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  • VelyseVelyse
    I wasn't asking what artefacts a priest should get, I was wondering if priests can actually become "top tier" without artefacts given the nature of their 1v1 kill methods :)
  • TanrisTanris

    Any class can get top tier sans artifacts. Artifacts make certain things easier, and you'll always (particularly at top tier) run up against class matchups which are horrifically unbalanced either in your or the other person's favour. (Using occultist as an example, a monk will cry tears of blood if they fight a high tier occultist whereas a devotionist would smile.)

    Priest in particular really doesn't gain a huge amount one v one from artifacts. Its already arguably the tankiest class when it comes to pure damage mitigation plus regen and whatnot, and has angel drain for an additional prone boost (which usually determines how tanky a class will be against the burst damage classes like monk/dragon). That makes defensive artifacts less relevant, as those tend to be best for classes with minimal damage mitigation to offset the fact.

    Offensively, you could boost purity with int/collar, but this really isn't overly relevant for one v one; it might help, but not >1000 credits help. The offensive issues with priest are pretty established and well known, and will hopefully be addressed when this round of classleads goes in. Sans that though, you can usually do just fine without any artifacts against anyone without decent mana regen and an active mana heal like priestess/sapience. People without both of these can still avoid you with intelligent mana conservation and turtling when necessary, but that's like most classes. Only really major artifact boosts for one v one are mace, bow and diadem (diadem for priest is amazing, since just about everything sans smite uses equilibrium). Bow is good because you can use meteors as a source of passive damage while sapping to try to eat up health balance (won't work so well on tanky people, as they'll just ignore your meteors and moss it off while sipping mana, but still solid).

    So pretty much yes, its doable at high tier, but there will be people who you won't be able to kill due to priest's linear offense and most high tier people having experience dealing with said offense (but then, that goes for artifacted priest, too).

  • ReanRean
    Any class can become top tier if you work enough at understanding the mechanics and are good at ignoring the opinions of everyone else (you will get a lot of "that's stupid, don't even try"s, "priest is incapable of anything other than healing blind for transfix"s, and other discouraging nonsense). Just keep working at it and improving - if you ever feel like you've hit a wall, try to find a new angle to work from or a new goal to do. Try to find something else to add into what you're already doing if you have trouble.

    Eventually, you might need to get an artifact down the road if you figure out exactly what would benefit you the most, but you will do a lot better if you learn to be good without artifacts then by them rather than buy everything in the book and close your eyes while you flail away at the keyboard. 
  • IocunIocun
    You'll be able to kill some classes without arties even at a relatively "high tier", by resorting to certain rather boring and repetitive tactics, but against many other classes you won't be able to do all that much offensively. It's also unlikely that people will consider you top tier if all you do is spam sap or spam judgement with piety and passive healing and for many more interesting tactics you'll need the greater offensive variety artefacts can offer.

    So in short: I doubt you can be a top tier priest in 1v1 without arties in today's combat environment. But I'd love to be surprised by a clever new priest fighter!

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • EldEld
    Nellaundra said:

    Eld said:
    Does anyone know what determines a denizen's CONSIDER status? Is it max health based, level based, something else? My guess has been health, since if I recall correctly, werewolves, for example, are comparable in level to, say, Sidhe, but consider as "quite powerful" as opposed to "aura of overwhelming power". On a related note, also curious what determines Great Hunt points.
    It's purely level.  I'll grab my list when I get ingame later.

    EDIT: For the consider that is.
    Hm, now I'm interested to see your list! I'm pretty sure it can't be purely level. Just checked a few things: fairy lady of Sidhe is "crushingly strong" at level 100, fairy knight of Sidhe "air of extreme strength" at 130, fell werewolf "quite powerful" at level 115. Not sure whether that rules out max health or not, since I didn't try to check in detail whether the werewolf or the fairy lady took more damage to kill. And on the off chance anyone's curious, muscular ormyrr are "air of extreme strength" at 130 and ormyrr guards are "aura of overwhelming power" at 165.
  • WilhelminaWilhelmina
    Zancrow said:
    All of them. Artefacts only really become a necessity when dealing with very high damage, and even then you're generally better off transcending skills than getting artefacts. A sip ring and over level 80 is enough. However, there are classes that are better than others without artefacts that still excel in 1v1, generally:

    Any of the Knight classes. 
    Magi. 
    Apostate. 
    Blademaster.
    Shaman(more for midbie than top-tier, however).
    How does Serpent measure up to those? I often hear that the advancement of systems have reduced their effectiveness.

