Monk Ridiculousness

Iakimen

Santar said:

15 strength isn't even completely min maxed for unartied monk. Unartied monk can go up to 18. 

:O Strength spec, icon, strength trait. What'd I miss?

Daslin

Alright, let's all say it together and maybe the 400th thread will disappear, much as it should....

Niraaeth

I have 13 strength - str specialization but con major trait, so I can be decent in both hunting and sparing.
I don't have any logs whatsoever, but I'll try to save some from now on.

@Santar: I understand that my race has disadvantage in combat, but I don't think anyone should ever tank that, given the insane luck you need to pull it off and given that it's seriously max damage a Monk can deal (at least theoretically).

Look, I don't mind if you nerf Monks where it needs some tweaking, though, you need to keep in mind that there are unartied, non-blunt Iconed Monks in the game as well and you render -them- completely useless while the others will only feel a minor change.

EDIT: I'm fine with removing AXK completely, but in return implement another strategy for Monks or boost BBT with each broken limb the opponent has maybe?
EDIT2: Rework dodging also, PLEASE! I get bored trying to hit a dodgy Bard or Serpent (yes, I'm looking at you @Strata). Don't go telling me about RHK because that gets dodged as well.
EDIT3:Since I feel like ranting... increase SWK accuracy already. It drives me insane when I -finally- have someone fully prepped and all fails because my stupid swk misses. Ok, not quite -all-, but I do have to reprep at least two limbs, which in some cases takes eternity.

Tharvis

could just change the blunt icon to not stack with the knuckles

Iocun

Iakimen said:

Santar said:

15 strength isn't even completely min maxed for unartied monk. Unartied monk can go up to 18. 

:O Strength spec, icon, strength trait. What'd I miss?

Xoran, Troll, Satyr with str spec: 15

Trait: 16

Targossas permanent doubletruefavour: 18

(He might also have included stuff like Jera and icon though, dunno. 18 is a bit a high expectation for an unartied monk, anyways, but 15 can be expected for str-speccing monks, except for Grooks and Atavians.)

Antonius

Iakimen said:

Santar said:

15 strength isn't even completely min maxed for unartied monk. Unartied monk can go up to 18. 

:O Strength spec, icon, strength trait. What'd I miss?

Max you'll get from strength spec is 15, plus one from the trait (16), plus one from icon (17, I guess - not sure why you'd pick that over the blunt icon), then one from Jera rune (18).

I'd say realistically fully maxed out monk will have 17 strength, though 15 or 16 is going to be more common.

Iakimen

Antonius said:

Iakimen said:

Santar said:

15 strength isn't even completely min maxed for unartied monk. Unartied monk can go up to 18. 

:O Strength spec, icon, strength trait. What'd I miss?

Max you'll get from strength spec is 15, plus one from the trait (16), plus one from icon (17, I guess - not sure why you'd pick that over the blunt icon), then one from Jera rune (18).

I'd say realistically fully maxed out monk will have 17 strength, though 15 or 16 is going to be more common.

Because @Rangor keeps promising yet never starts giving.

Daslin

RIDDIKULUS DAMNIT!

Am I not thinking funny enough?!

Penwize

I'm curious, how many lessons in avoidance and what defenses (armour/etc) did you have when you got hit with that huge axk?

Exelethril

This thread title is kinda misleading, I think. It should be Monk Blunt Icon Ridiculousness.

Daslin

nvm

Atalkez

@Thaumas

My sipped/eaten back up to 30% which he dropped me back down to 11% with his next combo. 

All in all, I would have died without running about 5-7 seconds after that combo.

I am not sure on his artie/stats but I know he has nearly every artie already.

@Penwize

I had no Harmonics, no runes, maybe some blessings.

My leather armor is 40/18 (weak on blunt, but it's actually a really good set)

I am Trans Avoidance, Stats: Strength : 12 Intelligence: 12 | Dexterity: 10 Constitution: 16 

I had normal defenses (sileris, etc) and only 2 class-based defenses one of which is this:

Syntax: SING TUNE

Adds a damage-reducing defense, which decreases damage of all kinds.

I am not sure what the percentage of damage reduction Tune provides, so I may post another log without Tune, and with a healing afterwards show to see just how quickly I regain health, and how quickly he is able to take it down again.

Cooper

So...a level 3 artied Ashuran/Scimitar/Blunt Icon axekick almost one shot an unartied person with the second lowest resistance to blunt damage in the game?

