow rope" or "a thick, yellow rope" would be correct... but I would actually lean towards the latter, to make it clear that 'thick' modifies 'rope' and not 'yellow'.

    Yes to those two points. I stand by my mechanics that "a twisted rose gold wedding band" should not take a comma, but I'm not going to keep getting into the weeds of that specific example, and sometimes commas aren't actually required but are preferable for readability or clarity.

    My bottom line is that designs should not be rejected based on technical punctuation rules with such fine distinctions that two professionals disagree on what is correct. Somebody reviewing designs is basically auto-rejecting any time two adjectives precede a noun.    
    Yeah, I agree with the last thing. 
    FWIW I'm sad the argument is ending, a little. It's a slow work day and arguing about grammar and usage is kind of my thing. :P

    @Antonius the deal with that kind of lack of clarity ('thick yellow' versus 'thick, yellow') isn't that it's going to literally confuse people as to the meaning-- lack of clarity in such cases more usually means that the person's eye snags on the phrase while they read because something seems off.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    Laedha
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    "Thick yellow" is not a compound adjective (compare "hot pink"). And "yellow rope" is not a compound noun (compare "pink slip")

    So "I have a thick yellow rope." is an incomplete sentence (whereas "I have a hot pink pink slip." is actually a complete sentence!). Two sequential adjectives that do not modify each other must be linked with a conjunction

    The complete sentence is very technically "I have a thick and yellow rope."

    And by extension, since one of the comma's purposes in grammar is to substitute for the conjunction "and", you get:
    "I have a thick, yellow rope."

    the comma is not optional, unless "thick yellow" were to actually mean something in itself
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  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dupre said:

    So "I have a thick yellow rope." is an incomplete sentence (whereas "I have a hot pink pink slip." is actually a complete sentence!). Two sequential adjectives that do not modify each other must be linked with a conjunction

    This is exactly why grammatical correctness and good usage are not always the same thing.
    Would totally require that item to be "a pink slip of hot pink" before I let that past the Council if it were a crafting submission and I were a Celani.

    And then I'd probably go drink my sorrows over all the submissions like that one I got.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • GarnerGarner Posts: 51Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2018
    Everything about Achaea says to use the British system for spelling, so we'll go with that system for grammar.

    The New Oxford Style Manual says there are two types of adjectives: classifying and qualitative. You can tell the difference because qualitative adjectives can be modified by the word "very". If "very" doesn't work, then it's a classifying adjective. The need for a comma depends on the various combos of these types.

    Qualitative adjectives need a comma if there are two or more. A "long, thick rope" needs it because long and thick are qualifying - you can have a 'very long' and 'very thick'.

    Classifying adjectives of two or more don't need a comma so long as they are describe different qualities - a "French silver serving spoon" needs no commas because those are all classifying adjectives. You can have a huge list of these, but so long as they don't overlap, no commas.

    A qualitative and classifying together needs no comma, as in your example - "thick yellow rope" is a qualitative (thick, like very thick) and classifying (yellow), so no comma is needed. As well, you can have one qualitative in a list of classifying, and no comma is needed. Adding to the example above, you can have an "old French silver serving spoon". More than one classifying would need commas, like a "heavy, old, French silver serving spoon".

    There can be arguments as to whether something is qualitative or classifying, which is why there is disagreement among people - can something be more yellow than something else? In that case, can you say "very yellow", and therefore it's a qualitative, thus you need "thick, yellow rope". However, because we're describing one item, not this item compared to another item, colour would be a classifying, in my opinion. As there are as many opinions as there are people, comma use will never be firmly decided.

    EDIT: At some point, I switched from 'qualitative' to 'qualifying'. Blergh.
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2018
    Colours are unarguably qualitative/gradable else why can colours end in "er" and "est" i.e. yellower (more/very yellow) and yellowest (most yellow).
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  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,707Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But you would never design "a thick, yellower rope", so that seems a little irrelevant. This discussion has gone on for way too long in this thread, though. If you guys want to keep discussing it you should start a new one.
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That has nothing to do with adjective identity qualitative vs. classifying, just because you would not design "a thicker, yellow rope" doesn't make thick a classifying adjective now
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    Antidas
  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    But you would never design "a thick, yellower rope", so that seems a little irrelevant. This discussion has gone on for way too long in this thread, though. If you guys want to keep discussing it you should start a new one.
    Aw, come on. Discussions and arguments over combat questions last for ages. Let us have our fun.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    LaedhaCailin
  • GarnerGarner Posts: 51Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Dupre said:
    That has nothing to do with adjective identity qualitative vs. classifying, just because you would not design "a thicker, yellow rope" doesn't make thick a classifying adjective now
    It's less about "thicker" and more about "very thick". What you wouldn't write is "a thick, very yellow rope". If it's yellow, it's yellow. It classifies the rope into a category - the colour yellow. You have a category of things that are yellow. You can't really do that with thick though, because thick is very much a subjective descriptor. You have to have something to compare it to to say whether or not it's thick - 1 meter in diameter might seem thick, but if were a race of giants ten times the size of a human, that might not seem thick at all. But not so with yellow. Yellow is yellow, whether there's something to compare it to or not.