    Another question: What makes Serpent combat more difficult than Blademaster combat?
  • SylvanceSylvance
    @Wilhelmina - I was told by a serpent that, because of systems, you need a pair of Buckawn's Spines (lvl2 dirks) to stand a chance of stacking afflictions, and that actually to hit the top tier you'd need a pair of Thoth's Fangs (lvl3).  I'm guessing that's the only class that requires you to spend 3000cr to stand a chance in PvP against a good opponent.  Probably wouldn't sting so much if they weren't also 'bad' at stealing.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • NellaundraNellaundra
    Wilhelmina said:
    Zancrow said:
    All of them. Artefacts only really become a necessity when dealing with very high damage, and even then you're generally better off transcending skills than getting artefacts. A sip ring and over level 80 is enough. However, there are classes that are better than others without artefacts that still excel in 1v1, generally:

    Any of the Knight classes. 
    Magi. 
    Apostate. 
    Blademaster.
    Shaman(more for midbie than top-tier, however).
    How does Serpent measure up to those? I often hear that the advancement of systems have reduced their effectiveness.

    Another question: What makes Serpent combat more difficult than Blademaster combat?
    I refer you to my thread: Serpent.  AKA the class that hates you.
    image
  • WilhelminaWilhelmina
    Why would I need a pair of dirks?
  • SylvanceSylvance
    Wilhelmina said:
    Why would I need a pair of dirks?
    No clue. That's what I was told.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • SenaSena
    You only need one dirk.
  • NellaundraNellaundra
    Requirements for Serpent combat:

    One Thoth's Fang

    One Artefact bow

    Your venoms

    Decent whip.

    Enough prayer that some God out there will grant you it just to shut you the hell up.
    image
  • WilhelminaWilhelmina
    @Nellanundra I read that thread. It's actually where my questions came from. I suppose I should have posted my questions there instead.
  • MahtMaht
    edited November 2012
    Wilhelmina said:
    Zancrow said:
    All of them. Artefacts only really become a necessity when dealing with very high damage, and even then you're generally better off transcending skills than getting artefacts. A sip ring and over level 80 is enough. However, there are classes that are better than others without artefacts that still excel in 1v1, generally:

    Any of the Knight classes. 
    Magi. 
    Apostate. 
    Blademaster.
    Shaman(more for midbie than top-tier, however).
    How does Serpent measure up to those? I often hear that the advancement of systems have reduced their effectiveness.

    Another question: What makes Serpent combat more difficult than Blademaster combat?
    I'm going to use one of my favorite terms: mechanical kill strategies. Blademaster has a variety of setups that are very easy to achieve once you understand limb damage. Many of these setups you can look at and know that "this -will- kill <person>" for one reason or another. Serpent does not have this luxury whatsoever. One of the most frustrating parts about Serpent is that if someone wants to play really defensively then you can't do much except hope to run them out of herbs - they will probably just leave at some point. People can walk in and out of the room, shield on snaps, etc. Blademaster at least has Hamstring and Impale which together does a decent job of preventing people from just walking away. Serpent also has a huge knowledge barrier, and as others have stated, probably need a 700 cr artifact. Things like lifevision and good illusion detection put you at a disadvantage from the beginning. Also, I'd go so far as to say that there isn't such a thing as a "mid-tier" serpent outside of just backstabbing delph and sniping someone out. You either get it or you don't, and it will take a lot of time to "get it". To do it without an artie dirk is going to require even more time.

    Keep in mind that I'm terrible and this is all just my opinion.
  • CahinCahin
    You should only need a thoth's fang and a buckawns or assassins dirk offhand.  The thoth's fang speed carries the offhand pretty well and while I'm not certain the level 1 offhand will work, I know for a fact you can hit the highest breakpoint with only a level 2 offhand dirk and level 3 mainhand dirk.  Anyone telling you anything else is probably trolling you and just going to waste your time and money in the long run.

    Next question, please.

  • WilhelminaWilhelmina
    I can't tell if you are trolling me. Why would a serpent use two dirks if they only need one to double stab?
  • CooperCooper
    Giving people that don't know better advice that you know is wrong and could cause someone to make poor class/artefact decisions is kind of dumb.

  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.
    Cooper said:
    Giving people that don't know better advice that you know is wrong and could cause someone to make poor class/artefact decisions is really, really reckless. You should be forced to refund her credits if she makes that purchse.
    ftfy
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
  • CahinCahin
    Cooper said:
    Giving people that don't know better advice that you know is wrong and could cause someone to make poor class/artefact decisions is kind of dumb.
    Because someone who knows that little about their class to trust that suggestion should be purchasing artefacts in the first place.  Can't tell if you're serious or not.  Never can.