Not saying that artied/Ashura axk is balanced, but complaining in this situation is dumb.

Kross

Obviously being the Artied/Blunt Icon/damage-rape monk that I am, I figured i'd post what I have to better explain what was happening.

Horkval Ashuran Monk

Stats: Str - 17, Int - 13, Dex - 12, Con - 18.

Relevant Artes: Lvl 3 knuckles (Customed pretty sweet too), Lvl 3 gauntlets (which makes my original Str 14)

For this test, I simply asked him to sit down to see one full axk/ucp/ucp combo for damage. I axk'd, and he sipped after unpausing perfectly, so I could follow up with a double hookpunch to the torso, just to see if the damage would be enough to keep him down where he was originally after the axk. It nearly got him back down enough, but not quite past his sip range.

Basically, in my personal opinion, sure Axk could use some scaling, but the reality of how difficult an axe kick is to pull off against, say, a high dex serpent, trying to hit a sweep/double leg break to set up for an axe kick (especially when those high dex serpents usually have some level of sip ring to cover the two single leg breaking punches), they're usually nearly full health when/if I can get the axe kick on them. And then I, of course, rage when they tank it and try to follow up with pure damage, and they easily cure their legs, evade away, heal up (or touch Crystal - Damn you @Achilles!), so the prep work and axe balance tends to end up being a waste.

However, in the event of raids when I notice half a room is prone from kai cripples, tailsweep, or hitting a totem...best believe I'll be axing all day.

 

Cooper

There is really only one situation you should ever axekick, and that's when you know the combo will kill the person. Otherwise you use bbt first (or enfeeble if that's your style and you can get enough kai for it).

Also, I used to get one shotted by axekick as a level ~97  lightly artied Runewarden with 100+ blunt fullplate and algiz by ~16-17 str troll monks. So this bitching makes me giggle.

Atalkez

Cooper said:

There is really only one situation you should ever axekick, and that's when you know the combo will kill the person. Otherwise you use bbt first (or enfeeble if that's your style and you can get enough kai for it).

Also, I used to get one shotted by axekick as a level ~97  lightly artied Runewarden with 100+ blunt fullplate and algiz by ~16-17 str troll monks. So this bitching makes me giggle.

Not bitching just commenting?

I don't care either way, you live some you die some it is what it is.

Shit just sucks lol

Kross

Well I have a particular setup against most individuals that allow for a double axe kick. But it depends heavily on them, rather than me, but in most cases, I've gotten away with it.

Especially against Priestly types.

Arditi

The best counter to blunt icons would be a poison damage icon.

They can't one-hit AXK people when they're dead from five rooms away from being sniped to death.

Help me out here, Achaea. Help me help you not get AXK'd do death.

Vote Poison Damage Icon in 2014.

Asmodron

If a problem seems to keep persistently being brought up (as has been said of "up to 400 threads like this") then just -maybe- these complaints should be taken a bit more seriously than just simply laughing and saying " 'nother complaint thread, delete please".

Arditi

Asmodron said:

If a problem seems to keep persistently being brought up (as has been said of "up to 400 threads like this") then just -maybe- these complaints should be taken a bit more seriously than just simply laughing and saying " 'nother complaint thread, delete please".

To be quite honest, they still haven't done anything about those airline peanuts.

Cooper

Axekick isn't the problem.

Low might/no artied people going against high level/might/artied/scimitar/icon monks and then complaining about the damage is.

Also, blunt icon needs to be looked at.

Penwize

I also notice a very weird thing about damage kills that I don't see about affliction kills.  I'm not sure what it is, likely a matter of perception, but I find a lot of people complain about huge damage finishers, but I don't find anywhere near as many complaints about things like getting truelocked from dry in 15 seconds or getting enlightened in about as much time.  There's just something about massive damage finishers that has a perception of being way worse.

Cooper

People don't realize that if you nerf axk/bbt damage, monks become a broken class 1v1. Even a decrease of 10% would make it so the average monk couldn't kill tanky opponents even with perfect setups and execution.

Cahin

Jovolo said:

Niraaeth said:

That's not a particularly accurate title for this topic. I'll post a log later, but my AXK will never do even remotely close to that damage. Heck, I had several people tank 3 BBTs in a row with level 2 torso damage, so don't go generalizing like that.

