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City destruction changes

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  • DunnDunn
    edited December 2013
    Prism. Unphase/earring. Track/earring. There are a plethora of ways to get to a group of people even if those people are entrenched 100 rooms deep. Track/earring in particular has seen a TON of use by you guys. Why stop now? Even track/portal is viable if you don't have earrings.

    Also, tower fades in like 60 seconds.


  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    Dunn said:
    Prism. Unphase/earring. Track/earring. There are a plethora of ways to get to a group of people even if those people are entrenched 100 rooms deep. Track/earring in particular has seen a TON of use by you guys. Why stop now? Even track/portal is viable if you don't have earrings.

    Also, tower fades in like 60 seconds.
    You are assuming Tesha and company had a earring partner logged in at the same time.  Targ also has only a couple of serpents, neither who were around during said raid.

    That said, at least with the range changes its not as lolgriefy as before undermanned cities pretty much just got crushed by dopples and chokes from 50 rooms away.
    image
  • SenaSena
    Anedhel said:
    Rangor said:
    Doesn't shallam have like deliver, pilgrimage and beckon to close on a room?
    Apart from beckon (so easily stoppable), I don't think those skills do what you think they do, if you're planning to use them to get into the bad guys' rooms.
    Can pilgrimage be followed? It's been a long time since I was a priest.

    If so, couldn't you have someone run in and drop a pilgrimage, and then for as long as it lasts be able to travel to anyone that remains in the room?
  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    Sena said:
    Anedhel said:
    Rangor said:
    Doesn't shallam have like deliver, pilgrimage and beckon to close on a room?
    Apart from beckon (so easily stoppable), I don't think those skills do what you think they do, if you're planning to use them to get into the bad guys' rooms.
    Can pilgrimage be followed? It's been a long time since I was a priest.

    If so, couldn't you have someone run in and drop a pilgrimage, and then for as long as it lasts be able to travel to anyone that remains in the room?
    Well our hero running in to drop pilgrimage would still have to navigate through rubble, frozen ground, propped totems, LoS attacks.  Assuming our hero even got to the room, they would also need to pick up/mushroom flamed monolith before laying the pilgrimage.  The rite would also go poof when our hero dies while being off eq for 4-5 seconds (depending on quick-wit and diadem).
    image
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    edited December 2013
    Yes, it can, but you still have to get there, to drop it. So it's not actually a help in getting there, unless you've been there, if that makes sense.

    ETA: Also, Ashtan's pretty good about monos, from what I remember.
  • CooperCooper
    Prisming onto an entrenched group with a Magi is a good idea(TM).

  • AntoniusAntonius
    Sena said:
    Anedhel said:
    Rangor said:
    Doesn't shallam have like deliver, pilgrimage and beckon to close on a room?
    Apart from beckon (so easily stoppable), I don't think those skills do what you think they do, if you're planning to use them to get into the bad guys' rooms.
    Can pilgrimage be followed? It's been a long time since I was a priest.

    If so, couldn't you have someone run in and drop a pilgrimage, and then for as long as it lasts be able to travel to anyone that remains in the room?
    In theory, yes; assuming Ashtan doesn't already have a monolith down or drop one when they see the Pilgrimage laid (unlikely) and that person doesn't die in the process of doing so.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • SenaSena
    Yeah, forgot about monolith.
  • AntoniusAntonius

    Achilles said:
    Sena said:
    Anedhel said:
    Rangor said:
    Doesn't shallam have like deliver, pilgrimage and beckon to close on a room?
    Apart from beckon (so easily stoppable), I don't think those skills do what you think they do, if you're planning to use them to get into the bad guys' rooms.
    Can pilgrimage be followed? It's been a long time since I was a priest.

    If so, couldn't you have someone run in and drop a pilgrimage, and then for as long as it lasts be able to travel to anyone that remains in the room?
    Well our hero running in to drop pilgrimage would still have to navigate through rubble, frozen ground, propped totems, LoS attacks.  Assuming our hero even got to the room, they would also need to pick up/mushroom flamed monolith before laying the pilgrimage.  The rite would also go poof when our hero dies while being off eq for 4-5 seconds (depending on quick-wit and diadem).
    Depending on location, flying makes a lot (if not all) of those irrelevant. Also, no monolith for pilgrimage means no monolith preventing deliver and other forms of instant summoning.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • KafzielKafziel

    Tesha said:
    The "you started it" conversation will lead nowhere beneficial, so lets just not go there.
    But then @Carmell will have no reason to post.