  • SylvanceSylvance
    What is ftfy pls?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • CahinCahin
    Locks are old hat. Relapse OP.

  • ReanRean
    Talk to someone renowned for combat OOCly before you make any decision regarding spending more than $200, unless you're rich and don't care about your money. There's a lot of noncombatants out there that will tell you what they think is right, and won't realize they're possibly giving you absolutely terrible advice.

    Then talk to another good fighter. Then another. Then decide for yourself if you want to follow their advice.
  • MahtMaht
    edited November 2012
    I'm glad that Tanris hasn't grown tired of describing classes in detail and indirectly correcting people who are wrong (me).

    Edit: That sounds kind of bitter, but I assure you it's not. Thanks for the write-up.
  • VaehlVaehl
    Tanris said:

    Not to be overly harsh to anyone struggling, but people who claim you need a thoths fang to kill people as serpent are simply incorrect.

    A thoths fang gives an exponential benefit (and is definitely one of the best level three artifacts). However, its like saying "my grook magi with level 3 collar owns face with his f1 macro, unartied magi is worthless though".

    Serpent has several mechanical ways to kill people, and is actually probably the most mechanical class in the game. Those preps just require afflictions, not limb breaks (although serpents can do a lot with limb breaks too, if they're so inclined).

    Serpent requires a very thorough understanding of how combat mechanics work to start being good unartifacted, and a lot of practice to be top tier: but once they get there they're arguably one of the hardest things to go up against. They also have access to a huge number of tricks given what for all practical purposes is passive force and afflict/illusion. Serpents only failing is shield on snap, and flay shield and the ability to use bows to stack meteors is a passable counter for this when compared to say, apostate (who gets hammer and likes it to couple with hunt).

    Serpent also has access to one of the most game changing afflictions on the game (relapse), which has huge combat implications all on its own when coupled with a locking/ginseng stacking class.

    People who want a do x until y breaks then do z will absolutely loathe serpent, as it doesn't cater to that style of combat. It has a very steap learning curve, but once you master it (and learn how each public system cures), the issues you're likely to run into become fairly uniform (curing rarely changes, bal/rebounding times don't, shields about all).

    Tl;dr: Thoths not required, but if you can afford it go wild.


  • EldEld
    Sylvance said:
    What is ftfy pls?
    FTFY stands for "fixed that for you".
  • ExelethrilExelethril
    Sylvance said:
    What is ftfy pls?
    Here you go - click.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • IocunIocun
    edited November 2012
    I can't kill anyone without a lock :(

    Anyways: agreed with Tanris. Artefact dirks are awesome, but not required. Basically, artefact dirks just allow you to do the same things a bit faster and/or sloppier, while using a normal dirk will often require you to try your setups many more times until they succeed (due to getting less dstabs in a rebounding cycle, more time getting hindered by shield, and less redundancies in your stacking and thus a greater chance of your opponent curing what he wants to cure). If you don't understand the underlying principles at all, you won't succeed with a Fang either. If you do understand them, you can lock anyone with a non-artie dirk, given enough time.

    Artefact bows are nice for group combat, but not needed 1v1. Artefact whips are for bashing only.

    The only artefacts you may "need" are some defensive ones if you go against other very artied people. Scales and evade are nice, but they can only do so much against a fully artied monk, blademaster, or runewarden (evade will keep you safe against momentum classes, but doesn't do much against break-then-burstdamage tactics). But that's nothing specific about serpents. Almost everyone needs some defensive boosts when going up against artied-out damage classes.

    The difficulty from serpent combat comes mostly from the fact that it's not as much based on a linear succession of actions as some other classes, but requires you to be aware and do several things at the same time (being aware of an opponent's rebounding, curing priorities, which illusions work against him, how he uses certain abilities like fitness, as well as attacking with two venoms plus two illusions every few seconds and timing your hypnosis right at the same time).

    Not quite agreed on the "curing rarely changes" part though. It doesn't change all that much on a greater level, but almost no two people of mid-to-high tier have the exact same curing regarding all priorities, what illusions they'll fall for, what class abilities they have and when they use them, when they touch tree, what defs they keep up, etc., and the more experienced opponents will even change aspects of their curing in mid-combat. But yeah, you do generally tend to develop general "recipes" to counter common curing strategies and just vary them a bit here and there to match your current opponent. It's not as if you have to re-invent the affliction wheel for every new fight. (90% of my wins come after ancient tried and true setups like kelp and goldenseal stacks. But that may also just be because I'm not very imaginative - definitely not as imaginative as a good serpent should be.)

    →My Mudlet Scripts

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