That's a Monk with Strength arties and blunt Icon, not a simple Monk.

Can you post a log of the people surviving three BBT's in a row with level two torso damage? It's classleads man, don't be complaining until aftet they've been released and Monk is still broken.

Probably only possible as a nonartied, low strength monk against an artied infernal (and no arm breaks). Only situation I could see something like this happening in.

Cooper

Assuming monk balance is about 2.3s after latency (sorry it's been a while. I've forgotten a lot of timings), it will take 20 combos to set up most opponents properly (using rhk to negate parry) against most opponents (assuming no dodging or parrying after dodging rhk, which we all know won't happen).

That's a minimum of 46 seconds to try one finishing combination.

Of course, this assumes that the person won't die to double break/bbt/axk, which a lot of people under level 70/80 who aren't tanky will.

Or I could be a serpent and hypno you up in 8 seconds and try my lock combination then.

Iocun

Penwize said:

I also notice a very weird thing about damage kills that I don't see about affliction kills.  I'm not sure what it is, likely a matter of perception, but I find a lot of people complain about huge damage finishers, but I don't find anywhere near as many complaints about things like getting truelocked from dry in 15 seconds or getting enlightened in about as much time.  There's just something about massive damage finishers that has a perception of being way worse.

Well, it depends on how much you can do against it. Affliction kills pretty much always rely on momentum and can be hindered and/or reduced in effectiveness by better curing. Some burst damage kills however are pretty much inevitable if you don't have a certain amount of tankiness. If an affliction class could ensure an immobilized target before starting its main offence, I'm sure there would be just as many complaints about it, but that doesn't happen to be the fact for any common affliction class.

I personally would love to see all classes depend on momentum to a certain degree, as this tends to lead to more exciting and more variable fights in my opinion.

Kafziel

Arditi said:

The best counter to blunt icons would be a poison damage icon.

I know this is a joke post but the reason cutting and blunt work for icons is that there are a lot of resistances to them, which allows the icon to give a real increase to damage. For the less-resisted damage types it's not worth even considering (see: Warlocks getting magic damage icon and being surprised when it only increases their damage like 1.5%)

Penwize said:

I don't find anywhere near as many complaints about things like getting truelocked from dry in 15 seconds or getting enlightened in about as much time.

I dunno about you but 90% of my bitching is about Occies (I just do it to farm forum lols from Jhui though)

no really, endorse classlead 7

Niraaeth

Cahin said:

Jovolo said:

Niraaeth said:

That's not a particularly accurate title for this topic. I'll post a log later, but my AXK will never do even remotely close to that damage. Heck, I had several people tank 3 BBTs in a row with level 2 torso damage, so don't go generalizing like that.

That's a Monk with Strength arties and blunt Icon, not a simple Monk.

Can you post a log of the people surviving three BBT's in a row with level two torso damage? It's classleads man, don't be complaining until aftet they've been released and Monk is still broken.

Probably only possible as a nonartied, low strength monk against an artied infernal (and no arm breaks). Only situation I could see something like this happening in.

I don't keep logs and my memory is horrible, though I think one of the opponents might have been Jinsun, or some other Occie whose name starts with J.

And this I posted a while back.

Niraaeth said:

Blah, blah... Fight with Rexak.

Long story, short, we fight a couple of minutes, I try deliv, breaks and all kinds of stuff but all fail. At the end I pull out full amo: level 2 torso, arm breaks, leg breaks, enfeeble and somehow even 3 bbts and he just laughs in my face tanking them.

Blah.

Rexak was in Dragon form during the fight. No clue about arties and such.

I admit I'm not too good at combat and that my race will suck forever at it, but I will not renounce on my Atavian RP for the sake of combat, especially not if you will nerf Monk anyway. 

Personally, I don't understand why no one has started a topic asking for the removal of the blunt tuning of the Icons yet. As per the arties... they cost a small fortune and for that they get an advantage in combat, I don't see a problem with that.

AXK may do hilarious damage, but at least it requires some prep, but have you fought an uber artied Magi these day?! Geez, I have over 4k health, but if I don't hit and run upon every single attack, I'm dead. And good luck with their hindering abilities.

Echald

Just limit icon bonuses to boring stuff like +1 to a stat or extra regen.

Santar

Echald said:

Just limits icon bonuses to boring stuff like +1 to a stat or extra regen.

This.

Why go through hoops to balance something when this is the easy fix?