League of Legends

Jovolo

Sightstone is just as important if you're ahead, because you can set up deep vision for free. You can normally buy sightstone between 6 and 10 minutes, if you're ahead you're going to be grabbing it at 6 or 7 minutes. There's no way you're so far ahead at that point that you're pushed all the way to their inhibitors. 

I think Aphro is the best support in NA at the minute, but if Biofrost maintains form he's a close contender and currently top 3. Worldwide (including China) I'm sure Mata, Wolf, Gorilla and possibly Meiko are all still better than him overall.

Jarrod

Biofrost is definitely strong but I think he's got the opposite effect. TSM is clearly doing well and anyone on TSM will look somewhat better than their individual selves because of that. Not saying he's bad, just saying it's hard to judge. The biggest indicator to me is how well they impact the game when their team is behind. Biofrost definitely makes good picks, but look at the CLG v TSM game where CLG was behind the entire game, and Aphro almost single-handedly delayed the game and turned around plays for ~30m straight.

Cynlael

Adrian better? Wat. Bunny better mechanically? Also wat. Smoothie? Eh, he's alright. If you legitimately think any of those three are better (when a large amount of pros have said contrary), I would question how long you've been watching competitive play.

Agree with both Jarrod and Jovolo, personally. Wolf's amazing, GorillA and Mata are both great, when it comes to worldwide. Biofrost has been one of the better 'newcomers' to the LCS, I'd say.

Elsam

Omor said:

Elsam said:

Omor said:

 I play to have fun with friends, personally, though.

Come on man, we all know League stopped being fun in season 3. :P

What's funny about that is I played League the most in S3. Lol. But, yeah, I kinda just fuck off with Shaco, Singed, and Teemo.... >.> (reported)

SOOOOOO reported. lol

Kafziel

Ohm said:

We had such an immense early lead and so many turrets down , including bot inhib so early that I never really had a chance or need for a sightstone. I think my back/buy order was something like spellthief upgrade + pink ward at first back, frost queen's  + pink ward + biscuits + sweeper second back, then zhonya's + pink ward and we won the game. You really don't need a sightstone if you're 15+ kills up and own the whole map at 12 minutes, especially when spooky ghosts from frost queen's basically nets your team 2+ kills on cooldown.


Also, I don't think Aphro is the best support in NA. Adrian is better overall, BunnyFufuu is definitely better mechanically, and Smoothie is making a good case for himself as better overall as well. Aphro made his case with Doublelift as a great support but honestly even when they were considered such a star bot lane they still got shut down by Sneaky/LemonNation all the time (C9 macro had a lot to do with that sometimes, granted, but not always.)

I hear a lot of people trying to justify not building sightstone on support. IMO it's never okay to not build it. If you're so far ahead, 800 gold is basically nothing, if you're behind you need it even more. You play how you want, especially in normals, but I'll never buy the no sightstone argument.

Jarrod

Yep. I'm perfectly fine with off-meta support choices (not that Morgana is one). I'm not fine with people thinking off-meta support means they don't have to build the single most meta item for supports. Screws over the entire team because the person is basically pretending they didn't pick or get given support.

Ohm

LOL, some feelings here. I have been watching LCS (in all regions) and playing League for a very long time. I also main support.. and have played against Aphro (and other top tier/pro supports)... He's an amazing player, I agree, and at one point, arguably the best support in NA. I don't believe that's the case now. It's just my opinion. There is a lot that goes into "how good a player is".. Aphro is ridiculously good and experienced, but there are definitely other supports with better mechanics and micro. I guess we'll see who makes it to worlds and how well they do there.

As for @Kafziel and this sightstone business, le sigh. Yes, I know how to play support, and what the optimal build path is, and how super useful "free" deep vision is. But, we really did have inhib at 6-7 minutes. I only bought two times after initial buy.... think about that, and the fact that the game was over at 20 minutes. In a real game, I would definitely rush sightstone on most any support... but this was troll, we were WAY too far ahead. The other team never made it past their inhib turrets without dying after 11 minutes so.... and I hadn't had the opportunity to back and buy before then because I was too busy getting all my carries ridiculously fed with frost queen's and bindings. I get that even if you're crushing lane and you should still secure and extend that advantage however possible, and one of the best ways to do that as a support is to move vision up. Hurray, you guys get the basics of League of Legends. That doesn't mean that what I did was bad or that I was playing support wrong. Itemization is always dependent on the context of the specific game. In this particular game, my itemization definitely had the highest possible return on investment for my team and my ADC specifically. Vision wouldn't have helped, we knew where they were: Either sitting in their base, or trying to get farm under turret before we killed them.

Cynlael

If you were that far ahead, and could've got sightstone + boots for better roaming, and more kills. Rather than wasting 3000 gold on an early zhonya's.

Justifying is fun tho.

edit; Frost Queen's is pretty crap and largely unnecessary if you're that far ahead. At that point, it's better to just get the sightstone version + boots. Frost Queen's is for making picks. If you're that far ahead, you don't need to make picks.