    [spoiler]
    image
    [/spoiler]
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    You're not helping!
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Best. Gif. Ever.
  • TeshaTesha
    The stuff about how to move from x to y will lead nowhere beneficial either, I'm not sure why you guys are making Makarios wade through this. I'm aware of the options, the problem was using them. Lets keep this about the system rather than raiding in general.

     i'm a rebel

  • SilasSilas
    The font stacks are ridiculous, yeah. We raided Ashtan a few days ago and got wrecked twice with 25 stacks. There's no real incentive for defenders to use the other font powers when that's so crippling - especially with how slowly the stacks decay. Could probably just take it out, or have it start the sanctioned raid as Jhui suggested.

    It's okay for people to show forum bravado and say that they personally wouldn't use that font power, but its existence means that a lot of people are going to fall back on it regardless, so it makes more sense for it to be looked at by @Makarios and @Tecton.

  • DunnDunn
    MAKE IT SO, @MAKARIOS.

    image


  • TectonTecton The Garden of the Gods
    Definitely something we're looking into now that there is a variety of empowerments available!
  • KuyKuy
    edited December 2013
    The main problem with raiding in Lusternia is that there is literally no reason to defend.  There's not city destruction or the like.  The best you can do is come in and kill a few loyals that don't really matter.  Supermobs are the only thing that really make an impact, but you need a group of 20-30 people at least to take them out.  Shrines are normally placed on supermobs and can reach ten rooms away, meaning you have to fight in them and can't destroy them.  Any loyals you kill will respawn in a little while.  What generally happens is a group goes into enemy territory, and unless the enemies have a massive number advantage, their best fighters, and their allied orgs coming to help, you get to kill a few loyals, maybe a straggler or two, and leave.

    [And now, the preface: this all comes from my very limited experience so far and my following of this thread.]

    Without a way to sanction outside of kills, the same thing seems to be happening here.  If the numbers are remotely even, it seems to be the case of you go in, wait around, hope people get brave, and leave after wasting an hour sitting and trying to figure out how to pick off people across the city.

    If the goal of the changes is to prevent people from raiding during off-peak, then that goal has certainly been achieved.  However, the current incarnation comes at the detriment of the defenders being given the only means for an enemy force to sanction a raid.

    If you can successfully entrench yourself in an enemy city for an hour, there needs to be a way for you to take advantage.

    The problem, of course, is the same as it was before the changes: an offensive party can just wait until the enemy is logged out, sit in their city for an hour, and take a room.  Given five hours of an inactive city and a stubborn group, that is five rooms destroyed for a few RL days.

    The question I have is: is this really a bad thing?

    Well, yes.  It is.  Cities are clearly more vulnerable with damaged rooms, and having the option of the number of damaged rooms equaling the number of tanks the enemy has and a time proportional to the lack of something better to do doesn't seem too nice.

    However, is one room getting destroyed such a terrible thing?  Of course it is.  It's miserable... but war isn't supposed to be fun for everyone at all times.

    While the desire to make the game we play enjoyable for everyone is admirable, it inevitably will not happen.

    All things considered, it seems like putting the only method of sanctifying a raid in the hands of the people potentially being sanctioned upon removes the gravity of war.  It puts all the power of city destruction into the defenders and removes the potency of successful invades.  The following are a few changes which may help:

    1. Maintain the ability to sanction a raid in its current state.

    2. If a group of adventurers who are both a member of their city's army and enemies to the city which they are invading stay within the walls of the city being invaded without dying within that city's walls for thirty minutes, a raid may be sanctioned by that city.  This gives the defenders even more incentive to defend: if they can successfully kill one person within the enemy raiding party, they get another thirty minutes to define their strategy (or sit on their butts and wave at them).  In turn, this works in tandem with (1) to help the offensive party have a chance at sanctioning a raid and having a little fun.

    3. Create a cooldown for sanctioning.  After a successful sanctioning of a raid, the city which was sanctioned against cannot be sanctioned against again for the next three (IC) days.  Enemies can still enter the city and kill its citizens as usual, but sanctioning will respect this cooldown.

    (1) of course, is already implemented.  (3) does not seem difficult to implement in the slightest.