    Like I said before, colour falls into a weird grey area, and in nearly every bit of writing and editing you'll find, colour is used as a classifying adjective. It's "little black dress", not "little, black dress".
  • CamrothCamroth Posts: 96Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm glad I studied IT in college.
    DochithaUtianima
  • KerirKerir Posts: 23Member
    this discussion is wow
    I'm a cold-blooded Kerir.
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 993Member @ - Epic Achaean
    It is absolutely not "thick, yellow rope."

    Would you write about a woman looking for a little, black dress? Would you say that I have short, brown hair? Would you talk about a pretty, young lady? No. All of those look ridiculous, and the reason they look ridiculous is that in each case the first adjective is a modifier applied to the rest of the phrase. The "little" modifies "black dress", the "short" modifies "brown hair", and the "pretty" modifies "young lady".

    The rule of thumb is that if you can put an "and" in there without it sounding fucking ridiculous, you should use a comma.

    "He is a courageous, talented, ambitious officer" -> "He is a courageous and talented and ambitious officer". Yes. This works. 

    "She was shopping for the perfect, little, black dress." -> "She was shopping for the perfect and little and black dress." NO. THIS IS WRONG. DON'T DO THIS. IT IS BAD. 
    Laedha
  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nazihk said:
    It is absolutely not "thick, yellow rope."

    Would you write about a woman looking for a little, black dress? Would you say that I have short, brown hair? Would you talk about a pretty, young lady? No. All of those look ridiculous, and the reason they look ridiculous is that in each case the first adjective is a modifier applied to the rest of the phrase. The "little" modifies "black dress", the "short" modifies "brown hair", and the "pretty" modifies "young lady".

    The rule of thumb is that if you can put an "and" in there without it sounding fucking ridiculous, you should use a comma.

    "He is a courageous, talented, ambitious officer" -> "He is a courageous and talented and ambitious officer". Yes. This works. 

    "She was shopping for the perfect, little, black dress." -> "She was shopping for the perfect and little and black dress." NO. THIS IS WRONG. DON'T DO THIS. IT IS BAD. 
    It's more complicated than that. It depends on where you want to cast emphasis. Achaea distorts what would be common rules of the English language, because you read things differently than you would IRL. The sentence structure is very skewed, and writing style changes accordingly. Consider it a written dialect.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 1,316Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Jiraishin said:
    Consider it a written dialect.
    With a "Shallam-touched" accent?   </cross-contamination of threads>

    Jiraishin
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 1,171Member @ - Epic Achaean
                         

    YgiaCaelan
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It IS absolutely "thick, yellow rope."

    A "little black dress" is a dress that is only a "little black"

    "Short brown hair" is hair that is "short brown" (no such thing)

    A "pretty young lady" is a lady who is "pretty young" (see now why only compound adjectives are not comma'd?)

    If you argue otherwise you're just living in the perpetual wrong!
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  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasPosts: 682Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Don't kill me but I have a quick crafting question unrelated to commas. (Though I am SO FRUSTRATED with commas being inserted into cumulative adjectives right now, so a) it's good to know I'm not the only one and b) some of the discussion was actually helpful, especially Garner's post about the Oxford Style Manual.)

    I have seen macabre recipes using mortal races before. I'm considering doing a roasted dragon something recipe as a (somewhat joking) gift for someone, BUT not sure if those types of recipes are still accepted by the Guild and/or if dragon specifically might be rejected for some reason (doesn't have to be a mortal/adventurer dragon, could be a random nameless denizen dragon I killed and cooked).

    (Also, there are ethical complications I need to run down org-wise. I'm being extra careful because I was conditioned by the Virtuosi not to do these types of recipes for path work and have never tried to submit one to the Guild before. But trying to even make sure it is a possibility before I dig into that.)
    Jiraishin
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,387Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited December 2018
    You guys are confusing me.

    Thick yellow rope means:
    A rope that's thick yellow
    A yellow rope that's thick

    Which one? 

    How about a yellow thick rope?

    Why I find eng more interesting than combat now?
    JiraishinLaedha
  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,419Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Follow the yellow brick road yellow thick rope.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    LaedhaTaryius
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 231Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2018
    Appearance (short_desc)
    a little black dress
    Dropped (long_desc)
    A dress that is a little black is here.
    Examined (extended_desc)
    This dress is a little black.


    Appearance (short_desc)
    a little, black dress
    Dropped (long_desc)
    A dress that is little and black is here.
    Examined (extended_desc)
    This dress is little and black.


    Appearance (short_desc)
    a little, little black dress
    Dropped (long_desc)
    A dress that is little and a little black is here.
    Examined (extended_desc)
    This dress is little and a little black.


    Don't make me submit this to Crafting Council because I will I swear to god
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