Arguing itemisation is also fun

Jarrod

You know someone's got a shaky argument when their first response to conflicting opinions is bringing up the other side's "feelings".

Also, saying Aphro in the past was arguably the best is a bit silly. For the past two seasons there hasn't been an argument. He's been the best support, and at times the best player in NA. It's only now that his team is performing worse that the argument could be made for others. He's still hugely impactful on an individual level. Smoothie and Biofrost are the only supports I'd put in the same conversation as him. Aphromoo overall is probably better than both of them still. I don't think any other supports in NA can even be compared right now.

Ohm

diamond 1 on two accounts and master tier on 1 is a pretty solid argument, actually.. and making picks is MUCH better than a sightstone when the other team is NEVER going to even get out of their base... but ok kid have fun in silver 2 or whatever

Ohm

and you're telling me Aphro was better than Bjergsen? ever? no... dude Hai was just as good support as Aphro and he's a jungler turned mid laner turned jungler turned support lol...

Jovolo

How do you make picks without vision?

Also, Hai was nowhere near as good a support as Aphro. Hai had one of the highest death numbers with lowest wards placed and lowest wards cleared in NA. He's a good PLAYER and shotcaller but he was a relatively bad support.

Bjergsen is the best player in NA and has been for 2 seasons. Aphro arguably had a better season 5 overall but yeah individually Bjergsen is the best in NA. Comparing between roles is hard though. All we know is Aphro is the best support.

Ohm

Stats like deaths and wards placed are only relevant in relation to win/loss record. Placing a ton of wards and NOT DYING as support is not a good sign if your team is losing games.

Cynlael

Jarrod said:

You know someone's got a shaky argument when their first response to conflicting opinions is bringing up the other side's "feelings".

To add to this, trying to claim such high level accounts, then following up with calling me a kid, does nothing to help you. That age of yours is really showing, boy.

Jarrod

Ohm said:

making picks is MUCH better than a sightstone when the other team is NEVER going to even get out of their base... but ok kid have fun in silver 2 or whatever

Making picks is most easily done by maintaining a vision advantage over your opponent. You achieve this via sightstone, sweepers, and pink wards. Also worth noting that your reluctance to buy sightstone is not restricted to that game. It's a trend when you support, regardless of game length or win/loss. Using one game where your team stomped and pretending that's the exception doesn't do much here.

And again, trying to trash talk ranks just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Daklore

I think we can all agree that there is a lot of disagreement lately, and I'd like for you all to take a page from Canada and just apologize to each other for no reason whatsoever, then go have a double-double with some timbits. League should be fun, not mathed. Math is the enemy. Math is -always- the enemy. Except in Kerbal Space Program, which this isn't.

Also, 990 wins in ARAM... I'll get to 999 sooner or later... then make my doomed requisition for a game with rioters... it'll happen. And someone loaded in with hextech annie ... wonder how much that cost them...

Trey

Daklore said:

League should be fun, not mathed.

When has League ever been for fun?

Daklore

Since... forever? It's a game. Games are meant to be fun. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong

Cynlael

If you're not having fun, there's also a chance you're playing soloQ.

Lul.

Ohm

I am 26 years old, 'kid' has meaning specific to the league community, there is no need for any argumentative rhetoric to "help" me because I know (and experience has shown again and again) that I'm right and I don't care if you believe me or not? my friend lemon uses the same build on morgana in lcs and challenger now and we both find success with it. you can say frost queen is not worth getting but i dont think you realize that i FINISHED it at 6 or 7 minutes that game. definitely worth. play another 2000 games on support in a tier above gold and then lets talk

@Jarrod other people play on this account as well, but generally speaking, I grab a sightstone or eye every game I'm playing support, unless it's a troll normal against bad players where I could have started buying longswords and still won handedly.

Ahmet

Ohm said:

I am 26 years old, 'kid' has meaning specific to the league community, there is no need for any argumentative rhetoric to "help" me because I know (and experience has shown again and again) that I'm right and I don't care if you believe me or not? my friend lemon uses the same build on morgana in lcs and challenger now and we both find success with it. you can say frost queen is not worth getting but i dont think you realize that i FINISHED it at 6 or 7 minutes that game. definitely worth. play another 2000 games on support in a tier above gold and then lets talk

@Jarrod other people play on this account as well, but generally speaking, I grab a sightstone or eye every game I'm playing support, unless it's a troll normal against bad players where I could have started buying longswords and still won handedly.

No, kid doesn't have meaning specific to the league community. It's a reflex insult that really adds nothing to the conversation and makes you look like an immature prick. And obviously you care because you're still here defending yourself. So... yeah.

That's my rant for the day.

Elsam

@Ohm I honestly question your elo claims. Being a person that has played League of Legends since season 2, I tend to think I have a fairly good grasp of the game. A Frost Queens costs 2200 gold to complete. So with that figure in mind. Let's take a look at gold income at seven minutes into the game. 