    (2), however, might be a little difficult to implement.  It does not seem impossible, nor does it seem overly difficult, as the raid timer is currently already affected by the presence of enemies within the city (should the enemies withdraw, the raid timer tics down twice as fast).

    As an alternative to this, I suggest:

    1-b. Maintain the ability to sanction a raid in its current state.

    2-b. The presence of an enemy force within your city for one hour will begin a sanctioned raid.  It only takes one individual to maintain presence, but that individual cannot be phased, in astralform, in blackwind, and must be on the ground level.  At any time should no member of the enemy party be present, this timer is reset.

    3-b. If a raid is sanctioned in this manner, the sanctioning city cannot sanction another raid for five (IC) days, their army exhausted from forcefully occupying an enemy city.

    This creates a situation similar to the first suggestion, but would see its implementation be far simpler (the only truly unique portion of this situation is 3-b).  It also ensures that a group of assholes within one city cannot decide to group up during off-peak hours and raid everyone while they attend to that thing called real life.  While the first suggestion would promote more interaction between raiders and defenders, the second suggestion is far simpler.

    Annnnnnnnnnnnnd I'm spent.

    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • DunnDunn
    I don't see why you need to put a cooldown on sanctions when there's already a five day limiter built into the tank mechanics.


  • KuyKuy
    edited December 2013
    Dunn said:
    I don't see why you need to put a cooldown on sanctions when there's already a five day limiter built into the tank mechanics.
    I thought there was a charge-up time per tank, but a city can hold more than one ready-to-use tank?  If this isn't the case, then it's not a problem.  Having a cooldown is only meant to ensure a city loses at most one room should they be raided when they have no one to adequately defend.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • DunnDunn
    Yeah, but there's still a five day cooldown built into this system. I don't see a reason to add another.


  • KuyKuy
    Dunn said:
    Yeah, but there's still a five day cooldown built into this system. I don't see a reason to add another.
    Whoops!  Looks like I edited before you responded.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • DunnDunn
    edited December 2013
    Raids like that happen all the time. I don't think risk should be removed from the system. Sanctions actually remove risk; XP loss goes away when a sanction begins. Do you want three day periods with XP loss for everyone? Now, XP means dick to me, but to a lot of other people it's a big deal. Sounds like a step towards a different demoralization instead of a solution.


  • JarrodJarrod
    I don't think there's been a problem with sanctioning a raid in any situation where the raiders raided while there were actually defenders around.

    Never happened for Ashtan at least, and we're the most heartless raiders around if you read the forums.

    Overall, I don't think it's a problem, I think raiders just need to be willing to give the defenders a chance in a fight, instead of raiding with over-sized groups. Will that still happen? Sure. Will it be prevented by no-sanction every time? Nope. Ashtan has raided with giant groups in the past, and I know at least once we overstayed because someone dropped a second tank. In the raid that was just attempted there was really no chance at us for defending, so we (Jhui and myself) poked at them a bit, decided it wasn't worth it, and went on our ways (well, Jhui died because he's a scrub but that's expected) without losing anything. Less raiders and we probably would have done something, we were close with the few people we had. Targossas brought that many, we decided it wasn't worth the effort, cause and effect.

    The onus is now on the raiders to make the raid worthwhile to the defenders, instead of forcing the defenders to deal with whatever the raiders want. Good change.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • KuyKuy
    Dunn said:
    Raids like that happen all the time. I don't think risk should be removed from the system. Sanctions actually remove risk; XP loss goes away when a sanction begins. Do you want three day periods with XP loss for everyone? Now, XP means dick to me, but to a lot of other people it's a big deal. Sounds like a step towards a different demoralization instead of a solution.
    I can agree with this.  In the same breath, though, I can't imagine that you guys had very much fun the other night sitting around while we did absolutely nothing.  Granted, you already had a sanction started, so at least your lot got something from it.

    How do you feel about a sanction happening after occupying a city for an hour straight?  If having a cooldown isn't an issue, would this be a problem?
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AlrenaAlrena
    Sitting around for an hour, and then another half an hour to blow up a room in case defenders still don't react? No thanks. I think Dunn's right, and it's up to the players to regulate this and make it work by bringing appropriately sized raid groups. Best chance to make it fun for both parties, I say.
    image
  • KuyKuy
    I'll chalk this up to still being pretty naive, then.  :)
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • ArditiArditi
    We got a level two tank. Woop.

    Also, Naga kill securing is no longer limited to line of sight apparently.

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