1) CS - As the primary gold source, let's assume you took the ADCs creeps, and didn't miss a single one up to the seven minute mark. That would place you with around 1300-something gold. ( I am more than willing to break all of that down to minion arrival times and show you the exact gold earned if you would like.) But I am sure you aren't stealing ADC creeps if you MAIN support.
2) Spellthiefs Edge - As part of the Frost Queens, if you were rushing the full item, you would most likely pick up a spellthiefs first. At seven minutes, the Spellthief would net you  84 gold.
3) Bandit - Now this is assuming you were able to completely maximize this mastery: +1 gold for each nearby minion killed - 63 minions at 7:00, so 63 gold from that. Now assuming you did damage to an enemy champion EVERY 5 seconds you could get a maximum of 84 procs of that mastery netting you 840 gold (Melee) or 252 (Ranged) and since you were talking about ranged AA champions, I am going to assume the 252 gold. 
4) Runes - Assuming you had full Greater Seal of Gold - 94.5 gold, assuming three Greater Quintessence of Gold - 1260
5) Just plain passive gold. At 20.4 gp/10 you would have 856 gold passively at 7 minutes.
6) Assist gold - I'm not really going into this one, too many variables, but we will assume you got the sole assist with no help from anyone else and your ADC got a billion kills by the seven minute mark.

Now is it possible to have a full Frost Queens at seven minutes? Oh of course, but you are talking about either being a total douche with your masteries, or having LCS level skill with maximizing the bandit mastery. We are also most talking about you not purchasing wards or any other beneficial item, every gold going toward your Frost Queens. I don't mean to be a prick here man, but your claim is a little washy and you have given no reason why anyone should believe you are more than a bronzie trying to sound better than he is. 

On top of that, you really just dont even talk like you know the game all too well. All I have read is passive-aggressive comments about the skill level you play at without anything to back it up. 

Ohm

My ADC had quite a few kills (5ish) where I got sole assist money, my jungler got two where I got sole assist, my mid laner got 2 where I was sole assist, and I got two solo kills while holding turret while my ADC backed... and yeah, I got maximum procs on spellthief's and pretty much maximum on bandit. Oh, and we pushed two towers. Morgana is ridiculously easy compared to any other champ in the game to proc spellthief's, and the early AP/mana regen makes winning lane a lot simpler assuming you have vision of the enemy jungler and don't over extend, hence why even Aphro builds it on Morgana. He's the best support, right? But it's a worthless item, right? I didn't need to be leaving lane to put wards in deep jungle because I was watching the enemy jungler die top and mid back to back, and watching my mid laner kill the enemy mid.. death timers... pretty easy to deduce that a gank is unlikely and you're safe to push up in lane. I completely understand what is being said about proper support builds and how to play the role, but this all centered around a game that was pretty troll. Nothing I built or bought was detrimental to my team's ability to fight or control the map (which is what was stated) or to my ADC's kills. *shrug*

add me ig if you want to see a non-troll support game, end the debate and have fun

Jovolo

There's nothing wrong with building Spellthief's into FQC on Morgana. The questionable part of his build is the lack of a Sightstone, although he's already said he builds sightstone the majority of the time and this game was a one-off. There are some one-trick AP supports in Master that go full AP without a sightstone, but they are very few compared to the majority that do build Sightstone and I personally hate playing with supports that don't pick up a Sightstone. Whether you build Eye of the watchers or FQC+Sightstone is dependent on a lot of factors, one also being playstyle. You can make both work because neither is a bad option. 

You don't need to resort to insults to make your arguments, Ohm, which is why a lot of people reflexively disagree with you here. If you're as high elo as you claim, you should be fine presenting your arguments with clear reasoning. You shouldn't even need to brag about your rank. 

Daklore

Aight people, you're arguing on the internet. Why are you arguing on the internet?

No seriously, why are you arguing on the internet? Everyone has one point or another, acknowledge it and move on. Yes, there's a way to play, and a way to lulz. Most of us would prefer supports play as supports and provide vision. The benefits of vision are proven to be OP, we can all agree with that. If a support doesn't want to take the OP route, then fine. But let us move on Come oooon.

In other news, 996 ARAM wins... None of you care about ARAM, though (conversely, about 964 losses, Alpha client doesn't show me my losses like the air client does(something I have griped about in feedback))

Warmuk

I started playing a little bit ago. oEmjid is my summoner name. I just hit level 6 and unlocked the free rotation and ARAM. Would love to meet some people who play Achaea by playing League, as I'm still very much trying to figure out how to Achaea. Actually, still trying to figure out how to League as well but I have won some games!

Borran

So sad. Ohm has a good game and wants to share. His build gets critiqued and suddenly everyone is at everyone else's neck.

Good game, Ohm. I'm glad your strategy worked. 

Daklore

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo! !_!

Omor

That Achaea clan is on NA, huh?

Daklore

it is, yes.